Hollow Knight - Little bugs on a grand adventure

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Hollow Knight - Little bugs on a grand adventure

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Watcher knights is one of the harder fights in the game for sure. Blast down the first knight with soul before the second one spawns, then race down the second one and you can have him dead or close to dead as the third comes out. From then on play more defensively since you'll be dealing with 2 knights at once.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2017 18:15

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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 05:12

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Internet Kraken posted:

The King did not create the first civilization or give literal mind and soul to all the bugs of Hallownest. Its pretty clear that not only are there civilizations outside of Hallownest, but also that other civilizations existed where Hallownest now stands. There are foreign travelers, mention of other lands and kingdoms beyond the borders, and clear indication of precursors to the Pale King's civilization.

The tablets are probably just an embellishment of the Pale King building a new civilization on the ruins of Radiance's. That or they could hint at a relationship between the King and his retainers that went beyond ruler and subject. The King might of had a way to share his power with the retainers and grant them higher intellect. Such intellect would be lost if they strayed away from the King, and thus they would no longer be "higher beings". This could be why Retainers are present in the White Palace dream; they go beyond being memories and are literally part of the King's mind due to this connection.

But again I consider it equally likely the Pale King's ego was so large that he thought anyone outside of Hallownest a savage and everything that predated it to be worthless. It was only through his grace that they were elevated to a state he considered intelligent. The White Bug's Burden.

He didn't create the first civilization, but he did create Hallownest. Before his arrival the bugs were... bugs, not sentient creatures. At least most of them, although it's hinted that some of the races were sentient outside of his power (e.g., The queen in the Hive). The pale king is a reincarnation of the white wyrm found in Kingdom's Edge and it's inferred that these wyrms are highly intelligent, god-like creatures and that this exact cycle has happened before

"...Wyrm's pull bugs into their thrall,
Till ages pass and kingdoms fall
Caps and shells may fall to dust,
But Mr Mushroom readjusts..."

Also a tablet in Howling Cliffs indeed states that any bugs who stray too far from Hallownest lose their sentience
"Higher beings, these words are for you alone. These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond. Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants"

Your Computer posted:

"Selfish God King clings to dying empire, messes with the natural order of things, pain and suffering ensues" where have I heard that story before

If I understand it correctly the Pale King essentially granted individual minds and thus personalities, culture and civilization to the bugs? Was it a secret plot to ~~contain the dark soul~~ achieve world domination or does it kinda seem... not that bad? I mean unless you regard civilization as a mistake (which you might). Some of the lore tablets make him sound a bit sinister (from creatures who do not "share his vision") but as far as I can see he ~~did nothing wrong~~ doesn't seem malicious at all.

well, as far as monarchs go anyway

The Pale King is an interesting character and seems mostly benign, although he is a god-monarch despot who displaces the previous god and will go to any length to keep his vision intact. It's not a clear cut case of right or wrong

Capri Sun Tzu fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jan 31, 2018

# ¿ Jan 31, 2018 16:27

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

No Wave posted:

What would you see persisting for an NG+? Everything (including monarch wings and shadow dash etc.) so you could have fun breaking the game, or just make it a hard mode?

You keep everything but die in one hit

# ¿ Jan 31, 2018 17:13

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Internet Kraken posted:

Addressing that was the entire point of my post. I'm not sure how you missed that but let me make it clear; the idea that bugs weren't sentient before the Pale King came is obviously not true. Because in Hallownest alone you have evidence of the Moth and Void civilizations, both of which predate the arrival of Pale King. Again, the tablets talking about the King granting literal minds to his subjects are either embellishment or referring to a special bond between the King and his retainers.

My read is that they "weren't sentient" because they were held in mindless thrall by the Radiance, which the Pale King liberated them from, not that the Pale King is the sole source of consciousness in the world.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2018 20:35

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Internet Kraken posted:

I think its vague enough that either interpretation could be correct. Its possible that every bug in Hallownest was enthralled by the Radiance before the Pale King banished her. Personally I think that isn't the case, and that the Radiance died from something else. The moth's were worshiping her memory in the dream, but when the Pale King's kingdom rose they abandoned her memory in favor of the King. Her memory, which longed to be remembered forever, lashed out at the Pale King's subjects because of this.

I like that interpretation more because I feel it fits the themes of the game better. If the Pale King overthrew the Radiance while she was still ruling then she has reason to be pissed. But if the Pale King merely inherited the ashes of her kingdom and built a new one over it, she's a figment of the past that refuses to be forgotten. And I think that touches on more of the themes about life, memory, and how something can endure in the mind's of others long after it has faded away.

I like your interpretation more. It's also possible that the Radiance has always only existed in dreams. Whatever the case, under her rule/worship the bugs of Hollownest were mindless, bestial creatures:

What cost to tame our savagery? You gave your all and then gave more.
Yet still desires lay unquenched, more dreams remained, your energies spent.
Amongst it sprang a dreadful scourge,
That forced return our aggressive urge,
And turned us back to beasts or husks,
Our souls consumed by light above.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2018 23:00

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

So It Goes posted:

One of the radiance�s dream nail lines refers to you as ancient enemy. This suggests to me there was a direct conflict between the radiance and pale king.

Or that Light and Void have always been enemies

# ¿ Feb 1, 2018 17:48

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Broken Cog posted:

Did they buff Flukemarm at some point, because when I played through the game when it first came out, I thought that boss was a bit of a joke. I've seen people complain about it recently though.

On the other hand, the second encounter with the crystal bug in the mines was insane.

Crystal Guardian Mark 2 is definitely one of the hardest bosses in the game.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2018 20:57

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

brain dammej posted:

Shadecloak trivializes CG Mk. 2.
Stay close to him, hacking away, and when he starts to fire his beam, dash through him and keep at it. It'll be recharged by the time he fires again. No need to jump ever.

Yeah, boss difficulty in this game is super subjective depending on when you fight them. I would love to see a ng+ mode where you can just select and fight each boss at the "intended" difficulty. My favorite fight is probably Mantis Lords, but somehow I skipped Mantis Village until I had the nail fully upgraded so it was a pretty easy fight for me.

skasion posted:

Crystal Guardian 2 is one of those bosses that is really susceptible to bum rush tactics. Stack up lifeblood health and quick slash and forget about trying to heal, just run him down.

I think Joni's Blessing should be removed, lifeblood stacking trivializes a lot of bosses. I beat all the dream bosses with some combination of Jonis/Heart/Core.

My hardest bosses:

1. Radiance
2. Watcher Knights
3. Crystal Guardian 2
4. Soul Master

# ¿ Feb 5, 2018 16:31

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Dancer posted:

For what it's worth, that's how I feel about how strong nail damage upgrades can be. And I think a lot more people feel that way about Quick Slash (though not for all bosses, since a lot of them will move/blink away). If you're actively trying to make the game easy, it lets you.

Agreed, I would rather nail upgrades just flat didn't apply to bosses. Extra masks already hugely affect the difficulty curve. Keep the nail upgrades in as a quality of life improvement for fighting non-boss enemies as you backtrack through older areas.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2018 20:27

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Your Computer posted:

Or keep it in because being able to facetank is the only way a lot of people are going to be able to get through the game

Instead of removing stuff from the game it would be cooler if they added a hard mode or something.

I think games are better when there is one difficulty level that is intentionally designed around, I'm not a fan of the choose your own difficulty model. Plus they essentially did that already with the dream bosses/white palace stuff. You just get a different ending if you go to the trouble of getting the void heart etc.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2018 21:43

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Your Computer posted:

Sure, I agree. And it is!

Hollow Knight is an amazing game and everyone deserves to be able to play it. Joni's Blessing and Nail Upgrades/Quick Slash/Fragile Strength do make the game easier and that's completely intentional. If you think they make the game too easy, congratulations, just don't use them. Like I said, for a lot of people those things are the only thing allowing them to get through the game and see the ending and I think that's exactly why they should be left in. I just think the "this thing is overpowered and makes the game too easy, they should remove it" type of thinking is very selfish, especially if you can choose not to utilize those things.

I disagree with your perspective although its cool and good for people to have different opinions especially about trivial things like video games. I think games shouldn't include a way to make them easier, but rather should challenge the player to try harder making final victory much more rewarding.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2018 22:35

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Dancer posted:

I just happen disagree on a rather fundamental level (which is okay).

Yeah it's just this. From one perspective, the player picks how difficult the game is and from the other the developer does. I just favor the latter.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2018 23:48

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Philosophies about video game difficulty aside, lifeblood stacking is grossly overpowered compared to the other charm combinations. It seems like a developer oversight, not an intended way to cheese the game.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2018 00:06

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Mymla posted:

So? If you don't want to cheese the game, don't stack lifeblood. Why should other people not be allowed to do so just because you don't want to?

I'm saying it seems like an oversight, a balance issue. I don't care if they put in an easy mode or assist mode or whatever but I don't think it's good design for one charm combination to be so much better than every other one for pretty much all the bosses.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2018 16:19

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Levitate posted:

e: without spoilers is there anything I really really should do in a first run?

Nope, nothing! You can't mess anything up just have fun

e. there is actually one thing I wish I knew because it precludes some optional boss content later on: Dont let Zote die

Capri Sun Tzu fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Feb 6, 2018

# ¿ Feb 6, 2018 17:16

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Hollow knight has a lot of real challenging parts that's for sure. I probably fought soul master like 50 times and don't get me started on Radiance. In my opinion games are more compelling when they are tough and you have no way to skip the tough parts. How other people play games is up to them but I think if you want to stick in an assist mode it should be explicit and not by using some overpowered in-game system that isn't clearly labeled as such. Again, in my opinion.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2018 17:37

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

"Organically craft difficulty for themselves" is a way of saying "use strategy." The charm system is great in that it allows you to add some strategic decision making to get through tough bosses or areas. It's a little flawed that one charm combination so far outweighs all the others for all the late-game bosses, is what I'm saying. It's an interesting idea in theory: you trade the ability to heal for more base health but when stacked with other lifeblood charms it gives you so much health that you can stand in place and mash the attack key and race the bosses down. I think having it be so far ahead devalues the strategy part of the game.

Sure, I have opinions about difficulty in video games, but this is just a balance discussion.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2018 16:20

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Internet Kraken posted:

This is the reason why I dislike it. I hate precision platforming so I had zero fun with it. I would've liked it a lot more if it had some amount of combat mixed in. It suddenly felt like I was playing a different game from the one I'd been loving up until that point.

Yet despite this I still beat the Path of Pain and did it with Jodi's Blessing equipped because I'm an idiot.

I liked it but I understand why people say it's out of place with the rest of the game because it is.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2018 23:52

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Bleck posted:

That's kind of my point, though - while it may or may not have been enjoyable for some people, the fact that is uses a skill that is otherwise not important at all in the rest of the game is a probably-not-good choice as far as game design goes.

Counterpoint, this part of the game is optional

# ¿ Feb 20, 2018 04:59

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

C-Euro posted:

I tried talking to it with the fungal spore charm equipped and it seemed to react to that, except not the first time I spoke to it? I know that each time you speak to it it moves to another location in the world, is there any merit to seeing that sequence all the way through?

You get more of his cryptic dialogue which gives some pretty important lore hints and a short extra cutscene at the end, that's all though.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2018 16:11

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

SirSamVimes posted:

A Good Boss.

Awesome, The Hive is one of the coolest zones in the game and it always felt weird that it didn't have a boss. I assume this boss gates access to Hiveblood?

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 20:41

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Hawgh posted:

I hate this Deepnest centipede juggle-jumping bullshit so goddamn much.

Please let it end. I just want to be released from this hell.

You are having the appropriate reaction to Deepnest

# ¿ Apr 2, 2018 15:05

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Dancer posted:

Wtf, this new trailer has been out a week, and I wasn't yet aware of it. You disappoint me, thread.

https://youtu.be/DOt-CLCuJUY

Ok this got me

Lmao

# ¿ Apr 10, 2018 18:37

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Kalsco posted:

Well, knowing that I gave it another shot. Another 6 shots. Got the last ore I needed for my third upgrade.

I also just lost a cool 3500 geo thanks to the """"""bank"""""" just up and leaving. gently caress me. I just found out entirely missed out on the charm shop and have been 4 notches down this whole time. Could only afford two thanks to that.

Lmao I wish I hadn't spoilered myself on this part of the game so I could have this experience too

# ¿ Apr 12, 2018 14:40

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Darox posted:

The only thing I could find said that the first fight version is slightly slower when using his hand beam, and looking at past videos suggests the second fight has always been this slow and predictable.

It's not like I'm a great player, I died to a bunch of bosses the first time, but Crystal Guardian is a baby.

If you beat Radiance in 4 tries I think you're above average. Pre-nerf Crystal Guardian II was up there with Watcher Knights imo if you faced him early in the game

# ¿ May 1, 2018 14:40

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

PantsBandit posted:

Not to be "that guy" but I didn't have any trouble at all with soul master.

Now the collector on the other hand is an absolute rat bastard and has become the bane of my existence.

Just like every boss, soul master is a lot harder if you fight him early. I fought him as soon as possible and he was a real rough customer. Collector on the other hand I fought after fully upgrading my nail and he just fell over on my second try

# ¿ Jun 16, 2018 20:06

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

veni veni veni posted:

I went in there with the dark dash and quick focus, so they were pretty much a piece cake all though it took me three tries still.

I think boss difficulty varies wildly on when you run into the fight, and what your personal weaknesses are. I think most of them have felt pretty much where I would want them to be. Like, Flukemarm is a nightmare if you go too early, but I came back more powered up and it dropped like a sack of potatoes in seconds. Nosk I just found a safe place to stand right after the fight started which game me plenty of time to heal and get a few hits in.

The only one I have been really drat stuck on, and still haven't beat is Crystal Guardian 2 which people have told me is the "easiest boss in the game" I think he's a loving nightmare. I have so much poo poo now I could probably go back and kill him pretty easy though, but I was at about 100 attempts when I gave up.

Crystal Guardian 2 is probably the boss I�ve seen the most complaints about in this thread and in surveys he ranks highly as one of the more difficult bosses.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2018 23:21

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Wildtortilla posted:

I imagine I'm in the later half of this game. I have kept myself in the dark about everything, but I'm curious - can I lock myself out of any content?

Save Zote.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2018 15:03

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Yeah stuff like letting Zote die or banishing the troupe seems like a strange design choice. It's just a 'gotcha, now you dont get to see cool extra stuff' for those who go into the game unspoilered...

# ¿ Jul 6, 2018 20:42

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Cowcaster posted:

both of those things have to be done almost completely deliberately for them to happen, the latter especially so. that's not a gotcha at all.

I definitely did not mean for Zote to die in my playthrough, I saved him once from some spiders or w/e so I dunno what happened

# ¿ Jul 6, 2018 21:01

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Cowcaster posted:

the only way for zote to die is if you don't save him from the first bug you find chewing on him in the crossroads. if you saved him from the spiders in the deepnest that's way after when he could have possibly died.

If true then something wonky happened to my game save and this whole time I've been thinking, man its way too easy to let zote die

# ¿ Jul 6, 2018 21:08

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

So It Goes posted:

Go to the spot in deepnest. If he�s there save them. If he�s not you already saved him. Then go to the arena and finish the quest. He isn�t dead unless you literally have a glitch in your file.

I did everything including beat him in the arena so I probably have a glitch. I've found a few forum posts with people who have had the same issue but no suggestions to fix it. Mind you my last playthrough was in October so the devs may have caught it.

I'm planning on getting it for the Switch and playing through again so I'll get my chance

# ¿ Jul 6, 2018 21:18

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

garthoneeye posted:

Did you save his girlfriend?

Yep I think that save is just borked. I scoured the wiki trying to find a way to fight grey prince zote but I�ll just have to wait

# ¿ Jul 7, 2018 19:01

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

So It Goes posted:

I don�t care if people don�t like the white palace compared to the other parts of the game but every now and then you get posts claiming it is badly designed and that is so ludicrous. Like, I play platformers like Celeste and Super Meat Boy and White Palace is clearly well designed platforming. Even if you don�t want that in the game, it�s crazy to assert it isn�t well-made platforming. It also has a crazy amount of shortcuts you can take by pogo bouncing off stuff, which is cool.

Imo people who complain about the white palace are LOSERS who can't even beat video games by sitting in a starbucks for 6 hours until your girlfriend gets off work like I did

# ¿ Jul 13, 2018 21:48

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

So It Goes posted:

I honestly can�t believe that�s what you took away from my post. Did you misquote me for someone else who was actually making a �get gud� type argument?

I'm not joking buddy I was between jobs last year and literally sat 6 hours in a starbucks beating white palace

# ¿ Jul 13, 2018 21:57

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

veni veni veni posted:

I can't decide between Celeste, Cuphead, or Ori and the Blind Forest for my next foray into a 2D game.

There�s no chill exploration parts so Cuphead is just extremely tough all the time unlike HK

# ¿ Jul 13, 2018 22:06

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

ozymandOS posted:

I am pretty disappointed in the gameplay that heads toward the true final ending.

It feels like it switches from very entertaining exploration/boss combat/metroidvania to bullshit platformer puzzles. I just rage quit on the true final boss (which is a disguised platforming puzzle) and I'm not sure I'm ever going back to try again. That's pretty unfortunate since I had a great time up until then, and I'd like to see the real ending. But the boss itself is just too much bullshit. (I've made it to phase 4 but trying to jump between platforms while also avoiding the bullshit attacks and waiting for the boss to decide I am allowed to attack it is... just not fun. Even before then there are some attack combinations that feel almost impossible to avoid. And the fact that the homing projectiles can clip through walls for the first ~half second of their existence is EXTREMELY frustrating, especially in phase 4 when they might clip up through a floor to kill me. It's frankly terrible game design to have a boss that you can only attack on its random terms.)

I did enjoy White Palace in the end, though it was pretty different from the rest of the game & not really what I was looking for from Hollow Knight. But I enjoyed Celeste/Meat Boy so the White Palace was fun.

e: watched the true ending on YouTube, uninstalled game, went on with my day. disappointing. if I had understood how bad the final section of the game was, I wouldn't have even started playing. I'd recommend new players not go for the true final ending. the rest is good. (I also didn't do some of the super-dream-bosses/NKG/Zote; other than that I did everything.)

Imagining you seething with anger while watching someone else beat radiance on YouTube lmao

# ¿ Jul 15, 2018 04:52

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

No Wave posted:

that boss is really hard. Theres not a lot of advice for them, just learn to bounce off of them with jump -> slashing downwards if you're not already. But yeah they're tough. Also there's a hidden room before the fight that will let you drop a chandelier on one of them pre-fight so that you fight one fewer, I would recommend taking advantage of that

Sharp Shadow helps a LOT on watcher knights if you have shade cloak, as you can dash through them and deal 1x nail damage even while they're rolling at you

# ¿ Oct 7, 2019 21:02

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

skasion posted:

Hallownest is ruined because everyone is becoming Radiance zombies. The king tried to maintain order by sealing the Radiance away with the HK and the three dreamers, but it didn�t really work (witness the Radiance zombies everywhere) so the king gave up and hid himself and his palace in the dream instead, where he apparently died, insofar as things like him can.

�Old� is not a term we can use very well because the game never gives any specifics at all as to time frame. There were things on the site of Hallownest before Hallownest, and some creatures still alive can remember Hallownest before the Radiance started to mess it up, but how long ago that was in absolute terms we have no idea.

I feel like it's one or two generations, so maybe around a century? I dont think its on the order of thousands of years or anything.

We dont know how old hornet is but she was from before the sealing too and seems rather youngish

# ¿ Oct 7, 2019 21:05

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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 05:12

Capri Sun Tzu: Oct 24, 2017; by Reene

Plus bugs go through different life stages

# ¿ Oct 7, 2019 21:20

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