|
Cleretic posted:There wasn't really anything egregiously bad about any of the Monk episodes individually, they were all kinda mediocre. The problem is they didn't string together well Agreed. All three were perfectly fine episodes, but they needed to be more than just fine. Like you said, they didn't even have the benefit of John Simm's Master hamming it up to distract from the stuff that didn't make any sense. Barry Foster posted:Face the Raven, Heaven Sent and Hell Bent was a three parter. It's relative quality overall, I leave up to you to decide Face the Raven is a solid B. Hell Bent is a B- The average across all three episodes is A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ because Heaven Sent is that loving good 
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Agreed. All three were perfectly fine episodes, but they needed to be more than just fine. Like you said, they didn't even have the benefit of John Simm's Master hamming it up to distract from the stuff that didn't make any sense. My only complaint about Heaven Sent - Whenever someone says to me "I watched Doctor Who up until the new guy I couldn't get into his episodes [ros sic]" I start getting flustered and try to tell them to watch Heaven Sent but then I have to explain that, for it to have any context, it's the middle of a three-parter, the first episode of which is basically a multi-series culmination but that they should watch it all anyway because Peter Capaldi owns.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:43
|
|
|
The problem is that Peter Capaldi owns but that a lot of the scripts in season eight wrote him as entirely too harsh (even as a Hartnell fangirl the poo poo he was pulling in The Caretaker put me off for a bit). The characterisation has gotten a lot better and his Doctor is frickin' great (as much as there's the whole "girls don't like him" thing, I in my late 20s have entirely come around on him since the rocky start, my best friend in her early 30s who is the definition of Tennant Fangirl really likes him and has the last few weeks told me how much she is going to miss him when he's gone, and my mother in her early 50s who first saw Tennant and described him as "the best looking Doctor Who" but has this year been watching with me and has expressed how much she likes Capaldi and will be disappointed when he's gone) and apart from the Monk trilogy he's finally getting a solid run of stories with a good companion (I liked Clara well enough but I know she carried a certain amount of baggage with the "impossible girl" moniker).
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:56
|
|
|
If someone said to me that they were only ever going to watch one episode of Doctor Who I would definitely tell them to watch Heaven Sent; there is some continuity in it but it's either not strictly relevant to the plot of the episode itself or easy enough to get the gist of. Really the only thing that I can imagine confusing someone who isn't a regular viewer is that there's no way for them to know that at the end we're seeing Gallifrey the home planet of the Time Lords.Jerusalem posted:Agreed. All three were perfectly fine episodes, but they needed to be more than just fine. I would actually disagree that part 3 is fine, imo it really fell short. Part 2 is fine I guess, but it lives or dies by how good part 3 is. Extremis with a couple of minor alterations could more or less be a stand-alone story and frankly bearing Parts 2 and 3 in mind it should have been
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:01
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:If someone said to me that they were only ever going to watch one episode of Doctor Who I would definitely tell them to watch Heaven Sent; there is some continuity in it but it's either not strictly relevant to the plot of the episode itself or easy enough to get the gist of. Really the only thing that I can imagine confusing someone who isn't a regular viewer is that there's no way for them to know that at the end we're seeing Gallifrey the home planet of the Time Lords. I remember I put together a battery of 'suggested first episodes' for every new-series Doctor at some point, broken down into categories, but I honestly wouldn't pick Heaven Sent for Capaldi. That's not because of quality, though, but because I'd be assuming that if they're interested they'd want to see more like it, and Heaven Sent stands so unlike the rest of Who that there's not much to say if they liked it; what do you recommend from that point? The one I'd pick for Capaldi, if it's any single one, would be Flatline. The Boneless are weird and unfamiliar to even the Doctor, leading to a pretty good standalone without any bullshit in the way. It's got some tiny seeds of external stories that might pique curiosity, but ultimately aren't needed for the story. And it fits pretty comfortably into a standard genre of stories, letting there be some natural pairs if that's the sort of thing they like. Flatline could pretty easily lead you in a few directions that could play well depending on what they like, the only place a Heaven Sent introduction can lead is 'disappointment'.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:32
|
|
|
Heaven Sent is definitely one of the best episodes the show has done. Hell Bent, I get sort of bored with the drawn out Gallifrey stuff, with the blustering President and the regenerating guard and the Dalek basement, but I do like the interactions between the Doctor and Clara. I think the overall arc of the season was presenting that the Doctor, having lived lifetime after lifetime, you'd think, would be better at dealing with grief, but if anything, is worse at it, and makes bad decisions to prevent himself from having to grieve. That idea, that this horrible feeling is not one that you get used to, but that you get more and more tired of suffering through it as you're forced to experience it again and again, is one that I think is kind of sweet and very Doctor Who. There were some problems with Ashildr's execution, but the idea to have her a contrast, someone who becomes numb to grief and becomes less human because of it, was an interesting one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:01
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Heaven Sent is definitely one of the best episodes the show has done. Hell Bent, I get sort of bored with the drawn out Gallifrey stuff, with the blustering President and the regenerating guard and the Dalek basement, but I do like the interactions between the Doctor and Clara. I think the overall arc of the season was presenting that the Doctor, having lived lifetime after lifetime, you'd think, would be better at dealing with grief, but if anything, is worse at it, and makes bad decisions to prevent himself from having to grieve. I didn't like the Doc killing the general in Hell Bent. I mean yes, he had regenerations left, but he totally murdered that personality purely as a distraction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:12
|
|
|
Huh? The General basically asked the Doctor to shoot him so that they could have time to get away.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:19
|
|
|
Even so. Doesn't sit right with me. Not even from a "the doctor doesn't kill" standpoint, which is one of those truisms that patently isn't, but in this context, I just don't like it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:31
|
|
|
Fil5000 posted:I didn't like the Doc killing the general in Hell Bent. I mean yes, he had regenerations left, but he totally murdered that personality purely as a distraction. You don't understand why he did it though. The whole point was a simple unspoken understanding between the two that the General is obligated to stop the Doctor with everything he has at his disposal, even if he doesn't want to. The Doctor can't allow that to happen and thus they are at an impasse with the only way out being through the General. The General knows this, and he's practically telling the Doctor "shoot me, the time it takes me to regenerate will give you a head start".
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:52
|
|
|
It's not meant to sit right with you, the Doctor is the villain in Hell Bent.Cleretic posted:I remember I put together a battery of 'suggested first episodes' for every new-series Doctor at some point, broken down into categories, but I honestly wouldn't pick Heaven Sent for Capaldi. That's not because of quality, though, but because I'd be assuming that if they're interested they'd want to see more like it, and Heaven Sent stands so unlike the rest of Who that there's not much to say if they liked it; what do you recommend from that point?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 16:06
|
|
|
The best "intro to the show" episode is probably still Matt Smith's premiere. I'd be sort of lost as to "watch one episode in isolation," although I think that's true for most of television for me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 16:26
|
|
|
Blink is good in isolation. Id happily screen it to a class or something. It's basically a Twilight Zone episode. Someone posted something to this effect two pages back.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
I feel like you could have easily, and happily in my case, cut Pyramid and Lie of the Land, and just had Extremis end the exact same way, with the Doctor left to wonder how he defeats these mysterious aliens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
Mind Loving Owl posted:I feel like you could have easily, and happily in my case, cut Pyramid and Lie of the Land, and just had Extremis end the exact same way, with the Doctor left to wonder how he defeats these mysterious aliens. The next episode opens with the smoking wreck of a spaceship, the Doctor walking away, saying "Game over!" and then putting his sunglasses on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
The John Simm Master blows up with all his Cybermen, Missy walks over to her piano, that she had put there just for this, and the Doctor pulls out his guitar and together they sing: Doctor: You are dead, dead, dead! You are dead, dead dead! Missy: Your hearts have stopped and your brain is coo~old Doctor: YOU SO, SO DEEEEEAD! etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c4hnA8jXwo for the uninitiated.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
What do you guy's think about Empty Child/The Doctor Dances as an intro? Probably some of the best stuff in the first season, although it is a two parter so you have to get them to buy in at movie length.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 21:02
|
|
|
BioEnchanted posted:The John Simm Master blows up with all his Cybermen, Missy walks over to her piano, that she had put there just for this, and the Doctor pulls out his guitar and together they sing: When I was running Paranoia, I played this every time a player died! It wasn't long before they were all singing along. The Monks are frustrating because everything was there for a cohesive long-form story. They've run countless scenarios, they know humanity better than we know ourselves. There was such potential for paranoid "are my thoughts my own or what they've arranged for me?" and "is it possible for me to act in a way they haven't predicted?" sci-fi storytelling. Probability and perception stuff gets me all tingly, and there were a whole lot of missed opportunities. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 21:17
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:What do you guy's think about Empty Child/The Doctor Dances as an intro? Probably some of the best stuff in the first season, although it is a two parter so you have to get them to buy in at movie length. I'm trying to remember the list of good first episodes I put together, but I know I had three stories picked for each Doctor, and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances was one of them for Nine. There were three categories, and while I've forgotten one I remember the other two were 'standalones against a weird enemy' (which The Empty Child is fantastic for) and 'introduction to one of the famous enemies' (which for Nine was of course Dalek). The way I figure, two episodes isn't a big ask if both of them are strongly paced, and those two are. I definitely remember running into the issue of watching a longer episode elsewhere, though, because while Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords is a fantastic introduction to the Master it is way too long for a starter. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
I'd say Human Nature/The Family of Blood is the best intro to who the Doctor is, what he does, and how he will gently caress you up if you piss him off. There isn't very much specific to 10 in there, to boot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I'm trying to remember the list of good first episodes I put together, but I know I had three stories picked for each Doctor, and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances was one of them for Nine. There were three categories, and while I've forgotten one I remember the other two were 'standalones against a weird enemy' (which The Empty Child is fantastic for) and 'introduction to one of the famous enemies' (which for Nine was of course Dalek). The way I figure, two episodes isn't a big ask if both of them are strongly paced, and those two are. The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances is the best one for the RTD era.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
Just do what you'd do with any other show: Start with The Pilot. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liJN-iBSs3w Well, the Master and Missy seem to be getting along swimmingly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyTecFb0VWc
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
That room full of people with wrapped-up heads is a really neat visual and I wish they weren't so keen to spoil that they're going to turn out to be The Mondasian Cybermen. Ooh do you think the Master is one of them?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 23:44
|
|
|
I just rewatched dalek and it holds up pretty well
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Namtab posted:I just rewatched dalek and it holds up pretty well It's great. Jubilee is greater, but it's pretty great. (Also I'm pretty sure Thomas Pynchon thought so too, since he seems to reference the facility at one point in Bleeding Edge.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 01:54
|
|
|
Can someone explain to me the difference between Mondasian Cybermen and... Cybermen? I understand they're distinctly different in canon but why? Did they cybes just get rebooted at some point?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 01:55
|
|
|
MysticalMachineGun posted:Can someone explain to me the difference between Mondasian Cybermen and... Cybermen? I understand they're distinctly different in canon but why? Did they cybes just get rebooted at some point? Current Cybermen just wandered in from parallel Earth and hung around. The original Cybermen were from the Tenth Planet in the Solar System; Mondas. They kept on replacing bits of themselves with machines until they became what they are now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 03:06
|
|
|
The Cybermen from Mondas are the originals...the Definitive Article if you will. When Mondas got blown the gently caress up tney moved to Telos and evolved. Since their original appearance they have never looked the same, but some eras were similar. None had the body horror look or sing song voice of the Mondasian ones though. Then there's the Cybus ones, who were created on a parallel Earth by a human named Lumic. One thing about that preview though...with the Mondasian doctor talking about what sounds ike the creation of the Cybermen it seems an awful lot like Moffat is decanonizing Spare Parts. Weak sauce, Moffat.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 03:07
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Current Cybermen just wandered in from parallel Earth and hung around. The original Cybermen were from the Tenth Planet in the Solar System; Mondas. They kept on replacing bits of themselves with machines until they became what they are now. Additionally, the term is used to describe the style of Cybermen that only appear in The Tenth Planet, who
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 03:13
|
|
|
I always felt the 70s design with the big square heads still did a decent job with the body horror due to the silver suits with the outer metal tubing. They basically look like corpses being driven around by the machinery attached to their heads. It wasn't until the Cybus reboot ones that they really lost the horror feel (outside of maybe their debut episode. I thought it sold it decently.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 03:18
|
|
|
Thanks! I agree the newer ones look a lot more sleek and streamlined and less horrifying.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 05:23
|
|
|
I think the best looking ones are from Invasion, which were poorly recreated in the 70s and 80s. They're literally just body bags with mechanical tubes forcing their limbs to move. Really, really good. The Cybus Men weren't great, with the bellbottoms and all, but the newest versions are just the worst. Too rounded, and they have Iron Man chest lights because gently caress creativity
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 05:40
|
|
|
It's not just the parallel world thing (the Gaiman Cybermen weren't Cybus ones). Most of the 4th-7th Doctor ones (and all subsequent non-Cybus ones) were from their new homeworld, Telos. I made the same mistake. The only Mondas ones are from the original Cyberman serial, i.e. the first regeneration story.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 05:48
|
|
|
Weren't teh MoonBase Cybermen from Mondas as well? Or was that after they migrated
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 06:01
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:It's not just the parallel world thing (the Gaiman Cybermen weren't Cybus ones). Most of the 4th-7th Doctor ones (and all subsequent non-Cybus ones) were from their new homeworld, Telos. I made the same mistake. The only Mondas ones are from the original Cyberman serial, i.e. the first regeneration story. What about the ones from the Troughton era? The ones with metallic heads, but otherwise similar to the Tenth Planet ones?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 06:01
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure all the original Mondas Cybermen were killed when they made the astonishingly short-sighted mistake of trying to gently caress with Billy Hartnell, everything that has followed has been based on whatever colonies of Cybermen had been established (particularly on Telos), which probably involved forced conversions of the original inhabitants. From memory, I'm pretty sure the Mondasian Cybermen's lifeforce was linked to Mondas itself? Which is why they piloted their planet around, because they couldn't move very far beyond it without basically starting to die off? Anyways what I'm saying is I loving love the Mondasian Cybermen and I'm real excited for this episode.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 07:48
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:What do you guy's think about Empty Child/The Doctor Dances as an intro? Probably some of the best stuff in the first season, although it is a two parter so you have to get them to buy in at movie length. Hmm, I'm not sure that's the best idea. Don't get me wrong, those episodes are excellent, but I feel like the ending hits harder when you've already gotten used to the typical fatality rate of Who.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 10:49
|
|
|
The awkward sister series is coming back to Big Finish! https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/877819779024695296
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 11:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
Originally, the Earth had no Moon, and had a twin planet exactly opposite the Sun on the same orbit, Mondas, which developed essentially identically to Earth right down to the continents being ours but upside down. In Doctor Who canon, the Moon is As the planet got further and further into space, the surface became uninhabitable, so the few remaining Mondasians went underground. As they couldn't afford to lose people, they kept everyone going by replacing damaged parts, first with organic parts from the dead, then with cybernetic prostheses. After a while, it got to the point that anyone who saw the sky for the first time, after a lifetime underground, went mad immediately. In order to bring the planet back to where it came from, they constructed a giant rocket on the surface to push it back the other way, using the only people who could survive: fully augmented workers with even their emotions removed. The Cybermen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 12:26
|
|
