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cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





the rampage thing actually wasn't as much of a problem years ago, for a number of reasons. the first one is the stamina system: prior to the introduction of the stamina system all c-saber rampages were cut short by one potential victim eventually getting a punch off on the guy that randomly floored him for 5 seconds, at which point he was immediately murdered with his own weapon. Or sec would wing him with one taser round and he'd be on the ground for 30 seconds. If you were trying to rampage you could get stunned with one hit and it instantly meant you were hosed. Now you can eat like 10 punches or 4 or 5 taser bolts without getting grounded, while I'm pretty sure a c-saber is still an instant stun or at least shreds your hp so fast that it's gonna win any straight up fight.

this would not by itself be enough, as even with that advantage the crew outnumbers you at least 20 to 1 and the sheer mass of extinguisher swinging randos should eventually wear you down, but they've now also added what are basically the equivalent of FPS health pickups in the form of patches and those autodoc things as opposed to the far more laborious processes of bruise packing every individual body part and having to go make yourself some bicar and then inject it, so even wave after wave of hooting assistants with blunt objects can take a looong time to burn through the effective health pool of a prepared rampageman.

even then, security has plenty of tools to deal with them. shotguns, flashbangs, batons. All capable of taking them down, especially if there are a couple of sec officers working together, and after a few pacifying rubber slugs to the mouth the traitor should be subdued well enough to escort them to the nearest airlock and get them settled in to their new long-term accommodations in the endless black void of space. Except that at some point the culture shifted, and now people normally consider it bad form to actually attempt to stop antags, leading to security usually being unplayed or consisting of like, one guy who actively goes out of his way to avoid doing his job.

but still, even with a major advantage, a guy fighting a series of 1v1 or 1v2 slapfights surely can't go 35 and 0, round after round, every round, forever. No one is that good. But people have started to act like they are. To hear people talk about what's his face or so and so or whoever the current one is, they're a god. Untouchable. The Mike Tyson of clicking sprites. King poo poo of BYOND Mountain. to even dare challenge them is the peak of hubris. No, best to just sit there and hope it doesn't happen to you, and if it does just accept fate and bitch in deadchat. instead of the reality, where they're merely better than average at clicking sprites and if people hadn't mentally built them up like they were Zeus striding through the realms of man idly smiting peasants with bolts of divine lightning most of their rampages would probably end 6 or 7 dudes in, when they'd lost the element of surprise and someone manages to get lucky or a couple of crew get together and hit em at the same time.


basically the problem has many contributing factors and would be difficult to actually solve without just hurling the entire server into the great pit of "Rules For Antagonists" that every other server has fallen into over the years and never come out of, and nerfing specific in-game items isn't really going to do a goddamn thing about it, although it might be a good idea anyway

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Justin Credible
Aug 27, 2003

happy cat

It all seems to kind of... depend on things. A few times a week I would do artillery pod runs before they had to be loaded. When they were as strong as RPG shots. The following nerfs ended up happening:

Artillery pods have to be loaded with limited, very expensive ammo.
Firing rate and damage was reduced.
My personal method of making it happen involved killing the x drone. It used to drop 1mil credits for the severe danger of killing it. It no longer drops anything but a few thousand.

These are all punitive nerfs directly applied to how I was doing this. Maybe one or two others did arty pod runs? I was the main culprit for sure. This is why I don't like just nerfing everything. When does anyone see an artypod at all anymore? Ever? Why not just remove it from the game if you have to set up such hurdles to use it, plus there are way more effective ways to do similar stuff to the station and worse.

Why change the x drone to drop almost nothing? Because one or two players could pull off killing it?

Btw it took me around a dozen traitor rounds where I died to the x drone and did nothing cus I was dead, to even get the method down.

This is what I mean by 'depends'. I can't say with certainty what it depends on, but stuff like nerfs and changes doesn't feel evenly applied when looking at a cohesive whole. Like there doesn't seem to be a consensus on 'this is how things should be'. It seems to be kind of arbitrary and on who's being more or less targeted 'cus they have specific methods they've developed on their own.

Btw I think every one of the nerfs I mentioned were undocumented changes aside from the ammo requirement.

Greader
Oct 11, 2012


Dumb idea: Once a player accumulates a certain amount of direct deaths they gain some sort of debilitating effect as they slip into insanity from all the deaths they cause. Could start with stuff like random cackling/bursting into laughter and slowly turn into stuff that actually effect gameplay. Maybe have certain roles and antagonists be immune to it, so that wizards won't go insane from doing their job or a busy sec having to deal with nuke-ops won't go crazy from defending the station, but a traitor who got sent in to steal the captain's hat and arrange an unfortunate accident to the CE might become more than a little unhinged if they decide to depopulate an entire space station on their own (and in turn, have a harder time doing so as they continue).

Guess this would also encourage using more indirect ways of killing people, depending on how it is/can be implemented.

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

If you LP what I LP
And if you work retail like I work retail
You would also scream like I scream


Impliment a hitman grading system. After x amount of kills they start losing points. Did they not bother doing their goal? Score penalty multiplied by the people they killed. Higher score means you're more likely to become an antag. Also score penalty for calling back the shuttle.

Inadequately
Oct 9, 2012


It's kind of neat to see how this conversation evolves in a space not dominated by Goon admins. It's fairly refreshing to have the issue discussed openly without admins shouting everyone down, going 'no it's not a problem, you're the problem' and eventually just going 'shut up about this or else'. (Granted, that doesn't mean they haven't tried.) I doubt it'll lead to a solution, but it's nice to have the issue acknowledged as an actual problem instead of being immediately told 'no it's not, drop the subject'.

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

It's a lovely morning on the forums, and you are a horrible goose.




The perfect solution is obviously to make kills as a traitor reduce your karma, so if you go on a huge rampage you don't get to be a traitor again for like 50 rounds. People using creative methods to circumvent this will lead to more Fun, which is good for the game as a whole.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



One of the solutions many other servers use is having security basically be counterantagonists with off the hook equipment and the support of the station. Like you can't cut a camera or kill a dude without an alert being generated and security swarming the place.


Its not... intrinsically bad? It leads to cops and robbers which is fun rather than cops AND robbers vs everyone else.


HOWEVER


The d-bags who go hard as antagonists in the original problem than immediately swarm to security roles because its pretty much the same thing but a more consistent output of 'fun' which in the case of a powerless shithead is being a violent jerk with a golden ticket to gently caress with others.


I was musing on the idea of all security and command roles requiring as much off time as on time so you're basically jobbanned from security if you already played a round of security last round and you stay jobbanned till you play a decent amount of time (like, a couple of hours, a percentage of the round time maybe?) in a non security role... or a special 'off duty' role (for more of a target painted on your face) which makes sense to me, being forced onto the vulnerable side of the power exchange would dissuade the hardcore dipshits back to waiting for their shot at antagonist rather than getting their consistent valid hunt on. Plus it could lead to a situation in which you as antagonist finally get a straight shot at officer dipshit without his fancy guns and armor.

Willfrey
Jul 20, 2007



Fun Shoe

There is a karma system?

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Willfrey posted:

There is a karma system?

I mean, there is a system named Karma that has no purpose at the moment iirc.



Honestly the real Karma system is the individual specific code based exceptions baked into random features to gently caress with people :V

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011



Make it so ghosts can actively interfere with an antag (or anyone else). Let ghosts right click an antag and click 'haunt', haunt adds debiliating modifiers to that player and it gets worse the more ghosts are haunting him. This way a murderboner quickly starts getting hosed up as the people he kills haunt him.

5 ghosts or more and you're basically a clown and have a chance to fumble every action.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

IF I COULD BE ANY KIND OF FLOWER I'D BE A BIG ANGRY COCK

Demiurge4 posted:

Make it so ghosts can actively interfere with an antag (or anyone else). Let ghosts right click an antag and click 'haunt', haunt adds debiliating modifiers to that player and it gets worse the more ghosts are haunting him. This way a murderboner quickly starts getting hosed up as the people he kills haunt him.

5 ghosts or more and you're basically a clown and have a chance to fumble every action.
cue 10 players a round suiciding on start and immediately going on antagonist hunts (more if someone sees a wizard/nuke op)

SnotGrumble
Jun 4, 2003

All men live in fear of him and his Moxie.


Does the technology exist that would allow multiple rounds to be hosted on the same server simultaneously? Perhaps when the number of ghosts meets some percentage, spin off a new round, allowing dead people to start playing again quicker while the antag does his rampage in the previous round.

SnotGrumble fucked around with this message at 13:51 on May 28, 2020

Plastik
Oct 14, 2005

ARE YOU TELLING ME SITTING HERE DOING NOTHING ISN'T HELPING? DAMN, WELL YOU JUST CONVINCED ME NOT TO TRY AT ALL!


Lipstick Apathy

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

cue 10 players a round suiciding on start and immediately going on antagonist hunts (more if someone sees a wizard/nuke op)

That's still fun for everyone but the antagonist, which makes it better than a rampage by a huge margin.

Also you could disable haunting for suicides. Make it so people have to work and cooperate if they want to run a Ghost Squad gimmick. And it could open the door to things like seances and busting ghosts, so there's a lot of room to play in the space as a developer.

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010





Bread Liar

Plastik posted:

That's still fun for everyone but the antagonist, which makes it better than a rampage by a huge margin.

Also you could disable haunting for suicides. Make it so people have to work and cooperate if they want to run a Ghost Squad gimmick. And it could open the door to things like seances and busting ghosts, so there's a lot of room to play in the space as a developer.

"Not suicide" is impossible to track because there are plenty of ways to off yourself instantaneously in ways that are impossible to differentiate from actual murder.


Motherfucker posted:

One of the solutions many other servers use is having security basically be counterantagonists with off the hook equipment and the support of the station. Like you can't cut a camera or kill a dude without an alert being generated and security swarming the place.


Its not... intrinsically bad? It leads to cops and robbers which is fun rather than cops AND robbers vs everyone else.


HOWEVER


The d-bags who go hard as antagonists in the original problem than immediately swarm to security roles because its pretty much the same thing but a more consistent output of 'fun' which in the case of a powerless shithead is being a violent jerk with a golden ticket to gently caress with others.


I was musing on the idea of all security and command roles requiring as much off time as on time so you're basically jobbanned from security if you already played a round of security last round and you stay jobbanned till you play a decent amount of time (like, a couple of hours, a percentage of the round time maybe?) in a non security role... or a special 'off duty' role (for more of a target painted on your face) which makes sense to me, being forced onto the vulnerable side of the power exchange would dissuade the hardcore dipshits back to waiting for their shot at antagonist rather than getting their consistent valid hunt on. Plus it could lead to a situation in which you as antagonist finally get a straight shot at officer dipshit without his fancy guns and armor.

Goonstation has (had) a weird culture issue where Security is always seen as absolute tools and calling out antagonist actions makes you a fun-hating loser. I think at least the first one's been changing, but it's another one of those cases where you have to be careful how you change things because if you gently caress up you end up with TURDS 2.

---

There was a change made recently that deleted antag weighting, which should make frequently-seen rampagers show up less often.

The way it worked before was that, if you had antag roles off, you'd accumulate played rounds, but not antag rounds (obviously). So when you turned antag roles back on, you were all but guaranteed several antag roles in a round as it tried to bring it back into balance. There were a handful of issues with the weighting system outside of this too, mind, but hopefully this will keep people from getting antag over and over again.

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011



Lunchmeat Larry posted:

cue 10 players a round suiciding on start and immediately going on antagonist hunts (more if someone sees a wizard/nuke op)

I donít see a negative here.

Hell let ghosts haunt anyone, not just antags and allow the chaplain to banish haunting. Introduce a ghostbuster role.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


i remember a round years ago where i spawned as traitor miner. the miner next to me asked out of the blue what round is it and i told him traitor. he then said thanks and suicided. i used his ID to do a few murders so that was useful imo.

neogeo0823
Jul 4, 2007

NO THAT'S NOT ME!!


Demiurge4 posted:

I donít see a negative here.

Hell let ghosts haunt anyone, not just antags and allow the chaplain to banish haunting. Introduce a ghostbuster role.

Clearly, this would be a job for some weird chaplain/mechanic hybrid role.

Willfrey
Jul 20, 2007



Fun Shoe

Motherfucker posted:

I mean, there is a system named Karma that has no purpose at the moment iirc.

Aaah so no real negative effects. For some reason I had a brain worm of a rumor that like, killing captains cat or killing monkeys would tank your traitor % chance

I would always think about that when as a chef I'd get in huge fights with monkeys

Willfrey
Jul 20, 2007



Fun Shoe

Zamujasa posted:

Goonstation has (had) a
The way it worked before was that, if you had antag roles off, you'd accumulate played rounds, but not antag rounds (obviously). So when you turned antag roles back on, you were all but guaranteed several antag roles in a round as it tried to bring it back into balance. There were a handful of issues with the weighting system outside of this too, mind, but hopefully this will keep people from getting antag over and over again.

Aaah makes sense. I swear every time I get back into the game after a hiatus I'd roll traitor on the first fresh round

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Willfrey posted:

Aaah so no real negative effects. For some reason I had a brain worm of a rumor that like, killing captains cat or killing monkeys would tank your traitor % chance

I would always think about that when as a chef I'd get in huge fights with monkeys

It's bees, not monkeys.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Zamujasa posted:


Goonstation has (had) a weird culture issue where Security is always seen as absolute tools and calling out antagonist actions makes you a fun-hating loser. I think at least the first one's been changing, but it's another one of those cases where you have to be careful how you change things because if you gently caress up you end up with TURDS 2.


The trick is that a few antagonists, like traitors for example, are tasked less with 'antagonism' and more 'here is a chance to do the widely disruptive clown stuff you wanna do anyway'. So Security is seen as the guys who hunt down the guys who make the round fun. I'm more into the idea that an antagonist is an antagonist whose only job is to antagonize and who only needs to make their own fun. If you just let it be like that it generally works out the most fun because security is allowed to do hero poo poo and be the dumb validhunters they wanna be, the crew is predisposed to call out antagonist poo poo and the antagonist actually gets to be a total space rear end in a top hat as much as they like.

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





it's bizarre to me that getting caught out as an antag no longer results in you immediately launching into an impromptu recreation of the Doom boxart with assistants as demons, and that people somehow think that a complete lack of tension where you just let antags bumble around doing whatever they want is more fun

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010





Bread Liar

cock hero flux posted:

it's bizarre to me that getting caught out as an antag no longer results in you immediately launching into an impromptu recreation of the Doom boxart with assistants as demons, and that people somehow think that a complete lack of tension where you just let antags bumble around doing whatever they want is more fun

It was some culture change where pointing out antag actions was seen as a killjoy / tryhard-type deal, as if it was "their" round. There's always been a little bit of this; like an AI spotting a traitor five minutes into the round is generally advised to let it slide so the round can 'get going', or the guidelines on not just outright murdering antags once they've been outed ("valid hunting")

This is purely conjecture, but I wonder how much of it came out of feeling like antagonist rounds were rare, and thus this behavior was a sort of self-preservation for when they got their own antag rounds. The weighting system really caused a lot of chaos in that regard, and with it being removed I wonder if we'll see things even out again.

I Said No
May 21, 2007

jesus dude ur gonna kill someone with that av

Motherfucker is basically Q from Star Trek - he's a total dick and will gleefully troll the poo poo out of you, but he's rarely outright wrong.

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





Zamujasa posted:

It was some culture change where pointing out antag actions was seen as a killjoy / tryhard-type deal, as if it was "their" round. There's always been a little bit of this; like an AI spotting a traitor five minutes into the round is generally advised to let it slide so the round can 'get going', or the guidelines on not just outright murdering antags once they've been outed ("valid hunting")

This is purely conjecture, but I wonder how much of it came out of feeling like antagonist rounds were rare, and thus this behavior was a sort of self-preservation for when they got their own antag rounds. The weighting system really caused a lot of chaos in that regard, and with it being removed I wonder if we'll see things even out again.

The original version was "the AI immediately scanning all cameras and Sec scouring the station with thermals 30 seconds into the round so that when the traitor prints out his fake moustache in a toilet stall a SWAT team immediately breaches the doors and lights up the bathroom with automatic shotguns", which everyone rightly hated because it meant a solid portion of rounds had nothing happen in them since every antagonist was hosed from the get go.

However backlash against that eventually slippery sloped its way into "the crazed psychopath carving his way through the station's crew slipping on a pool of his latest victim's blood and a security officer running up to help him up and politely hand him back his butcher knife", which is equally bad in the other direction.

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010





Bread Liar

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say it kinda goes back and forth, and finding a way to keep the balance in the middle is more a culture problem than it is something easily solved with more rules.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



The trick is Antagonist skill varies. Some can totally thrive in that environment others feel like they're getting cheated because antagonist roles and rolls are random.


Plus wizard vs say, changeling is all over the road in terms of skill requirement. It'd probably feel more comfortable if you could know you're not being passed over on precious antag rounds just because you're not so great at clicking till horizontal.

HukHukHuk
Jun 27, 2011

I am the sound of cats and hairballs.


I dont think there will ever be rampages of old again, but i think the occasional display of melee robustness is fun to watch.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



I keep saying the trick is because I have brain damage.

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010





Bread Liar

HukHukHuk posted:

I dont think there will ever be rampages of old again, but i think the occasional display of melee robustness is fun to watch.

If nothing else replicating the olden days "TK + Hulk + camera viewer + c-saber = sudden nigh-instant death if you stand next to a security camera" days are gone, though there was some bizarre charm in seeing it happen.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

IF I COULD BE ANY KIND OF FLOWER I'D BE A BIG ANGRY COCK

Zamujasa posted:

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say it kinda goes back and forth, and finding a way to keep the balance in the middle is more a culture problem than it is something easily solved with more rules.
I often describe Space Station 13 players as like the Donkey Kong 64 minigame where you have to spin turtles around to keep them balancing a plate (I know plate spinning is a term generally but it's more fun this way).

hey don't really have agency or common sense the way normal people do, so you need to keep a firm eye on how many turtles are flailing at any given time and give them a good spin, even if you know that will shortly result in the opposite problem of them spinning too fast.

Your goal as admin/lifestyle guru is simply to keep the turtles as close to the center as possible and therefore happy, because left to their own devices they will spin/slow too much and blame you. Any true balance is fleeting and temporary.

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Willfrey
Jul 20, 2007



Fun Shoe

I remember late joining into an eerie depopulated station. Not blown up but depowered. No AI. I wander around just trying to find another player. Eventually am able to charge a battery, break into the bridge, call the shuttle. Then I get launched by a hidden mechanics trap that sends me (and apparently everybody else) into a set of crushers.

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