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Oxxidation posted:I beat the Fools' Challenge on my second try and cleared the White Palace in thirty minutes and I'd say the latter is way worse because of how inexplicable it is. The rest of the game's zones feel fairly organic (the Deepnest is kind of a stretch but I guess that anyplace that's meant as a domicile for spiders is going to be a house of horrors to begin with) so the King's Palace being chockablock with buzzsaws is just immersion-breaking. Why are these here? Did the King hire a really overzealous home-security bug and didn't have the heart to tell him when enough was enough? I think the point is that you're not inside the physical King's Palace. You're inside a version of the palace inside the King's (or maybe a Guard's?) dreams. Maybe the King was really possessive of his dreams so he figured out ways to protect them as much as possible. Yeah, the author's primary motivation was probably just "I want a more difficult series of platforming challenges", but it's not necessarily *entirely* disconnected to the rest of the game.
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May 9, 2017 14:24
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I don't see how White Palace is so bad. The platforming controls are pretty tight, nothing requires a ridiculous level of reflexes or frame-perfect timing, the obstacles are consistent in their placement, the checkpoints are pretty well-paced. Am I missing something here? It only took me, like, half an hour to 45 minutes to clear?
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May 9, 2017 18:05
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I think it depends on whether or not you played games like SMB and if you did, how you fared. It wasn't anything worse than what SMB would throw at you(it sure as gently caress isn't Kaizo) so if you got through that fine, the white palace is probably not the worst thing ever. It did, however, feel like a weird switch.
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May 9, 2017 18:10
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don't get me wrong, i found the white palace jarring, and really fuckin' hard, but... the point of the awakened dream nail is to get into the most protected minds. if you're in the king's dream via the kingmould (i.e. the mindless drone shaped from void and animated by the king), he's probably rather protective of what he's holding. so it does sort of make sense that he'd make the palace an almost impenetrable hellscape of spikes and saws that said it really ought to have had more checkpoints, and also it should have ramped up slower. the instant you see your first buzzsaw it suddenly becomes super-hard
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May 9, 2017 18:17
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What bothers me about the white palace is that it's really low on payoff. You have to go through the whole thing and then some to get the true ending, but at this point the game has basically nothing else left of value to reward you with, and it's sure not going to be any more forthcoming about the plot, so it just feels like an arbitrary annoyance whose only purpose is to make the true ending a pain to get. It's either going to be endlessly irritating if you don't have hiveblood or irritating and slow if you do. The inexplicable quality of there being a dream version of the king's house full of saws and spikes plays into this as well. I guess the king adhered to the House Telvanni school of hospitality. If you can't make it upstairs, you probably aren't anyone he wanted to see. But at the same time any butterfingers can brute force his way through if he has hiveblood and some free time. So basically all his traps just make him the king look dumb, they don't really require that you have mastered any important aspect of kingship or anything plot related like you might have expected. You just need to have killed a bunch of poo poo to get in and then either talk to a bee or get really good at jumping. Which is alright for an optional endgame dungeon, but just lacks emotional resonance at what should be a climactic point for the plot. I also think it kind of hurts that the Queen will just give you her half of the kingsoul if you ask. The King is a dick.
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May 9, 2017 18:31
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I think it would be a lot more manageable and enjoyable if it didn't go on and on and on. I thought I would be done with the spikes and buzzsaws when I opened up the elevator to the top of the palace, but nope, there's yet another long, hard section of spikes and buzzsaws. It's like someone had all these crazy ideas for hard platforming sections and desperately wanted to cram every single one into the game, regardless of how long and arduous it made that section.
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May 9, 2017 19:38
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Here's the thing; this game doesn't sell itself as being an extremely difficult platformer. Yes, there are difficult platforming sections. However none of them go on for a long time. They are usually about a screen, at most, of hazards before you reach whatever optional reward you were going for. White Palace isn't like this. White Palace is like one of those sections but they make it go on forever. Its ridiculously long with very few checkpoints. Totally devoid of enemies so you don't even have fun combat sections to break up the repeated impaling. Its a total shift from the rest of the game which meshes the platforming and combat together pretty well. It feels more at home in Super Meat Boy than Hollow Knight. I don't think it works thematically either. Lets just accept that this isn't an accurate representation of the White Palace and rather a mental defense created by the King. Fine, I can buy that. It even explains a bunch of the decorations being covered up because it implies the King is overcome with shame and his memory of the palace is warped by this.The problem is the game tries to make an atmosphere of melancholy with the sparse ornamentation and somber music. It works at first, but it falls apart once you reach these platforming sections. Cause from that point onward its an endless chorus of BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Any atmosphere the level has gets shredded on the buzzsaws like so many little bugs. Knorth posted:I kinda don't get calling it poorly designed, it was incredibly tight and acted as the perfect counter-part to the arena. One being about pushing the combat to it's limit and the other about the platforming. They'd teased you with moments of tricky platforming throughout the whole thing and this was the culmination of that I don't agree with this. I think the arena tests your platforming too when it throws in sections with the spike floors and narrow walls. Its a much more elegant test of your skills than White Palace, as it doesn't throw away half the game to do so. It also helps that the game is straight up calling you a fool for attempting it, as opposed to White Palace being a plot critical area.
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May 9, 2017 23:04
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plot critical is a weird synonym for "optional bonus super-hard area for completionists of an already difficult game"
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May 9, 2017 23:07
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:plot critical is a weird synonym for "optional bonus super-hard area for completionists of an already difficult game" this, also lol at equating some platforms in the arena with the actual platforming challenge tower It's weird that people are so ready to tear the White Palace apart with these pretty nit-picky arguments just because they found the combat trials in the game more natural
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May 9, 2017 23:20
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:plot critical is a weird synonym for "optional bonus super-hard area for completionists of an already difficult game" Explain what's wrong with it. The player is gonna naturally be more inclined to clear the White Palace. Its tied to one of the most important story figured in the game and required for the true ending. You are naturally drawn towards clearing it. I sure was, it was one of the first places I went back too when I got the dream nail. Then when you can't break inside, the mystery about it only grows. You want to get in there and hopefully learn more about what is going on. Granted what you learn is probably something you already pieced together, but its still an important part of the plot. Compare this to the arena that actively insults you for trying to beat it. The most important contribution the arena makes to the plot is concluding the story of Zote. Knorth posted:It's weird that people are so ready to tear the White Palace apart with these pretty nit-picky arguments just because they found the combat trials in the game more natural Its almost like one of these is fun and the other isn't.
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May 9, 2017 23:26
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Internet Kraken posted:Its almost like one of these is fun and the other isn't. You're free to believe that but don't act like you speak for everyone. I had fun with both the arena and WP, and welcomed both of them as deviation from the main gameplay loop of the game which was getting repetitive. Yes, WP represented a slight breakdown in how immersive the game's atmosphere was. To me that was a sacrifice I gladly made in exchange for fresh gameplay, because I had been playing the game for 25 hours and atmosphere can only carry it so far.
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May 9, 2017 23:29
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Internet Kraken posted:autistic screeching did you finish the white palace then if so, it wasn't too hard hurrah!
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May 9, 2017 23:51
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Internet Kraken posted:Its almost like one of these is fun and the other isn't. the fun one is White Palace and the not-fun one is the Coliseum 
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May 9, 2017 23:58
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Augus posted:the fun one is White Palace and the not-fun one is the Coliseum I mean, yeah, personally I had a lot more fun with the palace then trying to get that 2nd trial reward, to say nothing of the actual Fool trial
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May 10, 2017 00:25
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Internet Kraken posted:Suggestions Thanks for this idea. I kind of neglected the spells all through the game (to my detriment). I'm more accustomed to throwing on Mark of Pride/Longnail, Quick Slash, Stalwart Shell, and Nailmaster's Glory and going pure melee. I'll have to try that out.
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May 10, 2017 00:33
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funktopus posted:Thanks for this idea. I kind of neglected the spells all through the game (to my detriment). I'm more accustomed to throwing on Mark of Pride/Longnail, Quick Slash, Stalwart Shell, and Nailmaster's Glory and going pure melee. I'll have to try that out. Pure melee really isn't a bad idea (it's how I did it, after also going all game using only ever the basic spell). To me it felt like my "attack area" (forward and to the sides of the attack) was increased so much by the two nail upgrades that I rarely had to go long after dodging an attack before I got back to DPS'ing the boss. The first stage of the boss does a lot more large-scale area denial, so there will be long periods where you can't hit at all, but the first stage also has the more straightforward patterns. My suggestion would be get good at those patterns so you can beat stage one fairly consistently, then in stage two you just spend as much time as you can with him at the very tip of your nail and dodge from there while DPS'ing.
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May 10, 2017 01:39
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:did you finish the white palace then I think the 'Autistic Screeching' meme has run it's course right into the ground. In the future can we avoid using it? Thank you kindly!
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May 10, 2017 10:00
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nothing
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May 10, 2017 10:21
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The White Palace was extremely fun, and it was fun to sequence break the platforming, and many of the skips were put there intentionally; look some of them up if you don't believe me. Trial of Fools was also extremely fun, and a challenge that encouraged me to get better at the combat the game had to offer and try out charm combinations I wouldn't have. It was cool that there were two challenge areas for combat and platforming in the game and I'm excited to see the new DLC coming out. 
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May 10, 2017 10:44
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Ahhhhh, I finally beat the final boss, and it was an incredible fight. Went with a melee loadout with Quick Slash, Mark of Pride, and Hiveblood. Focused much more on dodging, and I'm certain that Hiveblood won me the fight. By the time I got to the final stage I had 1 health and was a jittering mess. This game was phenomenal, and I can't wait for the DLC to happen.
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May 11, 2017 06:31
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Dancer posted:You're free to believe that but don't act like you speak for everyone. I had fun with both the arena and WP, and welcomed both of them as deviation from the main gameplay loop of the game which was getting repetitive. Yes, WP represented a slight breakdown in how immersive the game's atmosphere was. To me that was a sacrifice I gladly made in exchange for fresh gameplay, because I had been playing the game for 25 hours and atmosphere can only carry it so far. I think they could have just made the saw blades silent and it'd be perfect. Like, once you see one saw you know exactly what they all are and then it's creepy going through this empty palace full of weird ghosts and covered up decorations and silent saw blades. I bought this game on friday and now I'm 40 hours deep and all I have left is a dream boss(soul master's), finishing 2400 focus (I'm at 1800 now iirc), and the trial of the fool. This game was loving amazing all the way down.
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May 16, 2017 19:13
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/11662585/hollow-knight/posts/1887534 Looks like there will be three "free content packs" added to the game before the Hornet DLC. I'm curious what they'll contain.
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May 17, 2017 23:36
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Those watercolours are really pretty
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May 17, 2017 23:39
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What's the max amount of focus you can get anyways? I know you need 1800 total but I ended up getting way more than that by defiling all the memories of ghosts across the land. Don't think it makes any difference though so I was just a jerk for nothing. VVV You can get more than 2400 by eating all the ghosts scattered across the map. My file is at 2536 and I'd be surprised if I didn't miss some ghosts. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 23:40
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I think it's like 2400, apparently you get a neat little scene with the moth for getting all of it
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May 17, 2017 23:41
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i started playing this and it's really good
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May 17, 2017 23:42
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Huh maybe it's 2600 then I dunno Try visiting the moth again now, there might just be more than you /need/ for her story
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May 17, 2017 23:47
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Knorth posted:Huh maybe it's 2600 then I dunno I distinctly remember reading a post on steam forums about someone having 260x soul. It's not a nice round number. They just made sure 2400 was feasible without having to hunt down individual ghosts and left it at that I think.
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May 17, 2017 23:49
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Steam guide says 2608
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May 17, 2017 23:52
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Knorth posted:Huh maybe it's 2600 then I dunno Moth is gone forever after you get 2400. There's no reason to get more after seeing that scene but I felt compelled to eat every ghost because it made my number bigger. After that speech the warrior moth gives I was honestly expecting the game to call me out on it. Its not like eating ghosts even provides a notable amount of focus. I think they all give only 1 each. Dancer posted:I distinctly remember reading a post on steam forums about someone having 260x soul. It's not a nice round number. They just made sure 2400 was feasible without having to hunt down individual ghosts and left it at that I think. Which is smart from a game design standpoint for sure.
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May 17, 2017 23:54
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Internet Kraken posted:Moth is gone forever after you get 2400. There's no reason to get more after seeing that scene but I felt compelled to eat every ghost because it made my number bigger. After that speech the warrior moth gives I was honestly expecting the game to call me out on it. Its not like eating ghosts even provides a notable amount of focus. I think they all give only 1 each. Oh you already got the scene, ok Yeah I was a little disappointed when I heard that she doesn't actually fight you for doing that 
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May 17, 2017 23:57
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There's an ingame plot explanation for the White Palace, including the traps. It fits quite well with everything else.
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May 18, 2017 02:06
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i finished playing this and it was really good. my only complaint is that i don't think the dark souls stuff improved the game at all. didn't even realize benches respawned enemies until i was carrying a flower from one end of the world to the other. otherwise it was stellar and all of the true ending stuff was really cool. oh game ran really smoothly except i guess 4gb of ram is just baaaarely enough because it would pretty frequently hitch hard loading sound effects and transitioning between areas. made some parts trickier than they needed to be, like the last arena because it had a ton of different enemies. lets hang out fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 02:54
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Discendo Vox posted:There's an ingame plot explanation for the White Palace, including the traps. It fits quite well with everything else. i'm thinking the king took the whole palace and hid it in a dream and stuffed it with traps because he was that desperate to keep the infection away from him. the guy who buys relics talks about the place just disappearing at some point.  anyway i think i mostly understand the story but i have one question: how did the character you play as wind up on the surface before the game started?
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May 21, 2017 04:23
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lets hang out posted:i'm thinking the king took the whole palace and hid it in a dream and stuffed it with traps because he was that desperate to keep the infection away from him. the guy who buys relics talks about the place just disappearing at some point. Yeah I'm pretty sure this is mostly correct. However I also think that eventually he became overcome with shame and depression at his failure, which is why the White Palace is left as such a barren place. The King hid his palace inside the dream to escape the plague but became so disgusted with it that he tried to cover it all up. quote:anyway i think i mostly understand the story but i have one question: how did the character you play as wind up on the surface before the game started? This is something I'd like an answer for as well. I have an answer for most big questions I had about the game but your starting position doesn't seem to make much sense.
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May 21, 2017 04:28
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Internet Kraken posted:This is something I'd like an answer for as well. I have an answer for most big questions I had about the game but your starting position doesn't seem to make much sense. actually i was rewatching the scene when the dreamers show up and throw you into a dream world and they made it sound like your character crawled out of the abyss however long ago and just left the kingdom entirely. then i guess enough time passed for the kingdom to fall apart before they returned, drawn by the seal weakening but having forgotten everything like Quirrel. here's a video https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FIIQaks_hHo8%3Ft%3D102
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May 21, 2017 10:12
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lets hang out posted:actually i was rewatching the scene when the dreamers show up and throw you into a dream world and they made it sound like your character crawled out of the abyss however long ago and just left the kingdom entirely. then i guess enough time passed for the kingdom to fall apart before they returned, drawn by the seal weakening but having forgotten everything like Quirrel. Yeah, but how? The Abyss was sealed shut.
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May 21, 2017 10:39
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i mean it takes like 2 minutes to climb out, maybe the king didn't shut the door right away 
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May 21, 2017 10:47
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Didn't the vision of the chosen vessel ascending end with the door slamming shut?
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May 21, 2017 10:55
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oh maybe. there's a lot of rumbling but you don't actually see it close. i dunno
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May 21, 2017 11:05
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