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Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Man I just finished this and I haven't had a show that just WRECKED me like this since Dear Zachary (which still keeps the crown because it's a documentary).

It hit home for me on a lot of notes, having known a couple of people who killed themselves, one particular kid in high school was an acquaintance who ran away from home because his home life was terrible and he only had a few good friends. After we got the news he shot himself, the local school rear end in a top hat kept making suicide jokes about him to the one kid who was a genuine friend and was torn to pieces. Man.

I think the (spoilers needed? Oh well)rape, while maybe not necessary, really brought everything together, and showed why Jessica's rape was such a big deal through the tapes.

Only real criticism is what a few have mentioned here, it's not like she didn't know that Clay was an incredibly awkward teenager who had no clue how to talk to girls, and she did make it difficult for him to understand why she pushed him away.

They really did circumvent a lot of stereotypes in the show too. Clay was the awkward teen, but he clearly didn't have self esteem issues and was proud of being who he was, and I dug that.

Lots more to think of but man...wrecked.

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Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Yeah I think that was kind of the point of him being #12. She knew the tapes wouldn't get past him - she was hoping the rest of the group would come forward and do something about it

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

cant cook creole bream posted:

I just went through the show and enjoyed it quite a bit. But after reading some of the posts around here, I have to agree that there are some real issues I overlooked especially with regard to her mental state.

Committing suicide is the epitome of an unhealthy decision and a human body actually feels a survival instinct which makes you doubt that decision. The only way that mental safe guard gets bypassed is if it's severely weakened by a mental imbalance. While her perception might have been a bit negative at the end (for example she exclaimed that Clay hated her when she talked to the counselor.) it never really felt like she was spiraling.

By the end she made it sound like she carefully weighted all the pros and cons and made a rational, logical decision as a deterministic reaction to the given events. And I hate the sort of message that sends.

If you ever feel suicidal, you're thoroughly broken and incapable of making decisions. It's not your fault and you must not feel guilty about it but at that point your brain is an active enemy to yourself and you need professional help.

Maybe I am a bit harsh here, but, discounting martyrdom, I don't believe that any physical healthy person, who has committed suicide was at a mentally stable point in their lives.

EDIT: I feel kind of lovely now, for saying that a bunch of desperate dead people where crazy, but in some sense, that is my opinion.

She was pretty clearly unstable and had serious mental issues. She had some genuinely terrible things happen to her, but she also saw some of the other things that are just facts of high school as other slights (friends dropping her for more popular people, etc.)

She sounded like she had a clear head, but I think it was pretty clear that she had major issues. I don't even see her "giving life another chance" on the 13th tape as a legitimate attempt. She grabbed the razor blades at the same time as the tapes, brought the tape recorder and intentionally recorded the counseler. I think maybe she hoped that he would say something to change her mind, but ultimately her decision was made and that final tape was just to wrap things up and make a statement about the lack of support the school offered.

Also, I really, really hope this doesn't get a second season. It's a fully contained story and doesn't need a second chapter. Honestly, I rolled my eyes at the chest full of guns. Seriously, does every show have to have a school shooter these days?

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
First episode is the worst. I think it picks up after that. I probably would have only checked out the first if I hadn't been lazy on the couch and autoplayed the 2nd.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Lampsacus posted:

Talking to this show with my psychology friends (clinical, etc) and they had some criticisms. Mainly that it should never be ok to show self harm/suicide/sexual assault etc on camera. I disagree. I also feel in this terrain you could criticize any attempt in any manner so in order for this stuff to be brought into culture we really need to just suck up the criticisms/messiness and just do it. Which is what this show does (well).

I think the show did a terrifyingly excellent job of making sure that the suicide scene was as savage and uncomfortable to watch as possible. This wasn't a "quick slit and she drifts off" scene, it looked horrific and honestly I turned away for a few seconds. And I'm a giant fan of the horror genre so I've seen fake deaths of every imaginable method.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Hahaha yep I was on about episode 3 when I posted on the Couch Chat thread "Maybe this is old man Medullah speaking here, but do high school kids get all tattooed up including full tribal bands these days???

I'm glad I'm not the only one that was bothered by that.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Justin has a massive one on his chest and there's a locker room scene where a couple other dudes have them.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

SalTheBard posted:

I went to High School with a "Bryce". I don't know where he is or what he is doing. He wasn't at the 10 year reunion. He was a scumbag and I hope he's changed.

I've known two Bryces in my life - one was a year older than me in high school and was in the top 5 bullies, and the other was a sleazy scumbag that I worked with for a bit after college.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Yeah, for a scene that we knew was coming, knew exactly what happened (no surprise on the method), it was seriously disturbing. The jagged cuts, yelps of pain, not turning the water off and doing it fully dressed...man, that was vicious.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
I don't know about romanticizing it. I think that almost everyone that watched the show agreed that she had severe mental illness. Sure it painted the picture of the villain, but also caused completely unnecessary guilt to the others who may not have deserved it.

I doubt anyone watching saw suicide as her best option - it was obvious that so many of her problems could have been resolved by talking to someone - whether a psychiatrist, or a genuine friend.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
I was probably looking way too deep into it, but my assumption was the counselor's wife was going into labor - they made a point to show he had a newborn post-suicide, so the constant calls coming in I took to be his wife. Again, assumption, but my thoughts were that he probably called her right back when Hannah left and we didn't see him hauling rear end to get home to her.

I "liked" it because it was just more proof that she had already made up her mind and was hoping for someone to notice - when it was not THAT obvious that she was crying for help.

Ultimately that's what made this show amazing for me, it wasn't the story of a perfect girl that was constantly abused - she was deeply troubled and while genuine terrible things happened to her, she pushed those away that would have gladly helped. She was flawed, everyone was flawed.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Mulva posted:

Any teen that sees the suicide in this show and thinks "Yeah, that's what I'm going to do" was already checked out. It's slow and painful and very, very bloody and there are like a million easier ways to get the job done.

e: And also nobody gets any comeuppance for how they treated her, not really.

Not to mention that with the exception of a couple of truly horrific acts, most of the things that happened to her weren't as awful as you were expecting. Sure they were dick high school moments but the show was less revenge and more "pay attention to your children and friends because mental illness is a bitch, completely unpredictable and cries for help are sometimes hard to notice"

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Ugh they're giving the show a second season. This really needed to be a one season mini series.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
I've said it before in this thread - The fact that the villains weren't really that bad, and the worst offender wasn't even on the list, is one of the reasons the show really resonated with me. It gets a lot of poo poo for "romanticizing suicide" and showing how "suicide is a good way to get revenge", but ultimately it's a story of a SEVERELY mentally ill girl who didn't reach out for help even when an arm was dangling above her.

I'm not spoiling stuff because it's done at this point, but the 13th tape really showed how committed she was to doing it. She said "Maybe the counselor will save me today, maybe he'll be the one to change my mind" - yet she took the tapes and razor blades before she even went to see him, and had the recorder running.

Yes, the counselor did a poo poo job and should have taken her more seriously. But I think the show did a good job of portraying that he was on edge, his wife was about to give birth (and honestly my takeaway was that the urgent calls during his Hannah session was his wife going in to labor and he had to drop everything to get to her). Again, the allegations of rape should NOT have been ignored and he should lose his job, but he was distracted and sitting in front of him was a girl who was "known for drama".

My ultimate takeaway of the show is "holy poo poo high school is terrible now thank you social media" because I was bullied like crazy in school but at least that ended as soon as the bell rang.

I do not want a second season - none of these stories need extended. But hey, America.

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Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Well it was bound to happen eventually.

I'm sure the kid had no history of mental illness and was perfectly adjusted until he watched the show.

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