Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

Could Twelve's speeches in Flatline and Zygon Inversion count as outrage?

Vinylshadow fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 1, 2017

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Or the time he lashes out in anger later in the same episode and Bill makes fun of him for it.

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007

Bicyclops posted:

"Never have I had time for the luxury of outrage."

The Doctor lies.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Fil5000 posted:

Or it cuts to footage of Sixs big speech at the trial.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Bicyclops posted:

"Never have I had time for the luxury of outrage."

*David Tennant barrels out of his TARDIS behind him, yelling*

The moment he said that, I knew it was a "we never, EVER, interfere." [ immediately starts interfering ] bit. Fortunately, Capaldi sells it.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

Vinylshadow posted:

DOCTOR 10: Two point four seven billion.
WARRIOR: You did count!
DOCTOR 10: You forgot? Four hundred years, is that all it takes?
DOCTOR: I moved on.
DOCTOR 10: Where? Where can you be now that you can forget something like that?

I didn't like this quote. How would the Doctor possibly count how many children where on Gallifrey that day?

Also, he's in action would only result in the Daleks slaughtering them all any way and then going on to destroy even more of the universe.

It's such a creatively bankrupt dilemma.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

PriorMarcus posted:

I didn't like this quote. How would the Doctor possibly count how many children where on Gallifrey that day?

'2.47 billion' isn't exactly a concrete number. I feel like he didn't 'count how many children were on Gallifrey' as 'remembered the population statistics from around that time', which isn't unreasonable, it's like you remembering the rough population count of the country you live in.

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

PriorMarcus posted:

I didn't like this quote. How would the Doctor possibly count how many children where on Gallifrey that day?

Also, he's in action would only result in the Daleks slaughtering them all any way and then going on to destroy even more of the universe.

It's such a creatively bankrupt dilemma.

What dilemma?

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007

PriorMarcus posted:

I didn't like this quote. How would the Doctor possibly count how many children where on Gallifrey that day?

He could estimate? He could ask the TARDIS? There's probably a bunch of ways he could find out, but I'm not imaginative enough to list them.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

McGann posted:

Letting Youtube autoplay after this gave me this piece of awesome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0DfuhREAds

The First Doctor was straight up Machiavellian and I love it

How quickly people forget the fourth companion, Mr. Rock

navyjack
Jul 15, 2006



Vinylshadow posted:

Still waiting for someone to splice together a series of flashbacks to the Doctor talking about remembering the dead - for example, from the 50th Anniversary Special

WARRIOR: If you have been inside my head, then you know what I've seen. The suffering. Every moment in time and space is burning. It must end, and I intend to end it the only way I can.
MOMENT: And you're going to use me to end it by killing them all, Daleks and Time Lords alike. I could, but there will be consequences for you.
WARRIOR: I have no desire to survive this.
MOMENT: Then that's your punishment. If you do this, if you kill them all, then that's the consequence. You live. Gallifrey. You're going to burn it, and all those Daleks with it, but all those children too. How many children on Gallifrey right now?
WARRIOR: I don't know.
-
WARRIOR: Did you ever count?
DOCTOR: Count what?
WARRIOR: How many children there were on Gallifrey that day.
DOCTOR: I have absolutely no idea.
WARRIOR: How old are you now?
DOCTOR: Ah, I don't know. I lose track. Twelve hundred and something, I think, unless I'm lying. I can't remember if I'm lying about my age, that's how old I am.
WARRIOR: Four hundred years older than me, and in all that time you've never even wondered how many there were? You never once counted?
DOCTOR: Tell me, what would be the point?
DOCTOR 10: Two point four seven billion.
WARRIOR: You did count!
DOCTOR 10: You forgot? Four hundred years, is that all it takes?
DOCTOR: I moved on.
DOCTOR 10: Where? Where can you be now that you can forget something like that?

Annnnnd now I need to rewatch that episode.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009

cargohills posted:

What dilemma?

Yeah, I'm not getting that either. War and Ten aren't suggesting that they shouldn't have pressed the button, just that killing billions of kids is a big enough price that it should weigh on their mind and conscience enough to matter, and are aghast that Eleven seems to have forgotten that.

Of course, in the end, the solution is that it is actually NOT acceptable, and the three of them (or 13 of them) fix things but that scene isn't about that, as much as if you were about to murder someone and then met yourself from 10 years later and not only do you seem well-adjusted, but you don't even seem to remember the name of your victim. It's the War Doctor worrying that this action breaks him to the point where he's a totally apathetic or amoral monster.

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮
The BBC iPlayer will have a binaural version of the next episode on the web immediately after it airs on BBC One.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Cleretic posted:

That's kind of a matter of 'stopped clock is right twice a day'. His horribly exploitative and barbaric fuel manufactory happened to produce a fuel better than coal, especially for what we know about coal now, but that wasn't why he was doing it.

Not only that, to be fair the people who were working in the mines chose to work there and could in theory not do so (yes their opportunities weren't great but still...). Not so much the people who were at a fair on the ice expecting to have a good time and not randomly die.

MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005

Box of Bunnies posted:

Ditch Rove and Bajo, get Jordan from Axis of Awesome back as a regular. Just her, Tegan, and Adam with whatever weekly guest would be brilliant.

Bajo rules, way better than having Stephen Bloody Conroy on there

Bicyclops posted:

"Never have I had time for the luxury of outrage."

*David Tennant barrels out of his TARDIS behind him, yelling*

That's one of the good things about that Whovians show, they showed the Doctor saying that and then immediately a montage of the Doctor being outraged, including 12 just bashing up the TARDIS console.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: Keys, comics, books and con-jobs - the Doctor has terrible friends.

Long Synopsis: Four individual stories taken from different periods of the 8th Doctor's life detailing a singular adventure with a different Companion. A futuristic archeological dig/Time Lord trap with Bernice Summerfield; unraveling a scam in the Doctor's name with Fitz Kreiner; tracking down a long out-of-print and rare comic book with Izzy Sinclair; and pre-emptively fixing mistakes he MUST make with Mary Shelley.

What I Liked/Disliked:
  • The format. It makes a nice change to step outside of the regular continuity of Big Finish's main range and just tell several stories that aren't part of some larger ongoing thing. Each story is self-contained and resolved with only one "episode", meaning nothing outlives its welcome and if one of the stories isn't particularly to your liking it isn't long till it is over. The does however mean that you don't really get time to get to know any of the companions, outside of Mary Shelley and the pre-established character of Benny you have two characters that have to provide a brief summary of meeting the Doctor and becoming a companion so we can jump straight into an adventure already in motion. Izzy and Fitz are pre-existing companions too, but they only existed in the books and comics that predated the Big Finish audios so they fall in a grey area of having pre-established characteristics/personalities but having to be written as an introduction to an audience that probably largely is unaware of them. Mary Shelley is a new companion too (there was a 4 page comic the previous year with her in it), but it works for her because this story serves as an introduction of her as a companion, as well as paying off a long-running tease through McGann's entire run that he had a history with Shelley.

  • The humor. There is some fun stuff going on through most of the stories. Some of it is hit and miss, but it is largely used well to offset drama or tension or to completely undercut characters who are taking themselves far too seriously. It's heavy use in the middle two stories (and the first includes a lot of snarky back-and-forth) helps the final story that is almost entirely played straight. The way the Doctor and Benny escape a dangerous alien predator is both funny and cements an important plot point that answers the Doctor's own queries from near the start of the story and hammers home the danger of their situation. Plus there's the pleasure of hearing Benny grumpily admit she misses the 7th Doctor after realizing the 8th doesn't have carefully laid out 5th-Dimensional chess solutions and is largely just blundering his way happily through the adventure. The third story with the reveal of who the antagonist actually is and their explanation for what turned them into a villain is a little on-the-nose but still well handled, especially with Izzy's reaction. Unfortunately the comedy of the second story and the character of Fitz didn't really work for me, the character reminded me a bit too much of Thomas Brewster, albeit a more affable and charming one than the bluntly stupid Brewster and his blatant self-interest. Fitz at least appears to have his heart in the right place even if he isn't adverse to a bit of a con-job for his own benefit. The "dumb" janitor is horribly written though and the reveal of what is really going on with him is even more insulting because how it makes all the other characters feel stupider for having fallen for it. The Doctor's resolution for the fourth story and his irritation at himself about what he's doing/going to have to do is quite a bit of fun too.

  • The inspiration. There is a loose theme of inspiration running through the four episodes, as the Doctor serves as an inspiration for better or worse for the actions of protagonists AND antagonists. Benny's dig is based entirely around the search for Time Lord technology and the actions of a cult based on a very loose understanding of that race and the Doctor in particular. Alien Defence Incorporated uses the Doctor's reputation for shameless advertising in the knowledge it'll draw the actual Doctor out so they can execute their nefarious plan to try and get him to actually endorse them for real!. But the most blatant inspiration is the one I like the least, as it follows one of my pet peeves in fiction: a character turning out to be responsible for some great (or not so great) act of creation/imagination. The Doctor effectively lays out the entire story of Frankenstein to Mary Shelley, which basically turns Mary Shelley from the creator of one of the most influential and beloved pieces of gothic horror fiction in history (and arguably one of the first great works of Science Fiction) into somebody who just wrote down something around the framework provided by somebody else. It's the kind of thing that bugs me, as I feel it detracts from the person's achievements, but I have to admit loving the Doctor's final line chiding Mary for mixing up the Doctor and the monster's names.

Final Thoughts:

The Company of Friends is an easy listen, broken up as it is into four distinct stories. It can be listened to all in one lot or broken up over days or even weeks, interspersed with other stories for when you want something to listen to but can't commit a couple of hours to a full story. McGann is as always in fine form and it's neat to get a sampler of different companions outside of the usual line-up, especially as they're taken from other media and serve as a nice nod to the existence of these other non-television adventures of the Doctor's, particularly the wilderness years stuff. It's attempts at humor don't always hit, largely because it's four different writers, but that also means that different people will probably find different things funny, and that there's a better chance of there being something for everyone in there. It also introduces a "new" recurring companion for the 8th Doctor, even though it is one we've suspected/had teased ever since McGann's first appearance in Big Finish.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 10:48 on May 4, 2017

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

Mary's Story has one of my favourite closing lines in Doctor Who: "Remember - Frankenstein is the name of the monster, and not the name of the Doctor."

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I actually got all angry the first time he said it because it's the wrong way around, then I realized that was the joke since he was referring to the events of THEIR story :sweatdrop:

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Astroman posted:

Not only that, to be fair the people who were working in the mines chose to work there and could in theory not do so

You what mate

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
There's so much wrong with that I don't know where to start

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Well in theory I guess a lot of them could have chosen to starve to death instead? :shrug:

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS

Jerusalem posted:

Well in theory I guess a lot of them could have chosen to starve to death instead? :shrug:

Nonsense. There was a fully functional welfare state, they would have been fine*!




*sent to a workhouse, seperated from their spouses and/or children, and possibly still starve anyway if they looked at the governor funny, or alternatively die horribly from an easily treated disease that the in-house medical officer didn't know how to treat because he was either completely inexperienced or completely terrible

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Children as young as five worked in the mines in Regency times

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
Intelligence is knowing Frankenstein is the name of the doctor.

Wisdom is knowing Frankenstein is the name of the monster.

My wife used Big Finish's version of the story for extra credit in her English class while teaching the book. It's really well done if anyone's interested and it goes on sale from BF.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Or the time he lashes out in anger later in the same episode and Bill makes fun of him for it.

Isn't there a little remark from Bill or The Doctor that he doesn't have time to get outraged because he's just always outraged?



Cleretic posted:

'2.47 billion' isn't exactly a concrete number. I feel like he didn't 'count how many children were on Gallifrey' as 'remembered the population statistics from around that time', which isn't unreasonable, it's like you remembering the rough population count of the country you live in.

Even then, the number isn't the point. The point is that one day the Doctor actually sat down in one of his darker moments and did the math to work out the number of children he killed with the Moment. And then did his damnedest to forget it, which is something The Doctor of all people shouldn't have done.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

:lol: At literally taking the whole cult of personality responsibility thing to its logical extreme and applying it to Dickensian work conditions.

"Those folks in the mill towns didn't have to move there!"

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
https://join.skype.com/bot/df8df5db-cec4-4c9a-a047-e869e61f3223

The BBC is running some manner of interactive skype game where you help 12 find the Key to Time.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

jivjov posted:

https://join.skype.com/bot/df8df5db-cec4-4c9a-a047-e869e61f3223

The BBC is running some manner of interactive skype game where you help 12 find the Key to Time.

quote:

Written by Joseph Lidster.

Not today, Satan.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Oh yikes. I didn't catch that bit

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Astroman posted:

Not only that, to be fair the people who were working in the mines chose to work there and could in theory not do so (yes their opportunities weren't great but still...). Not so much the people who were at a fair on the ice expecting to have a good time and not randomly die.

Though if the baddie gave a fig about human lives he would have fed the poopwhale cows. Or sheep. Or pigs. Or geriatric horses destined for the glue factory. That's assuming the poopwhale will only eat living things (some wild animals are like that) if it isn't so fussy he could fed it bundles of off-cuts and offal from the slaughter houses.

Presumably it didn't evolve to eat just humans (or the Doctor has made a terrible mistake) so the only reason it isn't eating animals is because there are migrating deer or seals or whatever on the ice in the middle of London, and it's captors decided promoting the frost fair was cheaper than feeding it livestock.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS

Bicyclops posted:

Not today, Satan.

And then you get Skyped by YOURSELF AND YOU ARE DEAD AND SO IS A RELATIVE YOU HAD THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT BEFORE.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.

Astroman posted:

Not only that, to be fair the people who were working in the mines chose to work there and could in theory not do so (yes their opportunities weren't great but still...).

It's sci-fi but let's not go completely mad now

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.

Facebook Aunt posted:

Though if the baddie gave a fig about human lives he would have fed the poopwhale cows. Or sheep. Or pigs. Or geriatric horses destined for the glue factory. That's assuming the poopwhale will only eat living things (some wild animals are like that) if it isn't so fussy he could fed it bundles of off-cuts and offal from the slaughter houses.

Presumably it didn't evolve to eat just humans (or the Doctor has made a terrible mistake) so the only reason it isn't eating animals is because there are migrating deer or seals or whatever on the ice in the middle of London, and it's captors decided promoting the frost fair was cheaper than feeding it livestock.

And now I'm worried about that elephant from the opening scene

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Facebook Aunt posted:

Though if the baddie gave a fig about human lives he would have fed the poopwhale cows

He clearly didn't, but it's bringing to attention something the series should really do its best to avoid (at least in the current incarnation) - that the Doctor only gets involved with individual Bad Things That Happen and doesn't tend to go after structural problems so much any more. It's a very modern liberal view (Trump is a problem, the systematic inequality which drove people to vote for him can just be swept under the carpet, that kind of thing)

MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 23:31 on May 3, 2017

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

Cerv posted:

And now I'm worried about that elephant from the opening scene
I'm sure it became a lovely wastebasket or umbrella stand.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

MrL_JaKiri posted:

He clearly didn't, but it's bringing to attention something the series should really do its best to avoid (at least in the current incarnation) - that the Doctor only gets involved with individual Bad Things That Happen and doesn't tend to go after structural problems so much any more. It's a very modern liberal view (Trump is a problem, the systematic inequality which drove people to vote for him can just be swept under the carpet, that kind of thing)

I'm going to go and look up the last time the Doctor started a good proper revolution. I've a nasty lurching feeling that it might just have been The Happiness Patrol...

Well Manicured Man
Aug 21, 2010

Well Manicured Mort

Trin Tragula posted:

I'm going to go and look up the last time the Doctor started a good proper revolution. I've a nasty lurching feeling that it might just have been The Happiness Patrol...

It's been a while since I've seen it, but Planet of the Ood maybe? Arguably the Gangers two-parter as well.

Also, the Series 9 premier had the "your sewers are revolting" line.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Trin Tragula posted:

I'm going to go and look up the last time the Doctor started a good proper revolution. I've a nasty lurching feeling that it might just have been The Happiness Patrol...

I was thinking about it and I can't really think of anything he instigated himself. There are a few cases of him toppling a leader like Harriet Jones (former Prime Minister) or supporting in principle revolutionaries like the Ood even if he didn't necessarily agree with their actions, but nothing where he showed up and set about completely upending the entire system largely just because he can.

Edit: Yeah the Gangers is probably the closest thing I can think of.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

MrL_JaKiri posted:

He clearly didn't, but it's bringing to attention something the series should really do its best to avoid (at least in the current incarnation) - that the Doctor only gets involved with individual Bad Things That Happen and doesn't tend to go after structural problems so much any more. It's a very modern liberal view (Trump is a problem, the systematic inequality which drove people to vote for him can just be swept under the carpet, that kind of thing)
There have been a few storylines where he's been called out as someone who dives in, has an adventure then runs away.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

Jerusalem posted:

Harriet Jones (former Prime Minister)

Yes, we know who she is

  • Locked thread