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VolticSurge
Jul 23, 2013

This is no shitpost,boy! No shitpost!



Hey, guys. I'm currently trapped in the Ancient Basin , with seemingly no way to progress. Am I boned? It'd suck if I had to start all over again.

VolticSurge fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 04:58

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Knorth
Aug 18, 2014



Buglord

You should be able to get back up that busted up elevator shaft back into City of Tears. There's nothing you need to get to be able to do that, it's just a bit tricky

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


End game stuff
Could he have gotten out before the previous hollow knight did? The broken vessel got out as well. I'm guessing there could be other exits. Presumably the collector was from the void too, so he must have gotten to kingdom's edge somehow

For voltic surge, whoops nevermind. Yeah Knorth is right. There is something that can help you out here, but unfortunately you have to have a certain ability to get it. So if you went there without it, the only way out is to jump up the mine shaft. If anything else consider it platforming practice.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 05:01

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


More black bars

I interpreted the vision you get in the void as being a collective memory of all the Hollow Knight's siblings. The Hollow Knight that sealed the Radiance was the only one the King allowed to leave the Abyss. The rest were locked away, being deemed failures. Which is why you get that scene where you get a glimpse of the King leaving with the Hollow Knight before your cast back into the darkness.

Obviously you got out though, as did many others. There's the Broken Vessel but also several corpses of Hollow Knights scattered throughout the world. Notably the Nosk's chamber has several strung up in the background. I still can't think of any indication as to how you got out of the Abyss though, which is sealed by the King's Mark. The only thing I can think of are those shadow vents you see across the world. There's clearly darkness seeping up through them, so they must be connected to the abyss. Those could just be a gameplay thing though.


Another thing I don't get is why stupid Zote looks so much like you when he can't possibly be related.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Internet Kraken posted:



Another thing I don't get is why stupid Zote looks so much like you when he can't possibly be related.

I think I remember that mentioned in some of the early dev stuff. He's supposed to be a lame version of the hero, played up for comic relief. So I think the visual stuff is just to show that he's a foil for the protagonist, and isn't for any lore reasons or anything like that.

At least he gets to live a happy life with someone who cares about him tho, good on Zote for never giving up. Makes me wonder what his quest was though. He mentions if he kills a thousand whatever maybe his dad would finally be proud of him. Probably a throw-away line but maybe his father was someone important in hollownest? He seems to have some reason to go there in particular.

FutonForensic
Nov 11, 2012



I think I went to Crystal Peak a little too early and got myself trapped. I don't have the lantern, and it seems like the only way back to the rest of the map is through a dark section that requires said lantern. That feels like a pretty huge oversight.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



I figured Zote was related, just an unusually colorful failed attempt. There's another one impaled in the room where you first fight Hornet holding the dash item. Kind of seems like a ton of them leaked out.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


FutonForensic posted:

I think I went to Crystal Peak a little too early and got myself trapped. I don't have the lantern, and it seems like the only way back to the rest of the map is through a dark section that requires said lantern. That feels like a pretty huge oversight.

There's an elevator you can activate that takes you directly back to the town in the west. There's also a pit that takes you to a place with a stag station very close by in the east. If you got there without the lantern then you should have desolate dive and therefore also the wall jump right? That should get you through most of the zone.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 05:36

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


JuniperCake posted:

I think I remember that mentioned in some of the early dev stuff. He's supposed to be a lame version of the hero, played up for comic relief. So I think the visual stuff is just to show that he's a foil for the protagonist, and isn't for any lore reasons or anything like that.

At least he gets to live a happy life with someone who cares about him tho, good on Zote for never giving up. Makes me wonder what his quest was though. He mentions if he kills a thousand whatever maybe his dad would finally be proud of him. Probably a throw-away line but maybe his father was someone important in hollownest? He seems to have some reason to go there in particular.

Yeah he's obviously meant to be your "rival". Right after I made that post I thought maybe he's just a tiny garbage bug that dressed up as a Hollow Knight because he heard they were important legendary knights and was trying to imitate something he thought was badass.

Oh but his quest? Read his mind when he returns to Dirtmouth and you find out he didn't really have one. His quest was to fulfill a promise. The promise was one he made to himself to become a famous badass. So he went to Hallownest in search of glory cause that's what adventurers do. Zote is an idiot.

FutonForensic posted:

I think I went to Crystal Peak a little too early and got myself trapped. I don't have the lantern, and it seems like the only way back to the rest of the map is through a dark section that requires said lantern. That feels like a pretty huge oversight.

The dark passage is the only quick way back to the rest of the map. There are actually 3 other ways to reach other areas though, they just require exploring more Crystal Peak.

Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 05:37

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





lets hang out posted:

I figured Zote was related, just an unusually colorful failed attempt. There's another one impaled in the room where you first fight Hornet holding the dash item. Kind of seems like a ton of them leaked out.

Zote's Precepts refer to him having parents (who he hates, like everything else) so he's not another failed attempt.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Internet Kraken posted:

Yeah he's obviously meant to be your "rival". Right after I made that post I thought maybe he's just a tiny garbage bug that dressed up as a Hollow Knight because he heard they were important legendary knights and was trying to imitate something he thought was badass.

Oh but his quest? Read his mind when he returns to Dirtmouth and you find out he didn't really have one. His quest was to fulfill a promise. The promise was one he made to himself to become a famous badass. So he went to Hallownest in search of glory cause that's what adventurers do. Zote is an idiot.

Ah okay. That makes sense as far as his "quest" goes.

He can't have mimiced the hollow knight on purpose though. I'm pretty sure the majority of the bugs have no idea who they are. If you dream nail the relic guy when he's at the hollow knight statue you'll see him wonder about why there is no mention of the knight's existence anywhere besides that fountain. So I doubt Zote has ever heard of them.

To be fair, I don't think there is anything terribly distinctive about the main character's outfit in game. A lot of characters wear masks, and nails/cloaks are pretty common items. To most he probably looks like a stereotypical wanderer.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 05:53

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


JuniperCake posted:

Ah okay. That makes sense as far as his "quest" goes.

He can't have mimiced the hollow knight on purpose though. I'm pretty sure the majority of the bugs have no idea who they are. If you dream nail the relic guy when he's at the hollow knight statue you'll see him wonder about why there is no mention of the knight's existence anywhere besides that fountain. So I doubt Zote has ever heard of them.

This is pretty much but I'll post it anyways.

If there have been dozens, maybe even hundreds, of Hollow Knights then many of them probably left Hallownest. Presumably that is what your Knight did prior to the start of the game. There tiny murder machines so any that left probably got a reputation as being very powerful. Now nobody would know what they are called or what the gently caress they really are, but they all have the same general appearance that people could of been aware of, and Zote may have imitated that.

Alternatively Zote is a dumb joke that I'm putting far too much thought into.

JuniperCake posted:

To be fair, I don't think there is anything terribly distinctive about the main character's outfit in game. A lot of characters wear masks, and nails/cloaks are pretty common items. To most he probably looks like a stereotypical wanderer.

I was thinking the same thing but there aren't any characters that look like you other than Zote. All of the corpses and enemies you encounter that do are implied to be Hollow Knights. It'd fit in with Zote's character if his hand-made garbage gear was trying to copy someone far more important.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



and the king



SirSamVimes posted:

Zote's Precepts refer to him having parents (who he hates, like everything else) so he's not another failed attempt.

i was thinking they might vaguely refer to the king and queen. the queen's involvement in things is pretty unclear but she does say that she hid herself away as penance for something related to uh, breeding?

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





Precept Eleven: Mothers Will Always Betray You. This precept explains itself.
Precept Forty-Three: Never Forgive. If someone asks forgiveness of you, for instance a brother of yours, always deny it. That brother, or whoever it is, doesnt deserve such a thing.
Precept Fifty-Two: Beware the Jealousy of Fathers. Fathers believe that because they created us we must serve them and never exceed their capabilities. If you wish to forge your own path, you must vanquish your father. Or simply abandon him.

I mean the father one could be the king, but the rest don't make sense. Especially #43, why would a Hollow Knight ask for forgiveness? They can't even talk.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



well if your mother gave birth to you and then booted you into a pit that's a pretty harsh betrayal. but yeah i dunno about the brother thing

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





Further evidence against the theory: Zote's face moves. Hollow Knights have masks.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


lets hang out posted:



i was thinking they might vaguely refer to the king and queen. the queen's involvement in things is pretty unclear but she does say that she hid herself away as penance for something related to uh, breeding?

Yeah I'm not sure what she meant about that part, but she also mentions the King's dalliance which seems like it could be related. There's some speculation that he created Hornet as a child for Herrah through some ritual. I don't think she's his literal daughter but he was behind her coming into being somehow. And it might have something to do with the hollow knights but she is clearly very different. This was Herrah's price for becoming a dreamer to strengthen the seal on the black egg. Though I imagine we'll learn about this more and the king in time, with Hornet's campaign.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


Is the queen supposed to be the White Lady or the mantis corpse right outside her little abode? I thought that corpse was the queen and the White Lady was some demi-deity mold...thing. If that corpse isn't the queen then I have no clue why its in the game.

Knorth
Aug 18, 2014



Buglord

The corpse outside is one of the five great Knights, the White Lady mentions her to you but apparently thinks she's still alive. No reason the White Lady can't be both the Queen and the ancient mold thing that Unn warns about. It's not like the King is a normal bug either and she lets on that she knew of his history as the Wyrm

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013



I looked at the wiki for the king's dialog and just realized something too based on the Hornet stuff. He says ...Soul of Wyrm. Soul of Root. Heart of Void... That kinda puts her comments on breeding and the "dalliance" the wyrm had to create Hornet in a different light. I think she might have been heavily involved in the creation of the hollow knights (soul of root). Since we know the King is related to the Wyrm/is reincarnated from it or whatever. Maybe her affection for their creations caused her to create too many of them which became a problem? Who knows. It also would be why she'd see the king making Hornet with Herrah as something she "doesn't begrudge the king for" which implies she had at least some reason to be upset by that in the first place.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



The kingsoul's description is "holy charm symbolising a union between higher beings" and the king says the hollow knight is "born of god and void".

hornet refers to the hollow knight in the egg as "our sibling" and the achievement for messing up the fight and trapping her in there with you does too.

hornet's explicitly the child of the king and herrah and yeah I think the hollow knights are children of the king and the white lady. So she's a half-sister, which is why she's not quite fit to enter the egg. She's distinguished as the "gendered child" (of the king) because all of the full hollow knights are the ungendered children of the king.

lets hang out fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 13:15

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


SirSamVimes posted:

Further evidence against the theory: Zote's face moves. Hollow Knights have masks.

All bugs have masks (and it's implied that they're all made and painted by that one loon in the Deepnest). The Hollow Knight just doesn't really have anything under the mask - it's mute because it doesn't even have a mouth. It can listen and it can see because that's all it needs to serve its purpose.

For that same reason there's no way that Hollow Knights would be found anywhere except in Hallownest, because they're mindless constructions of the abyss programmed to access the Black Egg and purge the infection. They don't really have "parents," they're voidstuff inhabiting the innumerable corpses cast into the Abyss and animated with the King's magic.

Oxxidation fucked around with this message at May 22, 2017 around 13:19

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



the one you control certainly isn't mindless

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


lets hang out posted:

the one you control certainly isn't mindless

It is, in the sense that it lacks any will of its own. The King outlines the Knights' blueprint in the Abyss flashback: "No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry out suffering." The Knights are capable of processing information to their advantage but they have no will and no goal beyond terminating the infection. It's a tiny dead-eyed automaton marching inexorably to either death or glory.

It's probably one of the best little wrinkles of the game and a great take on the silent protagonist, because all of these NPC's pouring their hearts out to you had might as well be talking to a wall.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



Well yeah the king says that but then both the white lady and hornet say that your character can choose how things end. Which is true, you can. You can choose whether or not to dream nail the ghosts. You can choose whether or not to save zote or kill the nailsmith. I just don't buy it. The thing I was controlling who frequently ran back to the start just to see how the cute miner bug was doing wasn't mindless.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


It doesn't really matter whether you "buy it" or not, it's a key part of the Knight's characterization (or lack thereof) that it doesn't have a mind or a will, because that's the only reason it's able to resist and contain the infection - Radiance attacks the minds of bugkind through the infection, but the Hollow Knights give it nothing to work with besides brute-forcing them with orange goo and steering them like puppets. The Hollow Knight might amble around and sit on benches and listen to people, but it doesn't display any emotion or sentimentality towards anything beyond hacking up whatever Radiance has touched.

its predecessor was also mindless but the Moth Sage says it was contaminated by the "germ of an idea" as the long years of containment wore on, which is why the infection started to leak, but even then it's mostly just being puppeteered unwillingly by the infection and continues to try and hack it out of itself whenever it regains control.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


Is there any way to keep the cute miner bug from going hollow?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Internet Kraken posted:

Is there any way to keep the cute miner bug from going hollow?

She doesn't have a quest so not really. She flips hostile when you pick up Crystal Heart which I think is mandatory, but maybe there's some way to avoid it?

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





Oxxidation posted:

All bugs have masks (and it's implied that they're all made and painted by that one loon in the Deepnest). The Hollow Knight just doesn't really have anything under the mask - it's mute because it doesn't even have a mouth. It can listen and it can see because that's all it needs to serve its purpose.

For that same reason there's no way that Hollow Knights would be found anywhere except in Hallownest, because they're mindless constructions of the abyss programmed to access the Black Egg and purge the infection. They don't really have "parents," they're voidstuff inhabiting the innumerable corpses cast into the Abyss and animated with the King's magic.


Where does the game say that all bugs have masks?

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


I don't think it does. A bug's natural "face" looks like a mask in this game because they have exoskeletons, but some of them wear real masks over them. If every bug is wearing a mask and we never see their faces, that would mean Quirrel (or whatever the lance guys name is) is wearing two masks at the same time which would be pretty silly.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Internet Kraken posted:

I don't think it does. A bug's natural "face" looks like a mask in this game because they have exoskeletons, but some of them wear real masks over them. If every bug is wearing a mask and we never see their faces, that would mean Quirrel (or whatever the lance guys name is) is wearing two masks at the same time which would be pretty silly.

You can see what a bug's natural face looks like if you crack the Deepnest maskmaker's mask. They're a creepy bunch beneath those white faces!

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


Oxxidation posted:

You can see what a bug's natural face looks like if you crack the Deepnest maskmaker's mask. They're a creepy bunch beneath those white faces!

I had no idea you could do this and looked at google for an image. Instead I got Hornet porn, so I'm not inclined to look anymore. Got a pic?

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Internet Kraken posted:

I had no idea you could do this and looked at google for an image. Instead I got Hornet porn, so I'm not inclined to look anymore. Got a pic?

I could probably get one later tonight, but basically they've got faces the same color as their bodies and their eye sockets are swirly vortexes, kind of like pencil-scratchings.

That could just be the maskmaker, of course. He's a weird one.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





Oxxidation posted:

I could probably get one later tonight, but basically they've got faces the same color as their bodies and their eye sockets are swirly vortexes, kind of like pencil-scratchings.

That could just be the maskmaker, of course. He's a weird one.

I just got the impression that all the Deepnest bugs had masks, but not all the bugs in Hallownest did.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Oxxidation posted:

It is, in the sense that it lacks any will of its own. The King outlines the Knights' blueprint in the Abyss flashback: "No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry out suffering." The Knights are capable of processing information to their advantage but they have no will and no goal beyond terminating the infection. It's a tiny dead-eyed automaton marching inexorably to either death or glory.

It's probably one of the best little wrinkles of the game and a great take on the silent protagonist, because all of these NPC's pouring their hearts out to you had might as well be talking to a wall.


thats the ideal and what they wanted but I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. There was some flaw of idea that the first "pure" vessel had that made them entirely hollow and Hornet is related to the hollow knights but clearly not hollow herself. So some of the vessels probably have a capacity to develop something or another that caused them to stray from the king's vision of what they should be. In what way, we don't know but there's clearly some individuality in them if they can deviate in such a way that voids their use as vessels.

Though I do think there is something for the protagonist not being completely mindless at least not for the entire game. The fact that he can choose whether to fufill the role he was given to seal up the Radiance and take the first vessels' place or to find another way which paves the way for the true ending. Though if he does end up having some kind of will or whatever, he probably gives it up to destroy radiance when he destroys his own mask at the end of the fight.


Yeah I think some of the bugs at least don't have masks. Salumbra, the Grubs, the Moth Seer, maybe sly?

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=...v%3Dtp8pts0roWo

Asclepius
Mar 20, 2011


Argument for our hollow knight being a mindless, emotionless killing machine:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=931244873

Its only 'free will' is exerted upon it by the choices we make, in which it has no agency at all.

Yorkshire Pudding
Nov 24, 2006



I'm having a real good time with this game. I'm very surprised this thread is not more popular.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Yorkshire Pudding posted:

I'm having a real good time with this game. I'm very surprised this thread is not more popular.

Yeah. For some reason it doesn't seem like this game is as popular as it should be. I mean the fact that you get 30-40 quality hours of gameplay for what.. 15 bucks? That's not bad at all.

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thanks alot assbag
Feb 18, 2005

BLUUUUHHHHHH


This is a fantastic game and one of the best Metroidvania-types in a long time, probably since Axiom Verge (Ori and the Blind Forest is garbage for a lot of reasons I'm willing to argue to my deathbed)

I'm amazed at how long this game seems to be. Y'all are talking about areas I haven't seen in the game at all, so I'm constantly wondering how close I am to the end. Definitely played at least 20 hours so far, mostly just wandering. It's a nice feeling!

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