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JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
End game stuff
Could he have gotten out before the previous hollow knight did? The broken vessel got out as well. I'm guessing there could be other exits. Presumably the collector was from the void too, so he must have gotten to kingdom's edge somehow

For voltic surge, whoops nevermind. Yeah Knorth is right. There is something that can help you out here, but unfortunately you have to have a certain ability to get it. So if you went there without it, the only way out is to jump up the mine shaft. If anything else consider it platforming practice.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:01 on May 22, 2017

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JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Internet Kraken posted:



Another thing I don't get is why stupid Zote looks so much like you when he can't possibly be related.

I think I remember that mentioned in some of the early dev stuff. He's supposed to be a lame version of the hero, played up for comic relief. So I think the visual stuff is just to show that he's a foil for the protagonist, and isn't for any lore reasons or anything like that.

At least he gets to live a happy life with someone who cares about him tho, good on Zote for never giving up. Makes me wonder what his quest was though. He mentions if he kills a thousand whatever maybe his dad would finally be proud of him. Probably a throw-away line but maybe his father was someone important in hollownest? He seems to have some reason to go there in particular.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

FutonForensic posted:

I think I went to Crystal Peak a little too early and got myself trapped. I don't have the lantern, and it seems like the only way back to the rest of the map is through a dark section that requires said lantern. That feels like a pretty huge oversight.

There's an elevator you can activate that takes you directly back to the town in the west. There's also a pit that takes you to a place with a stag station very close by in the east. If you got there without the lantern then you should have desolate dive and therefore also the wall jump right? That should get you through most of the zone.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:36 on May 22, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Internet Kraken posted:

Yeah he's obviously meant to be your "rival". Right after I made that post I thought maybe he's just a tiny garbage bug that dressed up as a Hollow Knight because he heard they were important legendary knights and was trying to imitate something he thought was badass.

Oh but his quest? Read his mind when he returns to Dirtmouth and you find out he didn't really have one. His quest was to fulfill a promise. The promise was one he made to himself to become a famous badass. So he went to Hallownest in search of glory cause that's what adventurers do. Zote is an idiot.

Ah okay. That makes sense as far as his "quest" goes.

He can't have mimiced the hollow knight on purpose though. I'm pretty sure the majority of the bugs have no idea who they are. If you dream nail the relic guy when he's at the hollow knight statue you'll see him wonder about why there is no mention of the knight's existence anywhere besides that fountain. So I doubt Zote has ever heard of them.

To be fair, I don't think there is anything terribly distinctive about the main character's outfit in game. A lot of characters wear masks, and nails/cloaks are pretty common items. To most he probably looks like a stereotypical wanderer.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:53 on May 22, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

lets hang out posted:



i was thinking they might vaguely refer to the king and queen. the queen's involvement in things is pretty unclear but she does say that she hid herself away as penance for something related to uh, breeding?

Yeah I'm not sure what she meant about that part, but she also mentions the King's dalliance which seems like it could be related. There's some speculation that he created Hornet as a child for Herrah through some ritual. I don't think she's his literal daughter but he was behind her coming into being somehow. And it might have something to do with the hollow knights but she is clearly very different. This was Herrah's price for becoming a dreamer to strengthen the seal on the black egg. Though I imagine we'll learn about this more and the king in time, with Hornet's campaign.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

I looked at the wiki for the king's dialog and just realized something too based on the Hornet stuff. He says ...Soul of Wyrm. Soul of Root. Heart of Void... That kinda puts her comments on breeding and the "dalliance" the wyrm had to create Hornet in a different light. I think she might have been heavily involved in the creation of the hollow knights (soul of root). Since we know the King is related to the Wyrm/is reincarnated from it or whatever. Maybe her affection for their creations caused her to create too many of them which became a problem? Who knows. It also would be why she'd see the king making Hornet with Herrah as something she "doesn't begrudge the king for" which implies she had at least some reason to be upset by that in the first place.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Oxxidation posted:

It is, in the sense that it lacks any will of its own. The King outlines the Knights' blueprint in the Abyss flashback: "No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry out suffering." The Knights are capable of processing information to their advantage but they have no will and no goal beyond terminating the infection. It's a tiny dead-eyed automaton marching inexorably to either death or glory.

It's probably one of the best little wrinkles of the game and a great take on the silent protagonist, because all of these NPC's pouring their hearts out to you had might as well be talking to a wall.


thats the ideal and what they wanted but I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. There was some flaw of idea that the first "pure" vessel had that made them entirely hollow and Hornet is related to the hollow knights but clearly not hollow herself. So some of the vessels probably have a capacity to develop something or another that caused them to stray from the king's vision of what they should be. In what way, we don't know but there's clearly some individuality in them if they can deviate in such a way that voids their use as vessels.

Though I do think there is something for the protagonist not being completely mindless at least not for the entire game. The fact that he can choose whether to fufill the role he was given to seal up the Radiance and take the first vessels' place or to find another way which paves the way for the true ending. Though if he does end up having some kind of will or whatever, he probably gives it up to destroy radiance when he destroys his own mask at the end of the fight.


Yeah I think some of the bugs at least don't have masks. Salumbra, the Grubs, the Moth Seer, maybe sly?

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Yorkshire Pudding posted:

I'm having a real good time with this game. I'm very surprised this thread is not more popular.

Yeah. For some reason it doesn't seem like this game is as popular as it should be. I mean the fact that you get 30-40 quality hours of gameplay for what.. 15 bucks? That's not bad at all.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

thanks alot assbag posted:

This is a fantastic game and one of the best Metroidvania-types in a long time, probably since Axiom Verge (Ori and the Blind Forest is garbage for a lot of reasons I'm willing to argue to my deathbed)

I'm amazed at how long this game seems to be. Y'all are talking about areas I haven't seen in the game at all, so I'm constantly wondering how close I am to the end. Definitely played at least 20 hours so far, mostly just wandering. It's a nice feeling!

Yeah, thats one of the impressive bits. Even in "late game" you'll still be running into entirely new areas with new lore/assets and everything.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
If it helps, know that you can't lock yourself out of any content or mess things that you won't be able to do x. So explore freely!

There is one small exception that really only matters to people wanting every achievement.

There is one ending that you can be locked out of if you are extremely far into the game, but you can still get a variant of that ending that is pretty much the same. The difference is there are multiple achievements, one for each ending and you cant get the first one anymore after a certain point.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
If a boss is too difficult you can usually leave and come back later after some more charms/upgrades. You'd be surprised at how few of the bosses are actually required to progress, though there are a few that are.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

I am very curious about how to save a certain NPC that dies during a boss fight.

If you are talking the traitor lord fight then the only way to save that npc is to not talk to them in the other zones so she never gets the courage to help you in the first place. Maybe you could do it after the fight?

If she's in the fight she will die. But I think that's the end of interactions with her either way but if it makes you feel better.


There are NPC storylines but you can't really change the way how they play out for the most part. Beyond little things like, you can choose to bring the delicate flower to elderbug for instance. (It doesn't stop you from completing the quest either, you just have to get a new flower.)

Well most of them anyways. Come to think of it there are two exceptions but they are for pretty minor characters.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:25 on May 25, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Knorth posted:

Not really, the only ones I can think of are if you leave Zote in that bug's mouth he obviously doesn't show up later ('cause you left him to die... you monster...) and if you don't meet Hornet in Kingdoms Edge before doing one of the Dreamers you miss out on a small character scene but her overall quest is still the same.

Yeah, there's that one and one more.

The final fate of the nailsmith has two outcomes


Whoops got confused, Sack bug is found in: hiding in the ground in the fungal wastes, deepnest and ancient basin.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:31 on May 25, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Oxxidation posted:

As far as I know this isn't actually possible, and you wouldn't want to do it anyway. Cloth's got a death wish. Going out against Evil Orange Mantis Queen is the best end she could ever ask for.

Yeah, I'd like to see a video or a screenshot because I don't think it's possible either. That person's post was the first I've seen mentioned of it and I spent some time looking cause I wanted to find an alternative solution too.

You can save cloth from the lord, but to do it she cant be in the fight at all. So if you do the fight before building her courage up by talking to her in Basin/Deepnest then she won't be present for obvious reasons. Then after the Basin scene, she'll instead appear in village and talk to you once more before disappearing from the game entirely. She plans to march into the desolate plains beyond the howling cliffs, so it's likely she doesn't survive the journey anyways.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Lakitu7 posted:

Yeah, I know. I didn't get there yet, and I'm not looking forward to it. I'm just hoping it's not bad enough to ruin the whole game because the previous 20 hours were exceptionally good.

Eh It's really not as bad as people say. I'm not the best platformer and I got through it without it taking too much time. Here's some tips though if you need.

HiveBlood + Grubsong mean you get infinite tries if you need them. So you only ever have to figure out a specific sequence once. There are benches so this isn't necessary but it certainly helps.

Also remember you can bounce off stuff with your downswing, there are certain parts where downswings make things MUCH easier.

There are skippable parts, either by downswing bouncing over stuff or going through breakable walls. So feel free to try stuff out.

Also last note, there are like 2-3 secret rooms with interesting things in them. You don't need any of them (there are no items beyond the one you are there to get) but they can be fun so don't be in a rush if you don't want it. You could also look up the rooms in youtube too.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
Yeah, I think you can argue some parts but Radiance is absolutely a malicious entity. She enslaves everyone she touches and drives them to a violent unthinking state. Insert joke about bugs being fixated on lights here. But the pale king, who is probably also a jerk, is the one who gave the bug's their free will and ability to choose. So it seems the bugs happily accepted his rule over the Radiance. Hence why she retaliates with the infection. The infection not only robs them of their minds, it also eventually kills them. You can see that in the moss prophet room, and some other places. So by that point she is trying to genocide the entire bug race. You should feel good about taking her down.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

The statement is ambiguous when the source is unreliable. What do moths do with light?


What reason is there to believe the seer is lying to you here? He hardly has anything to gain from that. Also note that line is from a bit of bonus dialog you get from getting 2400 essence, it's not a throw-a-way line but backstory that you get as a reward for maxing out on essence.

Also it should be pointed out The radiance itself is very moth like, and given how self-centered and vain it is, it makes sense that the species it created would look very similiar to it which corroborates the seer's story.

Also about the hornet thing mentioned a while earlier

Hornet was not a countermeasure against the radiance. She was a bargaining chip. Herrah would only become a dreamer if the pale king gave her a child. Hornet was the child in that bargain. She's likely a construct, but there's a lot we don't know about her. I imagine we'll get a lot more of her story soon when they release her campaign.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jun 1, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

The seer still buys into what the Radiance is selling. he/she still sees its influence as "worship".


Surely an entity that can seep into everyone's dreams and create something as powerful as the infection is powerful enough to create moths. If she's powerful enough to do so, and the moth in charge of keeping the memories/histories of their tribe says that she did, and they also look like they might have come from her because they also look a lot like her, then I think it's safe to conclude that she did make the moths. I don't know how it would serve the narrative for all of that to be a misdirection.

Like whether the radiance or the pale king are truly gods, or just very powerful entities that wanted to be worshiped like gods doesn't really matter does it? They are still very powerful entities that have massively shaped life in hallownest at a very fundamental level.



On the note of dream nail messages, there was one that I think was in one of the betas or something and eventually was removed but it was kinda interesting.
The hollow knight (the one you fight) had a dream nail text that went along the lines of: " Father..." . So maybe it was supposed to be a hint of the idea that ruined the first vessel? Your guess is as good as mine.
It was taken out so not canon but might be worth mentioning if you can get some fun theories out of it.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

skasion posted:

I thought it was reasonably clear that what Herrah sacrificed was her waking life, and thus any hope of helping the spider people out of their craziness. She agreed to go into the dream and become a seal because the Pale King offered to give her a child, which she could no longer have the normal way because her entire people had been infected by the plague.

Yeah, the deal was Herrah would become a dreamer in exchange for a child. Being a dreamer basically meant the spiders of deepnest were without a leader which is a pretty big sacrifice for a community in a time of crisis. Though I'm not sure all the spiders ended up becoming mindless.

You have those "friends" who kindly invite you to take a seat. Since those who are infected don't seem to be the types to take the time to talk to you nor have the wits to try to trap you, I wonder what their deal was. Maybe they were just hungry? Man though, Deepnest is really cool but I wish more stuff was fleshed out there. That huge city with only like two buildings to explore was kinda a let down.

Also I'm not sure what we should be spoilering and what shouldn't be at this point.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Ambivalent posted:

I'd have to play those scenes again but I'm pretty sure those are all like, puppeted husks and not actually living bugs.

I think you're right but a puppet has to be puppeted by something. I figure they just had small spiders inside just like the corpse walkers in middle deepnest. Seems like something a spider would do since they're a pretty creepy bunch even when not infected. Just look at the midwife. They also web you up in their creepy little spider house too. Though I suppose the moss prophet was able to preach while infected, so maybe these infected spiders are just able to talk. Even though that kind seems unusual given the behavior of the other infected bugs.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Yorkshire Pudding posted:

I feel like the madness is a side-effect of resisting the influence, not something that is innate to worshiping/acknowledging the Radiance. There isn't really any evidence that supports the idea that the Radiance is a megalomaniac who demands every being worships her exclusively, she just seems to not want to be locked away and forgotten. We don't really have any evidence of what life was like before the Pale King, but we do know there were civilizations before him, so maybe things weren't that bad and he has just played it up to justify his usurpation of the throne. The Infection seems more like a side of effect of trying to deny that The Radiance exists, and not specifically a malicious act by the Radiance.

It's really hard to argue that the infection is not malicious when you see what it did to her prophet and his followers. They certainly were not resisting the infection at all. End stage of infection is death and she does not even spare the bugs that seem likely to become loyal to her.

The infection did not start because she was sealed, the infection started after people turned away from her based on the Seer's dialog. Also it makes no sense that people would seal away a forgotten god or whatever she is, because she was forgotten at the time.

The sealing was an attempt to stop the infection, not the cause. Like the Wyrm could very well be a jerk, but I think it's really hard to defend an interpretation that the radiance was just misunderstood and did not mean to try to destroy all of hallownest. That's clearly her intent. Someone who would destroy an entire civilization and every living being that belongs to it because they were not being paid the remembrance they think they deserve is in fact a megalomaniac.

It's possible too that this wasn't the first civilization she destroyed either. We still don't know what happened to that void worshiping civilization that you find remnants of in the Abyss. The void is her ancient enemy so it's possible she killed them too.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

FisheyStix posted:

But at least he made us pretty. :kiddo:

Seriously, he has good taste in decor. The city of tears is a beautiful place.

He needs to watch that saw-blade fixation though. They really ruin the ambiance you know?

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Yorkshire Pudding posted:

This game is so marred by having White Palace included in it.

Eh, It's optional and I think it's a nice challenge for most people.

I think the worst part is having to do a few parts over if you mess up too much. Maybe they could have been more generous with the benches. But barring that, if you have hiveblood then it becomes: Okay how do I get through this challenge? Then this challenge? and you never really have to worry about back tracking to do parts you already did if you die. It makes you think and adjust how you move in ways no other area does and is a fine end game test. That plus the dream bosses are pretty good prep for the final boss. If you struggle with both of those, chances are you are not going to have fun with the true final boss at all anyways. I'm pretty certain it takes longer for most people to beat the final boss than it does to get through the white palace. The final boss is certainly far more punishing on mistakes.

I think if it were me, the one thing I'd do is mute the saw blades. The music there is awesome and the sound of them just gets in the way of it.


And it's not like you get no prep for it. If you've been doing the optional content there's plenty of dicey platforming parts that are good practice. Getting to that one nail master where you have to do the downslash hopping, that one fricken grub in Queen's Garden You know the one. Etc.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

PaybackJack posted:

I hated White Palace until I equipped Hiveblood. I suck at those type of platforming sections but having Hiveblood is unlimited retries so I was able to get through it. Still couldn't beat The Radiance but getting through White Palace was pretty rewarding even if Hiveblood eliminated the difficulty of having to do it all in a single life bar.

I don't know if you are still trying but if it helps

I think the secret to The Radiance is just learning when it's safe to hit her or when you have to spend 100% of the time avoiding attacks. For me the worst two attacks were the homing orbs, and the horizontal swords. The others were usually easy to get a lot of damage off on the boss while also dodging.

Also what helped me, is I learned the fight with Grubberfly Elegy, Quick Slash, and the +2 Lifeblood charm (+3 is good if you have it but don't use Joni's) as grubberfly will last for two hits instead of one with that. Once I learned the fight well enough that my performance was more or less consistent, I swapped Lifeblood for Fragile Strength to make the phases shorter. The trip back to the merchant isn't that long and you can always just return to title screen right before dying if you don't want to worry about the charm breaking. I'm not great at platforming but this worked well enough for me.

Some people had some success just using Lifeblood charms + that spell damage charm and spamming Abyss Shriek. So that's worth trying too if you don't like the above.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

given the angle of the sword he's holding and the shoulders, I think we're in for Giant Grimdark Beefcake Zote, who might be in Bretta's dream instead of his own.

Yeah I agree.

Whether it's Zote or Bretta, it's probably going to be a version of him that is actually as strong as he thinks he is. This fight will probably be pretty harrowing.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
Yeah, Thanks! Hollow Knight is an excellent game and it has a lot of heart. Definitely the best metroidvania i've played in a very long time. Looking forward to the new content!

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

George Lazenby posted:


like the fluke monsters in the waterways

I'm kinda curious, how did you go about making the Fluke monster sounds? Because they are absolutely amazing.

My favorites are the flying ones after the big guys get split into two. They just sound so amazingly angry.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jun 8, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013
Like even if you don't end up depending on it all that much, i do think it makes a huge difference. Cause you never have that worry in the back of your mind, gently caress if I mess this up too many times I have to go back and do the previous 4-5 puzzles again! With the hiveblood it lets you kinda treat it as a super meatboy level. Okay just figure out this gimmick/challenge then its done and you don't have to look at it again and on to the next one.

Mentally it's pretty different imo.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Applewhite posted:

I'm sorry I opened this can of grubs.

This has been the busiest this thread has been in a while. It's cool.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Internet Kraken posted:

None of the other platforming sections are anywhere near as long and very few approach it in difficulty. The only ones where I had anywhere near the amount of trouble I went through as White Palace was reaching Nailmaster Oro without the tear, though I was really bad at nail bouncing then. The other was that one grub in Queen's Garden (you know the one).

Haha yeah. That grub... that grub. By the way, putting that one disappearing platform at the end of that segment is a masterstroke of evil. Oro was pretty difficult too, though I think that's more to do with the fact that segment is probably the first one most people encounter that requires them to be half decent at the bouncing. So basically the difficulty is just in learning an entirely new mechanic. It was good practice for that one room in Deepnest with the slow Garpedes though.

That's the nice thing about the game though. Once you learn something, it feels pretty easy to repeat it and there is definitely a clear sense of progression in learning how to move and navigate through challenges. Not just getting new skills but the game is always actively putting you in new situations where you have to learn to use your existing skills just a bit better. I think that might be why White Palace is jarring. Everything up to that point is really organic and streamlined but the white palace, in terms of the sudden ramp in difficulty, and that the platform is very different than the base game might throw people off. I still liked it though.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Internet Kraken posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgy1TV12LDc

Tall lanky knight, throws around infectious goop, screams incoherently, carries a large blade with one arm, and fights like a crazy beast. In a game that felt like it invoked the feeling of Dark Souls at places, this was the only part where I felt like it was getting a bit to close to something from it and losing its own identity a bit. This is probably just bias on my part though because I hate Artorias.

Also Watcher Knights probably are a harder fight just because they have so much HP. Also they don't give you any free windows to rack up a ton of damage like HK does when he starts stabbing himself.

Corrupted knight who loses control is hardly a novel idea. More importantly the fight makes perfect sense given the context of it. Like I don't know how else you could have that fight consider who the HK is and all the stuff that's happened to it.

Also if it helps:
Remember the HK is mute, that incoherent scream you hear is the Radiance's. I mean you could remove it but I think it loses some impact without it. Also I'd argue that the idea of a corrupted knight overwhelmed with infection is lashing at you is better done in HK. It trying futile to dig it out (or destroy itself), the moments when the Radiance regains control and uses the HK's body as a living cudgel to try to smash you, etc. There's absolutely nothing like that in the fight you linked.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jun 14, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

dancingbears posted:

Isn't there? You can't get the first ending after you break the Kingsoul and get the Void Heart, so you should set aside some time to kill the final boss when you're nearing the end of the game.

Eh.

ending spoilers.
It only matters if you are a completion-ist and want every achievement. And in that case you have to go through the game twice anyways cause of the Zote/Nailsmith ones, let alone steelsoul and the speed run ones.

Content wise, the first and the "second" endings are almost identical. The only difference is Hornet is with you in the 2nd ending but the same events/cutscenes play otherwise. So I think it's better to tell people not to worry so they don't have that fear of locking themselves out of something good in the back of their minds. It's better to have fun exploring and do what you want in this game.


in short though.
Don't worry about locking yourself out of anything.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jun 24, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

enraged_camel posted:

After dying what must have been fifty times at the Soul Master and being forced to retread the same path to my shade, I am officially giving up.

The whole "if you die you resurrect miles away and if you die again before grabbing your shade you lose all your money, oh and by the way your shade is hostile" mechanic is rage-inducing. It doesn't help that enemies respawn every time you visit an area, so you end up having to fight/dodge the same things over and over and over every time you die, just to have a chance at recovering your hard-earned money.

It's a shame because the game is pretty unique and fun otherwise. I guess in my old age I no longer have the patience for bullshit game mechanics that kick the player when they are down.

Soul Master is a major spike in difficulty from what comes before. If it helps, he is an optional boss and you can come back after you've gained more upgrades. That's actually what I did the first time cause I was doing pretty terrible as well.

Just getting another nail upgrade alone makes him much easier.

Also don't worry too much about the money. The game throws tons of geo at you and there are actually only a few ways to spend it. So it's not actually that bad to lose all your money.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 25, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

SirSamVimes posted:

You have four options that I can see.

1) Beat the Soul Master, get a new powerup.
2) Go to the bottom of the Mantis Village for another boss fight that gives one of the best charms in the game and unlocks access to another zone.
3) Use a Simple Key (there are two available by now, one sold by Sly and the other sitting around in the City of Tears) at room to the left of the big fountain to unlock access to the Royal Waterways
4) Sell whatever relics you have to Lemm and buy a Lumafly Lantern, giving you access to Crystal Peak.

By the way, 2 is harder to do than 1. But 3 and 4 are perfectly solid options on where to go next if you aren't comfortable with boss fights.

And yeah it's not that Soul King is impossible. He's a decent fight but his difficulty depends on how good you are with the mechanics of the game, you can't really cheese him the way you can with previous fights and it's really easy to panic during that fight. It's the length of the fight that's a problem more than anything else. Add in the lengthy run back and it can be an easy source of early game frustration.

But if you leave him alone a while and come back, even without upgrades you'll probably have practiced enough to be able to maneuver around him pretty well.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Dancer posted:

That's why you stack them :getin:.

There's diminishing returns so stacking them isn't that great unfortunately. I still like Mark of pride better though. In builds where I'd use it, I usually don't need that extra notch slot to get everything I want. Mark of Pride is also nice for nail bouncing segments, gives you a bit more reach.

Too bad you cant use mark to extend Grubberfly charm beams, that would be really nice.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Lurkman posted:



I think you can also access Crystal Peak by using the toll machine that can only be accessed if you have the lantern, to open a gate.

Yeah, The method spoilered above works just fine for getting to the peak.

I skipped him the first time and then went back to him very late in the game. You can get to every zone in the game pretty much. There are a few secrets and like a bench you can't get but pretty much everything else has an alternate route. So you can at least get the first ending without ever stepping into soul sanctum.

Actually you can skip almost every encounter in the game if you know how. There's only like 3 mandatory fights.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jun 26, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

bewilderment posted:

When I got the first ending I did it while skipping the entirety of Kingdom's Edge. This is pretty goofy because it means no Shade Soul, which means you can't dash past giant spiders. Going the awkward way through Fog Canyon does mean that when I got Ghastly Shriek I could upgrade it as soon as I got to the Abyss though, instead of potentially having to backtrack more than once!

I'm pretty sure 99% of people ended up going through Deepnest before the Abyss. I don't think the devs expected shade cloak to be the answer most people would turn to in order to deal with those spiders. There's quite a few ways to handle them that don't require any advanced upgrades. They are pretty dangerous cause of the double damage but once you get their pattern down they are pretty straight forward.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jun 26, 2017

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

n4 posted:

I don't understand why people are complaining about a completely optional part of the game that is meant to be challenging. 1) that part of the game is great, 2) it's just challenging enough without being crazy, and 3) you can use powers to cheese it, like using the regenerating health charm.

If anything you should be complaining about the final coliseum challenge, which is far more difficult and harder to cheese.

I think the difference is that the final coliseum only awards an achievement and is not required for the true ending. So in that sense they aren't comparable.

I think the white palace is pretty cool overall though. Also, I suspect the true final boss takes people more time on average than getting through the palace does.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

myDad posted:

Ah cool I totally missed that. Found a bunch of new dead-ends, but I guess I can challenge the 3 big bosses now & hopefully get some upgrades to progress

e: surprised the Beast, Teacher, and Whatever aren't boss battles

It's possible they just ran out of time. I believe there were a few boss battles that were definitely cut (the knight that kept guard over the white lady I think was one such fight)

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JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Internet Kraken posted:

Quitting to the menu feels like an exploit but gently caress climbing out of the Abyss the intended way.

Yeah with the amount of time it saves you, I don't think there is a real reason to not do the quit thing to return to the last bench. I think once they add more quick travel options it shouldn't be as necessary but for now it seriously lessens the amount of back tracking you'll have to do.

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