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El_Elegante
Jul 3, 2004


Biscuit Hider

How balanced/multi-pronged is the game?

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Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



El_Elegante posted:

How balanced/multi-pronged is the game?

Prey or SS1? The discussion's wandering a bit.

Prey totally has enough variation to do a second+ playthrough, there's a few OP skills but you won't be picking them up in the same run. My only complaint is that the difficulty slider is just the lazy "player takes more damage" variety, especially after SS2 showed how to do it right with reduced lvlups. SS1 is a once-and-done game much like every fps of its era. You get to use all the tools in the same run, the end.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



Mike the TV posted:

It's also not hard by modern standards.

That seems like an odd statement considering lots of old school games were hard as balls and most modern games are designed to hold your hand

ToxicFrog
Apr 26, 2008




Mike the TV posted:

- The wire hacking game sucks. The only thing that's good about it is that it doesn't take you out of action
- Level design is decent, but a lot of things are confusing whether they are interact-able or not. The flavor text for literally every object is kinda cool though. I feel like both points here are ripped straight from the original
- It's not very scary, maybe a little creepy, but that's mostly from mild body horror. It's also not hard by modern standards.
This is all straight out of the original, yes.
- The wire hacking game has always sucked immense rear end and is the main argument for carrying around some logic probes or setting puzzle difficulty to 1
- the level design was great and they got a lot of mileage out of a relatively simple tile-based map format
- the game is absolutely packed with decorative greebles, most of which either can't be interacted with, or can be picked up/moved around/thrown but don't actually do anything, and absolutely everything in the game has its own name and many things had unique messages when interacted with (e.g. trying to use a wall just gives you "can't use paneling" but trying to use a light fixture might give you "bulb needs replacing"); to give you some idea how pervasive this is, take a look at the HTML map -- that's the first level of the game. Turn on "items" and "fixtures" on the left; basically all of those are decorative furniture, labware, etc. LGS were masters of scattering around huge amounts of slightly-interactable stuff to make the world feel a bit more lived-in.
- It's not nearly scary as (say) SS2, but some of the later levels (deck 3, the Groves, and deck 9, in particular) ramp up the creepiness some.

Wafflecopper posted:

That seems like an odd statement considering lots of old school games were hard as balls and most modern games are designed to hold your hand

Have you played SS1? It had four different difficulty settings (combat, puzzle, mission, and cyberspace) ranging from 0 to 3, with the default as all 2s. So, for example, combat 0 has enemies that do not attack unless provoked and have 1 hp, while combat 3 makes all enemies stronger and more aggressive and reduces how often they drop loot; puzzle 0 makes all puzzles auto-solve themselves when opened while puzzle 3 gives you the hardest possible version of each one, etc. Even when it was released SS1 catered to a wide range of skill levels, and the default of 2222 was reasonably challenging without being punishing, and possibly too easy for someone who already has FPS experience.

I don't know if the remake has retained this, but I hope so.

Mike the TV
Jan 14, 2008

Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine



Pillbug

Wafflecopper posted:

That seems like an odd statement considering lots of old school games were hard as balls and most modern games are designed to hold your hand

Everything I came across was very slow and easy to kill.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


Mike the TV posted:

Everything I came across was very slow and easy to kill.

Even Unreal on Godlike difficulty? Mad props.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



He's talking about the SS1 remastered demo you argumentative grognard.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


Serephina posted:

He's talking about the SS1 remastered demo you argumentative grognard.

I'm not arguing tho, but you're right about what they're referencing there.

E - misread

Dyz
Dec 10, 2010


If its the same ss1 demo I played a year or 2 ago then its just part of the hospital level, which means the hardest enemy you encounter are the little robot scorpions and pretty much everything can be beaten to death with the pipe.

Even in the original enemies didn't really get hard until you started facing the tougher robots and cyborgs (security 1 bots can go die in a hole).

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



Mike the TV posted:

Everything I came across was very slow and easy to kill.

I just meant the implication that modern games are harder than old games seems weird, not saying you're wrong that the System Shock reboot is easy

aniviron
Sep 11, 2014


NDS has been really faithful in remaking SS1 which does mean it's easy. It's easy because SS1 is easy- it was balanced around having to use your keyboard as the sole input, which was normal when it came out. There is an implant which gives you a PIP view of behind yourself because turning around to check is slow and cumbersome.

They are going to have to ramp things up significantly if they want the game to be anything but a cakewalk. It's the same enemies, same placements, and same levels but with modern shooter precision.

Samopsa
Nov 9, 2009


Samopsa posted:

Went through the crew quarters, cleared it out, and I'm now going into Deep Storage. Some thoughts:
- The nightmare is super easy. 4-5 blasts of the shotgun and it's dead. Too bad, because the mechanic seems neat. Oh well, at least it doesn't gently caress up the pacing.
- Poltergeists are cool when you first encounter them, but they're kinda eh to fight. They don't do -that- much damage so you can just run up to the center of the disturbances until you notice something invisible blocking your way, and applying some shells to the face.
- I kept all the mind controlled crew alive. That was a neat 'combat puzzle' to solve! I did it with the disruptor gun, and sneaking a bit and prioritizing them so they don't blow their heads of is a nice change of pace compared to regular combat.
- The fake chef was waaaaaaaay too heavily telegraphed imo. You instantly know something is up once you talk to him, and then there are soooo maaany clues that something is up. Really bummed out that you can't do anything else than shoot him in the back tho. I would've loved some more interactivity here.
- The yellow tulip is a cool set-piece, and playing the recording of the song was a fun encounter. The song is a total bop as well.
- Danielle is a cool character. You really get to know the space-dnd crew quite well through only a few audiologs and notes. This is the first time I actually felt some emotional connection to an NPC in the game!
- I had to laugh about Alex not taking his exercise seriously, because he seems like an rear end in a top hat to me, but I couldn't help but see it as a jab against fat people, as he's one of the only heavier characters in the game. Eh.
- I found the (well hidden!) keycard to Alex' escape pod!
- I love that Morgan's bedroom is the same as the starting bedroom in layout. Felt like coming home. The notes Morgan left for themselves are neat too, showing a very cold and calculating person, and telling more about yourself than the subjects of the logs.
- The horror elements are pretty much gone now. I don't mind that much, but they could've done some with some more dread. Enemies are way more out in the open, rooms are well lit most of the time, and I even have a -greater- mimic scope now. Not that mimics pose much of a threat anymore...
- I'm completely flush with resources. I'm playing on hard but I gather difficulty doesn't matter much, just a % bonus to enemy damage and malus to dealt damage. I can just tank damage and eat food to regen, blast hypos and medkits when needed, and I still have full stacks of everything in my inventory.

Back to the arboretum:
- The change to the arboretum once you return is well done. The coral spreading from the GUTS to the rest of the station is very pretty and kinda unnerving. Reminds me of the changes that happen in Hollow Knight with the spread of the infection, only less dangerous.
- The mimics in the arboretum went completely bonkers and were just sprinting around all the time . Not sure if that's intended behaviour!
- I took a trip outside to get to the breached parts of crew quarters, and the shuttle I saw floating around. Not much to see unfortunately, mostly some loot and a very predictable backstory to the shuttle. A missed chance to do something with the Yu's parent's bedroom or something.
- Speaking of missed opportunities: escaping with the pod right now is of course a silly way to end the game, but ending at a game over? really? I was already spoiled about the 'true ending', but I think this is pretty weak.
- Entering Deep Storage, and instantly locking the door behind me? Not cool. Of course, this game has been pretty linear up to this point so it doesn't change -that- much, up till now there hasn't been much reason to actually travel somewhere else for non-story related reasons, except to get the true nanomod fabrication plans.

Another night, another couple of areas done! I finished up Deep Storage and the Cargo Bay this time. A bit less enthousiastic about this part compared to the crew quarters.

Deep Storage
- Overall: kinda meh, small and not much to do/see.
- I liked the verticality of the room, there haven't been much places where you can climb so high to acces locked/blocked rooms.
- The zero-grav area with the weavers was fun, but it starts to get repetitive. I like the zero-g manouvering, but all the combat encounters seem to be cystoids w/ weavers. Would've loved to see more variance there. Some high speed zero-g combat/dogfights outside the station or something would've been really cool.
- I can already see some hooks for side-quests here: the tracking bracelet reset terminal and such. I guess I'm coming back here later!
- Launching yourself out of the station was pretty cool, but the part where you hit your head and black out was a weird non-thing? It wasn't even to hide a loading screen!

Cargo Bay
- Ooh, a timed sequence! This really added something to fighting cystoids/weavers (even though the time limit is very generous). This was actually the first time I used a medkit in ages (I just stormed through the nests to get to the console after getting low on ammo).
- Lots of loot to gather in zero G. Still fun to do.
- Through the makeshift airlock and... there's the first real NPC who isn't in trouble in the game! Took out the phantoms and climbed up to find the rest.
- Whew, this game does not handle multiple speaking npc's in a room well. They keep talking over each other, and the volume is wack. Kinda a bummer, although most don't have much of interest to say. Danielle & the Cook were much more interesting.
- Gathering the turrets and powering up the bay: a decent detour, nothing fancy. I had to hack the turrets because I've got mindjack and psychoshock maxed out now.
- The defense section was fine, but the NPC's blabbing at the same time and their dumb AI kinda spoiled it. Had to reload 3 times because one of these idiots went to stand in front of a turret and got mulched.
- The GUTS is locked down, so I guess I'll be back here. On to Life Support! The story didn't progress -at all- during these two sections, and the side stories weren't that interesting either. I guess the game has now shown pretty much all it's secrets, and I'm also pretty decked out in terms of gear and mods. Maybe it'll surprise me soon, but for now this feels a bit like the final part of the story has already begun.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.




The melee in that SS Remake looks really weak. A dull thud and little impact makes for a placid experience.

The player's sluggish movement makes Ethan from Resident Evil VII look like an athlete.

I though the hacking in Prey was garbo but this is worse.

Dyz
Dec 10, 2010


Inspector Gesicht posted:

The melee in that SS Remake looks really weak. A dull thud and little impact makes for a placid experience.

The player's sluggish movement makes Ethan from Resident Evil VII look like an athlete.

I though the hacking in Prey was garbo but this is worse.

The movement in the original was really weird too. Your character moves like theyre riding a unicycle with a square wheel.

ToxicFrog
Apr 26, 2008




aniviron posted:

NDS has been really faithful in remaking SS1 which does mean it's easy. It's easy because SS1 is easy- it was balanced around having to use your keyboard as the sole input, which was normal when it came out. There is an implant which gives you a PIP view of behind yourself because turning around to check is slow and cumbersome.

It wasn't, and in fact the game absolutely requires a mouse. (A keyboard is, it turns out, mostly optional, but playing the game mouse-only is incredibly cumbersome; it really expects you to move and look around with the keyboard and aim and interact with the mouse, at minimum.)

What it didn't have is mouselook. You can aim at anything on the screen instantly with the mouse, but looking up or down or rotating in place requires the keyboard, which means there's a hard limit on how fast you can do so. This, in turn, means that responding to attacks from above, below, the sides, or behind is more expensive than it would be in a modern game. And the level designers knew this, and there's lots of places with ambushes intended to hit you from the direction you aren't looking because they know how disorienting it can be -- if every enemy showed up in front of you, the game would be much easier than it already is!

I think the main thing that makes it relatively easy is simply that combat, especially in the early game, isn't quickly lethal. Mutated crewmembers move slowly and have no ranged attacks, cyborg drones have a ranged attack but it doesn't do much damage and they aren't very attentive, and neither are particularly durable. Serv-bots and maint-bots are faster than mutants but no more dangerous otherwise. The most dangerous thing you're likely to encounter in the first half of deck 1 is the hopper guarding the lift to the medical offices, but even that you can survive several hits from, and if you have the magpulse it'll go down in one hit. There's no regenerating health, but medical supplies are plentiful (infinite on some decks, including the first one) and your health pool is pretty deep, and in the late game as you start to encounter nastier enemies you also have better implants (like the personal shield generator) to help deal with them.

The upshot is that SS1 is much more about managing your resources and making sure you go into each fight prepared than it is about high-speed dodging or twitch reflexes like, say, Doom; and if you do that rather than just blindly running from fight to fight it's a pretty forgiving game.

E: on reflection it's actually similar to Prey that way: if you try to run-and-gun Prey, especially in the early game, you'll have a bad time, but a bit of prepwork with gloo, grenades, environmental hazards, etc makes most encounters a cakewalk.

quote:

They are going to have to ramp things up significantly if they want the game to be anything but a cakewalk. It's the same enemies, same placements, and same levels but with modern shooter precision.

This is also something people noticed when the fan-made mouselook patch, and later the official Enhanced Edition, were released -- adding mouselook makes the game a lot easier because being attacked from not-the-front is no longer significantly more difficult to respond to, so a lot of the nastier encounters in the game are almost completely defanged.

Maybe in the remake the difficulty will go up to 4, or even 5?

ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 14:10 on May 28, 2020

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


https://twitter.com/bethesda/status...2733414402?s=20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLn3C9MqAjE

cool if this means a few more people learning about arx

i expect this'll be an opportunity to show off some new deathloop footage

Rinkles fucked around with this message at 15:18 on May 28, 2020

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


This would make sense given Bethesda’s track record with VR

https://twitter.com/nibellion/statu...0182376449?s=21

(Not the existing VR add on)

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on


Pillbug

Rinkles posted:

This would make sense given Bethesda’s track record with VR

https://twitter.com/nibellion/statu...0182376449?s=21

(Not the existing VR add on)

Hopefully this isn’t a PSVR exclusive, I just sold my PSVR to my brother yesterday.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Hopefully this isn’t a PSVR exclusive, I just sold my PSVR to my brother yesterday.

No way. At worst it would be timed.

SCheeseman
Apr 23, 2003



Hopefully they're integrating physics-based interactions. If it was done right it could be absolutely incredible but given Bethesda's VR track record there is a fairly good chance that they'll gently caress it up by half-assing the VR controls.

They could just steal from the best. Lone Echo-like zero-g handling, Saints & Sinners weapon handling (though tightened up two handed firearms) etc. Touch screens are easy in VR. More challenging are things like object transformations, I'm not sure it'd be fun to be a first person coffee cup and a third person perspective could be nauseating.

SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Jun 1, 2020

aniviron
Sep 11, 2014


Fallout 4 VR was abysmal but Skyrim was pretty okay. I'd guess it's a moot thing anyway though, Arkane would probably be the ones handling the VR conversion, with the exception that both of those had deals announced with PSVR first and came to PC regardess. I would absolutely love to do Prey in proper VR- hopefully HL: Alyx has given developers a little more confidence in locomotion instead of going full teleport or half-assing things like the single room VR Prey bit.

Lord Lambeth
Dec 7, 2011



The VR add-on that the game already has isn't really any good.

SCheeseman
Apr 23, 2003



Skyrim's VR implementation wasn't much better than Fallout 4's. You still picked objects up by holding a button that isn't grip, causing the object to just float in front of you in the same way object interactions are conveyed on flatscreen. It's outright missing features like being able to drag bodies and water reflections and melee combat is just gesture heavy wiimote waggling as opposed to anything satisfying. It mostly rides on the novelty of VR's immersion in a visual sense, which starts getting stale after you kill the 1000th bandit by sticking a hand out and gently rocking your wrist back and fourth with a sword equipped. Mods fill some gaps but the most glaring issues remain.

I'm just not sure that kind of port is particularly wanted anymore, all lazy ports do is make VRs current limitations more prominent

Guillermus
Dec 28, 2009




Rinkles posted:

https://twitter.com/bethesda/status...2733414402?s=20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLn3C9MqAjE

cool if this means a few more people learning about arx

i expect this'll be an opportunity to show off some new deathloop footage

I own Arx Fatalis on GOG and Steam, I signed on this but there's no link to download it at all, and on the purchase history you only get access to the artbook pdf. Am I missing something?

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Guillermus posted:

I own Arx Fatalis on GOG and Steam, I signed on this but there's no link to download it at all, and on the purchase history you only get access to the artbook pdf. Am I missing something?

you need to use bethesda's own store.

aniviron
Sep 11, 2014


SCheeseman posted:

Skyrim's VR implementation wasn't much better than Fallout 4's. You still picked objects up by holding a button that isn't grip, causing the object to just float in front of you in the same way object interactions are conveyed on flatscreen. It's outright missing features like being able to drag bodies and water reflections and melee combat is just gesture heavy wiimote waggling as opposed to anything satisfying. It mostly rides on the novelty of VR's immersion in a visual sense, which starts getting stale after you kill the 1000th bandit by sticking a hand out and gently rocking your wrist back and fourth with a sword equipped. Mods fill some gaps but the most glaring issues remain.

I'm just not sure that kind of port is particularly wanted anymore, all lazy ports do is make VRs current limitations more prominent

Unarmed, archery, and magic felt great in Skyrim VR; the melee was badly done though, I will agree. I am so sick of titles that lean so heavily on gestural controls as a gimmick that I don't care about some of the old-style gamey stuff that's a bit janky in VR. The locomotion controls were also fairly well implemented and felt good to use, teleportation was just an optional addition.

Note also that I said it was better than FO4, not that's it flawless. FO4 lets you stick your head through locked objects and interact with them from the other side, including doors to things that are quest-locked. Turns out that locks only work from one side in Gamebryo, so you can just open any door you want that way. Whole game is full of poo poo like that.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


aniviron posted:

FO4 lets you stick your head through locked objects and interact with them from the other side, including doors to things that are quest-locked. Turns out that locks only work from one side in Gamebryo, so you can just open any door you want that way. Whole game is full of poo poo like that.

brilliant. that's the sort of thing you might not expect in a full priced release, but bethesda delivers.

isk
Oct 3, 2007

You don't want me owing you

aniviron posted:

Note also that I said it was better than FO4, not that's it flawless. FO4 lets you stick your head through locked objects and interact with them from the other side, including doors to things that are quest-locked. Turns out that locks only work from one side in Gamebryo, so you can just open any door you want that way. Whole game is full of poo poo like that.

Philman
Jan 20, 2004



yo, this game is awesome.

I bought it almost 2 years ago because someone posted about it in the steam thread, and also because of the thread title, but I didnt get into it the first time. I'm giving it another chance now and it owns bones. The presentation is so slick and i'm taking my time exploring as much as I can.

i'll check back into this thread when i finish it because I dont want any spoilers. I just entered the psychotrauma ward and december told me not to do the thing january wants me to do.

Pyromancer
Apr 29, 2011

This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

Philman posted:

december told me not to do the thing january wants me to do.

February is the craziest of them all

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SCheeseman
Apr 23, 2003



aniviron posted:

Unarmed, archery, and magic felt great in Skyrim VR; the melee was badly done though, I will agree. I am so sick of titles that lean so heavily on gestural controls as a gimmick that I don't care about some of the old-style gamey stuff that's a bit janky in VR. The locomotion controls were also fairly well implemented and felt good to use, teleportation was just an optional addition.

Archery is broken, you're able to rack arrows way too quickly. Magic is awkward, with its dumb floaty crosshairs. It was really a bare minimum effort. It may be better than FO4VR but most of the biggest problems are shared between the two.

They're both fairly early VR titles so it's excusable to some extent, but I feel that a big budget VR title that doesn't implement physics based hand interactions with the world is like releasing a FPS game post Quake that has to be controlled entirely with a keyboard.

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