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Phigs
Jan 23, 2019



Serephina posted:

Yea, but do you think people keep track of that? Going loud attracts all guards in a wide radius so you can end up depopulating certain stages if that's all who they have, and that's assuming you kill nothing but nameless NPCs and spare all the coup members who really really deserved it.

And that's the thing, right? Even if it's technically understated, players will have still heard about it and play around it, perverse incentives and all that. Hence the comparison to earlier titles; it's totally on the player if they wish to kill Lebedev, Navarre*, or Gunther etc. You only get a few comments by later characters; we'd have a lot of pissy posts if you couldn't get an ending if you failed to save Paul, etc. Likewise, SHODAN has a throwaway line about installing so many cybermods it looks like you're trying to emulate her machine perfection, but there isn't a huge flashing meter across your upgrade screen labelled "Remaining humanity", why would you gently caress with players like that?

So when new players hear "you can get a good or bad ending depending on how many people you kill", of course they're gonna loving be paranoid about lethality.

I know I'm writing a lot of words about this so I'll stop posting, sigh.

Yeah IMO this kind of thing is very dumb. I didn't use any typhon mods in my one playthrough of Prey because they made that a thing. So I skipped a big part of the game because they made an explicit typhon/non-typhon dichotomy. Just like I didn't kill anyone in my first Dishonored play and never played with any of the lethal toys because they made low/high chaos dichotomy. I don't see what it adds to the games that they keep going for it. All it does to me is make me play with less of the toys they put into the game and presumably have less fun than I would have otherwise.

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Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.


So, don’t?

Aside from being ‘tricked’ by the somewhat erroneous messaging, once you know, just… stop doing that. Nothing is making the player adhere to this internalised set of rules beyond mental attachment, and there’s nothing Arkane can do to prevent that (because the gamer psyche fuckin’ LOVES that poo poo.)

Don’t get me wrong, they shouldn’t make these misleading statements, I’m just saying once you’re cognisant of how misleading they are… if you then pursue the stupid Cheevo, that’s on you.

flatluigi
Apr 22, 2008

here come the planes


or if you truly want to see how the game plays out with those options.... replay the game?

Hannibal Rex
Feb 13, 2010


I think they should just put a couple of buttons at the end, so I can watch both endings by reloading my final save.

Phigs
Jan 23, 2019



Shockeh posted:

So, don’t?

Aside from being ‘tricked’ by the somewhat erroneous messaging, once you know, just… stop doing that. Nothing is making the player adhere to this internalised set of rules beyond mental attachment, and there’s nothing Arkane can do to prevent that (because the gamer psyche fuckin’ LOVES that poo poo.)

Don’t get me wrong, they shouldn’t make these misleading statements, I’m just saying once you’re cognisant of how misleading they are… if you then pursue the stupid Cheevo, that’s on you.

It wasn't about the achievement. They had that ooh Typhon mods will change you story/gameplay element so I went oh okay I'll avoid using those then. I don't really care for my personal enjoyment, that's why I said "presumably" I had less fun. I just think it's dumb they keep on doing these things that cause players to skip content. If it was just me then whatever, but it's not, it's clearly a problem with their approach.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

welcome to
tarsier-ashpool


Hannibal Rex posted:

I think they should just put a couple of buttons at the end, so I can watch both endings by reloading my final save.

Ah, the DX:HR method

Pookah
Aug 21, 2008

🪶Caw🪶







Just started a brand-new playthrough, and, man I had forgotten what Prey is like at that stage.
My last two goes were new game +, so I got all the crazy weird powers fairly fast. It was super fun, but you do lose any sense of being in danger.
Prey when you only have a few basic powers is stressful

A Wizard of Goatse
Dec 14, 2014



Phigs posted:

It wasn't about the achievement. They had that ooh Typhon mods will change you story/gameplay element so I went oh okay I'll avoid using those then. I don't really care for my personal enjoyment, that's why I said "presumably" I had less fun. I just think it's dumb they keep on doing these things that cause players to skip content. If it was just me then whatever, but it's not, it's clearly a problem with their approach.

it's a goofy gimmick run thing they put in to encourage people to try replaying the game relying on less combat-oriented mechanics, and barely gets mentioned in game (I guess in Prey they do tell you that the turrets that generally lose to mimics might get grumpy if you go full Typhon murder machine? oh no). that you have found a self-selecting group of guys who read a bunch about the game endings on forums or wikis or whatever and then refuse to play the game in any way but the gimmick way and then complain about how that's ruined their fun does not mean that's who every game needs to be designed around

A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jan 7, 2022

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



infernal machines posted:

Ah, the DX:HR method

Nah, the OG DX method. It went on record for being that way since some senior dev didn't want people to feel like they'd missed out on stuff when they got to the end of the game.

BitBasher
Jun 6, 2004

You've got to know the rules before you can break 'em. Otherwise, it's no fun.

A Wizard of Goatse posted:

it's a goofy gimmick run thing they put in to encourage people to try replaying the game relying on less combat-oriented mechanics, and barely gets mentioned in game (I guess in Prey they do tell you that the turrets that generally lose to mimics might get grumpy if you go full Typhon murder machine? oh no). that you have found a self-selecting group of guys who read a bunch about the game endings on forums or wikis or whatever and then refuse to play the game in any way but the gimmick way and then complain about how that's ruined their fun does not mean that's who every game needs to be designed around

On Playstation at least if you want to plat you have to do some annoying gimmick runs. They made it a requirement.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007



Nobody is requiring you to get plat in a game.

If I ever make a videogame, I'm going to make trophies that require a nearly impossible level of effort - like literal years spent in game. And I'm going to tell people to not try to get them because they're loving stupid.

BitBasher
Jun 6, 2004

You've got to know the rules before you can break 'em. Otherwise, it's no fun.

KillHour posted:

Nobody is requiring you to get plat in a game.

If I ever make a videogame, I'm going to make trophies that require a nearly impossible level of effort - like literal years spent in game. And I'm going to tell people to not try to get them because they're loving stupid.

That was the Plat for Final Fantasy XI and I know a guy that did it. Thousands of hours. It was absolutely heinous.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



I mean nobody is requiring developers to put poorly thought-out any achievements in their games and yet they still do it??

humans are perverse

A Wizard of Goatse
Dec 14, 2014



Lt. Danger posted:

I mean nobody is requiring developers to put poorly thought-out any achievements in their games and yet they still do it??

humans are perverse

the amount of griping people do about achievements being inconvenient to get itt is absolutely nothing on the level of gamer rage in every channel when something goes on Steam with no cheevos at all

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



We just need a clean bifurcation between those lovely little games that cost $2 at release and are just teeball stands for 100% achievements, and big nasty epics that you can only play for the right reasons

Previa_fun
Nov 10, 2004



Phigs posted:

I don't really care for my personal enjoyment

this is an absolutely insane thing to say in a thread about a video game in a video game forum

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007



I was going to make a joke about a game forcing you to press a button for hours while getting no enjoyment but then I remembered The Stanley Parable did it already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7GAtSIy4-w

There isn't an achievement for it, but there are achievements for other insane things like not opening the game for 5 years, playing for the entirety of a Tuesday, and one called "Unachievable" that literally requires you to edit a config file to get it. 5.3% of players have that last one because people are loving stupid.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



if you're gonna indulge in nudge theory then maybe you should do it well, and not badly. just my two gamer pennies

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...


Grimey Drawer

KillHour posted:

5.3% of players have that last one because people are loving stupid.

5.3% of people have that because the Steam Achievement Manager exists

Phigs
Jan 23, 2019



Previa_fun posted:

this is an absolutely insane thing to say in a thread about a video game in a video game forum

Lol, fair. What I meant to say there was that I enjoyed those games anyway so I wasn't really upset that their systems caused me to play in a way that missed some of their content. I wasn't the one who went into the effort of putting in toys that players skipped because of some dumb meta system. And I have no real stake in whether players enjoy those games. Developers should care though.



I've been thinking the gimmick achievement runs should only unlock after your first play through. So it could read "Complete the game at least once, then complete a playthrough without any typhon mods." That sort of thing really exists to make replays more interesting so might as well restrict it to those explicitly so players feel free to play however they like the first time through. Can also make them non-achievements, some kind of internal system that doesn't affect gamerscore/platinum if devs think the amount of effort required to do all the gimmick runs is too much for players. I know it's a meta system not strictly part of the game, but achievements do influence player behavior so developers should put more thought into how their achievements are sculpting play.

Guillermus
Dec 28, 2009





HenryEx posted:

5.3% of people have that because the Steam Achievement Manager exists

:hmmyes:

Mierenneuker
Apr 28, 2010


We're all going to experience changes in our life but only the best of us will qualify for front row seats.



HenryEx posted:

5.3% of people have that because the Steam Achievement Manager exists

Yet only 2.2% have "Play The Stanley Parable for the entire duration of a Tuesday".

Bogart
Apr 12, 2010

Time to button mash!


What do you guys think would’ve happened if JC pressed all the buttons at once

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Invisible war

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

welcome to
tarsier-ashpool


Bogart posted:

What do you guys think would’ve happened if JC pressed all the buttons at once

Almost too on-brand

Gaius Marius posted:

Invisible war

No, that one made you walk to the ending you wanted, didn't it?

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007



infernal machines posted:

No, that one made you walk to the ending you wanted, didn't it?

The joke is that IW couldn't be sure what the player chose in the original, so they came up with a world where all 3 happened. IIRC, JC merged with Helios and that caused the net to go down and the Illuminati took over in the power vacuum :v:

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

welcome to
tarsier-ashpool


I keep missing all the OG DX references and my only excuse is I actually played that after both IW and HR

aniviron
Sep 11, 2014



I assume that you spoilered that not because you wanted to prevent people from knowing the beginning of a 20 year old game but because you wanted to save people from having to remember that they did that.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



What kind of insane individual plays iw before deus ex

MJBuddy
Sep 22, 2008

Now I do not know whether I was then a head coach dreaming I was a Saints fan, or whether I am now a Saints fan, dreaming I am a head coach.

Gaius Marius posted:

What kind of insane individual plays iw before deus ex

Someone called my name.

Sorry all I had was a pirated copy of Deus Ex someone gave me as a child and I couldn't leave the starting island.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007



aniviron posted:

I assume that you spoilered that not because you wanted to prevent people from knowing the beginning of a 20 year old game but because you wanted to save people from having to remember that they did that.

I did it to avoid spoiling the ending of a really good game, not the beginning of a mediocre one.

Sivart13
May 18, 2003
I have neglected to come up with a clever title

Phigs posted:

So it could read "Complete the game at least once, then complete a playthrough without any typhon mods."

I know it's a meta system not strictly part of the game, but achievements do influence player behavior so developers should put more thought into how their achievements are sculpting play.
I honestly like that a lot

irrespective of the hemming/hawing of the "achievements don't matter you idiots" crowd, I've definitely let achievements change my behavior in certain situations and it would be nice for the devs to keep them out of the way in some situations

I know I don't want to do a Typhon Only / Human Only run in Prey but the fact that there are achievements makes me have to think about whether I want to.

I actually feel relief in games where I know I will never get all the achievements because there's some dumbass "place 3rd in multiplayer 15 times in a row" attainable by no one

flatluigi
Apr 22, 2008

here come the planes


i used to have that issue, but then i just started separating achievements in my head between 'things that want dedicated runs' and 'things that can get in any run, potentially with keeping aware of missable items/content.'

play however you want with the latter, and then return to the game to do the former if you want to replay the game, simple as that

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


What usually happens for me is I attempt it, get a few hours into the game, realise it'd be more fun to play through another way and promise myself I'll do it later.

Then I uninstall the game and never get around to playing it again.

It's a good system

Dyz
Dec 10, 2010


The key to doing a human/typhon only run is to do a no needles run, carry a neuromod all the way to the end of the game, save before you finish the game, then reload the save and use the neuromod to get a typhon/human power.

Easy :v:

BitBasher
Jun 6, 2004

You've got to know the rules before you can break 'em. Otherwise, it's no fun.

Dyz posted:

The key to doing a human/typhon only run is to do a no needles run, carry a neuromod all the way to the end of the game, save before you finish the game, then reload the save and use the neuromod to get a typhon/human power.

Easy :v:

I considered this but jesus that would suck.

Plan R
Oct 5, 2021

For Romeo


I'm into my Typhon-only run and it is a pain in the rear end. No inventory, no weapon upgrades past the first level, no QOL mods. Still I'm enjoying myself!
Just now starting to get enough research for powers.

Already did a Human-only run and that was cake. I figure my fourth playthrough will be No Mods/Kill because it's gonna be tough to creatively murder certain people.

Rev. Melchisedech Howler
Sep 4, 2006

You know. Leather.


Plan R posted:

I'm into my Typhon-only run and it is a pain in the rear end. No inventory, no weapon upgrades past the first level, no QOL mods. Still I'm enjoying myself!
Just now starting to get enough research for powers.

Already did a Human-only run and that was cake. I figure my fourth playthrough will be No Mods/Kill because it's gonna be tough to creatively murder certain people.

Are there actually any mods that adjust the skill-trees etc? Typhon only may actually be fun if I could mod in a bigger inventory and increase psi amount.

aniviron
Sep 11, 2014



Rev. Melchisedech Howler posted:

Are there actually any mods that adjust the skill-trees etc? Typhon only may actually be fun if I could mod in a bigger inventory and increase psi amount.

Typhon only is still fun without that stuff - as long as you beeline to the psychic water quest. Guns? Don't upgrade them, you don't need them. Throw them away if you need inventory space. Psi cap is a bit more annoying but given how little stuff you have to make gun-wise, spamming psi juice out of the fabs isn't tough.

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Plan R
Oct 5, 2021

For Romeo


aniviron posted:

Guns? Don't upgrade them, you don't need them.

I'm only playing on hard but I cannot do without my GLOO gun! Sure, you can't upgrade it past lvl 1 but still.

It hasn't been that difficult and lack of inventory space is the biggest annoyance. Only now, near the end, are my powers enough to melt whatever opposes me!

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