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Ensign_Ricky
Jan 4, 2008

Daddy Warlord
of the
Children of the Corn


or something...


Tenzarin posted:

I rewatched the made for tv movies last night, its almost comically how ignorant and malevolent the common people of the town are. Like how no adults trust the kids and even that kid who the fat kid's family is living with saying that they only took them in because of their "Christian's duty". Its almost like the small town deserves to be preyed upon by a giant spider monster.

Well, the thing is, it's supposed to be because of the giant shapeshifting spider monster that the townsfolk are that way.

But that whole thing with Ben in the TV movie is weird because he's not adopted in the book, it's like the director put that in there just to take a swipe at organized Christianity.

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Ensign_Ricky posted:

Well, the thing is, it's supposed to be because of the giant shapeshifting spider monster that the townsfolk are that way.
I think there's a more give and take with that. The organization of the book is interesting because you get George's death but then the death of a full adult man in the 80s. It's important to set-up that It doesn't exclusively kill children and setting up the rules for what it is willing to do and capable of.

The whole section with the hate crime includes people ignoring eyewitness reports of Pennywise for selfish reasons disguised as just ones, but more important is the eyewitnesses. The attackers are younger with one of them still essentially being a child. But the boyfriend of the man who's attacked sees Pennywise as well, but his whole deal is that he despises Derry. He even describes seeing Pennywise as Derry itself. And I've always taken the reason that he's able to see It is because he sees through Derry's bullshit.

Yeah, It manipulates and controls people, but I don't think the people of Derry give much in terms of resistance.

Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!



Well part of that is because It is Derry. The town was literally built over it. The underlayer of boiling violence and detachment from horror has been a learned behavior for its citizens since the first houseframes were erected. In that regard, Adrian Melon's boyfriend was right; Pennywise is indeed Derry. He's part of its foundation.

LadyPictureShow
Nov 18, 2005
Oh, Jesus fuck. It's like the Nazis opened The Ark Of The Covenant, and I looked.


Tenzarin posted:

I rewatched the made for tv movies last night, its almost comically how ignorant and malevolent the common people of the town are. Like how no adults trust the kids and even that kid who the fat kid's family is living with saying that they only took them in because of their "Christian's duty". Its almost like the small town deserves to be preyed upon by a giant spider

Is the original up on like Netflix or Hulu or anything? It's been forever since I've seen it. Hell, the only part I remember from the movie is Bill taking Audra on his old Bicycle.

Out of all the kids, I'm most interested in Finn Wolfhard as Richie. That kid was great in Stranger Things. And I heard talk that the Duffer Brothers wanted to make/write/direct (don't exactly recall) this update of it, but got turned down because they weren't big names

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


The Original is on Amazon Prime for rent and I am going to watch it tonight because it'll be like watching it new cause it's been 26 years. I remember being really scared by the TV show.

Vicissitude
Jan 26, 2004

You ever do the chicken dance at a wake? That really bothers people.

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think there's a more give and take with that. The organization of the book is interesting because you get George's death but then the death of a full adult man in the 80s. It's important to set-up that It doesn't exclusively kill children and setting up the rules for what it is willing to do and capable of.

The whole section with the hate crime includes people ignoring eyewitness reports of Pennywise for selfish reasons disguised as just ones, but more important is the eyewitnesses. The attackers are younger with one of them still essentially being a child. But the boyfriend of the man who's attacked sees Pennywise as well, but his whole deal is that he despises Derry. He even describes seeing Pennywise as Derry itself. And I've always taken the reason that he's able to see It is because he sees through Derry's bullshit.

Yeah, It manipulates and controls people, but I don't think the people of Derry give much in terms of resistance.

Well, you have to remember that a majority of the people of Derry were born and grew up there. Throughout their whole lives they've been steeped in IT's influence. We know that IT exists as more than just the physical. It's a pervasive influence everywhere and IT uses it to dull the people to letting it effectively run free and do as IT wills. IT can even directly take over someone, like it did Bev's dad. But you're probably right. Living in Derry probably saps any resistance you have. Whether it's just worn down by long exposure or if IT strips away the will to resist I dunno. But it doesn't take much to spur the townspeople into action or inaction.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



I noticed some talk about how Georgie's death will be shown in an ultraviolent manner and we'll actually see Pennywise as a Lovecraftian thing briefly as it happens. I'm not totally sure what I think about that. On the one hand I mean, of course that's stupid because at that point in the story you don't know who/what Pennywise is, and Georgie's body is actually found but IIRC just missing an arm but is otherwise intact. And that was part of what had the parents not giving a poo poo about the kids quite as much (along with all the other reasons regarding the town/It/etc.) since he died horribly but in just such a way that it got dismissed as a bizarre accident and the family was guilty about it because of the flooding and so on.

On the other hand...

While maybe not as pervasive as Hannibal Lecter or the Xenomorph, I can understand wanting to do stuff a little differently since everyone knows Pennywise is a monster and not a clown. And there's some potentially cool stuff they could do with it if they wanted to keep with the nightmarishness where maybe anyone who witnesses/is a victim of Pennywise sees horrifically violent stuff being done but when adults find the body it's like Georgie where one almost think its intact except for one part missing or something.

I don't know I'm skeptical that this might end up being more like a Nightmare on Elm Street movie or something, I still want to see this though.

Tenzarin
Jul 24, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 48 hours!


Taco Defender

Georgie would of been pulled into the sewers though, right? IT pulls a kid through a sewer pipe. Why does it leave the bodies of those 2 kids in the first place?

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


^ I thought that was from a script that isn't being produced.^

Vicissitude posted:

Well, you have to remember that a majority of the people of Derry were born and grew up there. Throughout their whole lives they've been steeped in IT's influence. We know that IT exists as more than just the physical. It's a pervasive influence everywhere and IT uses it to dull the people to letting it effectively run free and do as IT wills. IT can even directly take over someone, like it did Bev's dad. But you're probably right. Living in Derry probably saps any resistance you have. Whether it's just worn down by long exposure or if IT strips away the will to resist I dunno. But it doesn't take much to spur the townspeople into action or inaction.
Yeah, I think it just takes away from the book if you simply write off the adult characters as being normal people being brainwashed. Part of it is that a lot of the metaphor of It is how unreasonable adults seem to kids. Sometimes it's because the pressures of the real world trap adults into patterns of poo poo that realize is silly or even wrong when they take a step back from it and sometimes it's because adults are just being selfish assholes. And sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the two.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

íHola SEA!


Yeah the key is they are normal people who AREN'T being brainwashed

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



DeimosRising posted:

Yeah the key is they are normal people who AREN'T being brainwashed

I'm gearing up to reread the book, but I think it's a little of both, which makes it even more effective: some of them are being subconsciously influenced by this ancient evil, and some of them are just pricks. King does a great job in general, but especially in that book, of juxtaposing supernatural evil with very human evil. Like Jack in the Shining; the hotel makes him worse, but the bad parts are already there.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

íHola SEA!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

I'm gearing up to reread the book, but I think it's a little of both, which makes it even more effective: some of them are being subconsciously influenced by this ancient evil, and some of them are just pricks.

It's sort of a literalism thing. Cthulhu the clown is "influencing" them, but he's a metaphor and nothing they do is outside the realm of normal human behavior. So they're brainwashed by the deadlights and/or social conformity, exploitative atomization, privacy as opposite of community, whatever. Pennywise is ultimately no better an excuse for being evil than all that poo poo.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



DeimosRising posted:

It's sort of a literalism thing. Cthulhu the clown is "influencing" them, but he's a metaphor and nothing they do is outside the realm of normal human behavior. So they're brainwashed by the deadlights and/or social conformity, exploitative atomization, privacy as opposite of community, whatever. Pennywise is ultimately no better an excuse for being evil than all that poo poo.

Yeah it also leads to an interesting "which came first?" thing that the book touches on in its more cosmic moments.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

íHola SEA!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Yeah it also leads to an interesting "which came first?" thing that the book touches on in its more cosmic moments.

Extending that metaphor, King is questioning whether society sucks because humans suck, or humans suck because their society is incidentally hosed. He's a fairly cynical guy but seems to come down for the latter more often than the former.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



DeimosRising posted:

Extending that metaphor, King is questioning whether society sucks because humans suck, or humans suck because their society is incidentally hosed. He's a fairly cynical guy but seems to come down for the latter more often than the former.

It's interesting because he definitely is capable of portraying some of the bleakest, darkest things of which humanity is capable (like the stuff about the young budding serial killer in It, Jesus) but in interviews and stuff like On Writing he seems pretty quick to describe himself as essentially an optimist, which feels unusual for the horror genre. I think you're right about what side he comes down on there though, he's definitely distrustful of institutions, but is willing to go to bat for the essential goodness of people.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


He's talked about it before when talking about his sobriety but he does believe in God and he follows AA tenements. It's one of the things he credits as being sober and what gives him strength so it makes sense that he is a optimistic person now. However, if you read his works and interviews prior to sobriety he was pretty cynical.

He is most certainly a different person from then and now. A lot of that has to do with him being a sober person.

EvilTobaccoExec
Dec 22, 2003

Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

Ensign_Ricky posted:


But that whole thing with Ben in the TV movie is weird because he's not adopted in the book, it's like the director put that in there just to take a swipe at organized Christianity.

Pretty sure he's not adopted in that movie either. I think it was actually something from the books. Ben is from a single parent family and poor enough to live in the same area as Bev. And the reason he didnt know anyone was because he and his mom had just moved there to live with relatives after losing their own home.

TheBigBudgetSequel
Nov 25, 2008

It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.


Hollismason posted:

He's talked about it before when talking about his sobriety but he does believe in God and he follows AA tenements. It's one of the things he credits as being sober and what gives him strength so it makes sense that he is a optimistic person now. However, if you read his works and interviews prior to sobriety he was pretty cynical.

He is most certainly a different person from then and now. A lot of that has to do with him being a sober person.

His belief in God comes out a bit in The Girl who loved Tom Gordon, where he talks about faith quit a bit. took me by surprise as I read it, but I feel like it is certainly a product of post-getting hit by a van/sobriety that lead him to that point.

TheBigBudgetSequel fucked around with this message at Apr 4, 2017 around 04:46

Huggybear
Jun 16, 2005

What a real "white ally" looks like.

"Let me just barge into the minority forum and tell all these blacks what they're doing wrong!"


TheBigBudgetSequel posted:

His belief in God comes out a bit in The Girl who loved Tom Gordon, where he talks about faith quit a bit. took me by surprise as I read it, but I feel like it is certainly a product of post-getting hit by a van/sobriety that lead him to that point.

He's had a hosed up life for sure, but every single one of his novels has redeemable characters that often start out knee deep in poo poo, either personal or experiental and they usually win in the end (not his short stories which are really fun if you haven't read them). In his novels the really reprehensibly people are just as multi-dimensional as the good ones, and he gets in their heads (this is what King is good at) and really fleshes out the depths of their inhumanity.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


He's like an earthier Dickens.

Malcolm Excellent
May 20, 2007


Buglord

I've never read IT and haven't seen the original in years... Would someone mind spoiler blocking the controversial scene you guys are talking about?

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003


Yams Fan

Malcolm Excellent posted:

I've never read IT and haven't seen the original in years... Would someone mind spoiler blocking the controversial scene you guys are talking about?

I'm not going to spoiler it because everyone should know

Two words: Child Orgy

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Malcolm Excellent posted:

I've never read IT and haven't seen the original in years... Would someone mind spoiler blocking the controversial scene you guys are talking about?

After the kids fight IT the first time, they get lost in the sewers. They all have sex with Bev, in turn, to create a long lasting group bond and use that power of the bond, etc. to get out of the sewers.

It's a strong symbolic point that worked with all the themes in the book, but making that explicitly happen and describing it is pretty weird while you're reading it (as an adult, as a kid, I didn't care).

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



It also goes into entirely too much detail that it probably didn't need to which kinda weakens any symbolic value in favor of "did I really need to hear discussions on dick size?"

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



ImpAtom posted:

It also goes into entirely too much detail that it probably didn't need to which kinda weakens any symbolic value in favor of "did I really need to hear discussions on dick size?"

Wasn't Mike (the black kid) the largest, too? Come on.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!


Fun Shoe

I think the detail is just something King can't turn off, its how he writes. He develops characters by letting the audience into their extremely detailed inner monologues, so when he wrote a teen orgy it was no different.

scuba school sucks
Aug 30, 2012

The brilliance of my posting illuminates the forums like a jar of shining gold when all around is dark

There's also an unwritten rule that any discussion on the Internet or especially SomethingAwful has to mention that scene EVERY loving PAGE.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!


Fun Shoe

scuba school sucks posted:

There's also an unwritten rule that any discussion on the Internet or especially SomethingAwful has to mention that scene EVERY loving PAGE.

Why even fight it anymore, at this point the posts about how we shouldn't mention it are more annoying than the actual posts that mention it.

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003


Yams Fan

Basebf555 posted:

Why even fight it anymore, at this point the posts about how we shouldn't mention it are more annoying than the actual posts that mention it.

Pretty much, I've come to accept it as just a fact of life

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007



Timeless Appeal posted:

^ I thought that was from a script that isn't being produced.^
Yeah, I think it just takes away from the book if you simply write off the adult characters as being normal people being brainwashed. Part of it is that a lot of the metaphor of It is how unreasonable adults seem to kids. Sometimes it's because the pressures of the real world trap adults into patterns of poo poo that realize is silly or even wrong when they take a step back from it and sometimes it's because adults are just being selfish assholes. And sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the two.

I think one possible point of inspiration for IT was the famous case of a woman being sexually assualted on a pool table, while the patrons of the bar watched. It was in MA, and plausibly before the book was written, and it was huge in the time. I think the town was even called something like Derry? This is just off the top of my head. But the everyday malevolence of small towns is the biggest King theme (though I've only read like 6 or so of his books).

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Doctor Rope

IT may be my favorite of King's books. The interweaving of past and present works so well with the characters gradually remembering what happened in the past. And all the bizarre details, like how Pennywise has an alias as Bob Gray, or at one point is present at a huge shoot-out in the past and is noticed to cast no shadow. There's so much in there, maybe the only way to tell it completely in motion would be a one or two season TV series.

I don't want to get my hopes up too high, it'll be very hard to forget Tim Curry's performance, but I hope they manage something distinct.

(Trying to sort of move the thread along, here...)

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

Shageletic posted:

I think one possible point of inspiration for IT was the famous case of a woman being sexually assualted on a pool table, while the patrons of the bar watched. It was in MA, and plausibly before the book was written, and it was huge in the time. I think the town was even called something like Derry? This is just off the top of my head. But the everyday malevolence of small towns is the biggest King theme (though I've only read like 6 or so of his books).

Are you talking about the case that The Accused was based off of? I think that's a stretch. More likely King just wrote himself into a corner like he usually does and went full on drunken stream of consciousness with it.

Malcolm Excellent
May 20, 2007


Buglord

Well sheesh. That's pretty yucky. Glad it wont be in the new film.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!


Fun Shoe

BiggerBoat posted:

Are you talking about the case that The Accused was based off of? I think that's a stretch. More likely King just wrote himself into a corner like he usually does and went full on drunken stream of consciousness with it.

If we're throwing out cases that would have potentially influenced King's Derry, Kitty Genovese is more likely. It was a very famous case from the mid-60's, so King would likely have been aware of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



I think it's probably safe to say King was aware of both, they were both big stories and as was mentioned the Cheryl Araujo case did occur in New England.

some guy on the bus
Jan 21, 2006

This avatar was paid for by the Silent Majority.

We know one murder case definitely influenced Derry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charl...(murder_victim)

deoju
Jul 11, 2004

All the pieces matter.


Nap Ghost

I think King said the clown element came from John Wayne Gacy.

Also there was a gay-bashing murder contributed to the opening too.

Edit: ^^^ Yep, that one.

Electromax
May 6, 2007
trying to resist the fear

The Black Spot sequence was one of the more disturbing ones for me in the book. Saw a little clip of it in the trailer, too. Seems likely that it's based on real events outside of accidental bar/club fires but I kind of don't want to know.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

"Are you telling me that the Patriots swarm has gone rogue, Ted?"
"... It's worse than that."


What is the Black Spot sequence for someone who never read the book?

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What is the Black Spot sequence for someone who never read the book?

It's basically Mike's father telling a story about his army days (guest starring Dick from The Shining) where they dealt with institutionalized racism by building their own club, making it better than the white officer's club, and then it got burned down by the KKK (or a vaugly-renamed offshoot, I forget) and a lot innocent people burned inside. It's by far the most mundane of the "Derry" stories but that is what makes it creepy.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Apr 4, 2017 around 21:36

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