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Qrr posted:Shido was already the incarnation of “people just want someone to be in charge”. There didn’t need to be some weird robogod. I don't know how many times I've said something similar regarding a Final Fantasy game. JRPGs just like getting all metaphysical at the end. Oxxidation posted:shido's entire storyline was one miserable contrivance after another and every part of the story he touched became shittier because of it. even discounting the fact that the persona games have always dealt with threats that emerge from hostile elements of humanity's collective unconscious, Jesuszord here is still way more palatable than having to put up with anything else from the world's least charismatic criminal mastermind I almost feel like Shido could have been decent if they played up his complex a bit more. "All of these things fell into my lap because the world is choosing me to be its ruler" has the potential to be written well. In execution, though, it's more like "I did the sex once and now everything is going great for me because my son's evil plan is doing literally everything I ask."
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Jan 5, 2019 01:49
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I do like that he knew Akechi was going to try to gently caress him eventually and was like 'Ha, I'll just have him shot with a gun or something when I don't need the idiot'. Because Akechi's plan was a bad plan.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:53
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Grapplejack posted:It's pretty bad. Lots of Kawakami though! 
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Jan 5, 2019 01:58
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Qrr posted:But it’s not the laziness of Tokyo. Ignore the part where it straight up says what it is and try and figure it out. Look at its design or it’s actions or whatever. There’s no relation. Why is laziness a big cup? I dunno, the Holy Grail as a receptacle for Humanity's desires or the ultimate desire of humanity has been a metaphorical thing for a while now, if I'm not mistaken. It's just that in this case, the ultimate desire of humanity (in Japan) is to have someone else take care of all their problems for them. As personified by Shido, the Japanese electorate wanted to foist all of their concerns onto some guy who was going to solve all of their problems and all that. I don't see it as all that big of a stretch. GhostStalker fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 02:05
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Yeah, Shido does not work as a mastermind type at all, with how fast he loses his facade when some teenager sasses him in public and how again it's pretty much all Akechi doing things for him. If the game treated him like the empty suit that he is, it wouldn't be so jarring.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:05
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Robindaybird posted:Yeah, Shido does not work as a mastermind type at all, with how fast he loses his facade when some teenager sasses him in public and how again it's pretty much all Akechi doing things for him. If the game treated him like the empty suit that he is, it wouldn't be so jarring. That's the thing though. If he was actually smart then everybody would be hosed. Through Akechi he was given almost god like powers and instead of trying to build something stable that would work in the long run he built this stupidly elaborate conspiracy that could could only stand up to scrutiny as long as he was the only person who could use the metaverse.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:10
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TheKirbs posted:It's the godly overlord created from the human subconscious who will do the thinking and decision making for the whole of humanity. It even takes the decision of whether it should rule humanity out of their hands.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:17
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Qrr posted:But it’s not the laziness of Tokyo. Ignore the part where it straight up says what it is and try and figure it out. Look at its design or it’s actions or whatever. There’s no relation. Why is laziness a big cup? Why does it pretend to be Igor? When did it start existing and why that particular time? Why does it set up a competition between Akechi and Maaku? It wasn’t even really a competition because Akechi wasn’t working to increase apathy, he just wanted revenge in the stupidest way possible. And for a rigged competition where it planned to ignore the result anyway it sure did help out Maaku a lot. Why the Holy Grail? There is the connection between the Holy Grail and the Heart in the suits of Cards. There is also the Holy Grail being synonymous with 'something that is widely desired', and also because you want there to be a Treasure of Mementos, and when you go for a Treasure that lays claim to divinity, the Holy Grail is a good pick there. Why pretend to be Igor? Well, Igor said a trickster would rise to challenge the Holy Grail. So what better gently caress you to Igor than to trick that trickster with his very own guise? Considering Igor is very much all about hope and humanity's potential and he himself guiding it, having someone pulling like this is sure to piss him off majorly. The competition between Akechi and Maaku is kind of muddled because there were two 'competitions' here. The original idea of 'Trickster' who would represent humanity, and if he won, The Grail would gently caress off and leave them alone, and the Grail's champion. However, since the Grail was 'actually, gently caress your rules, Alpha Strike on the Velvet Room' he got to set the game up to his own liking. I mean, yeah, he could have just said 'right, no personas for anyone, let's just calmly gather my power and start ruling the world', but I think these Gods just really like to do things in games. Considering what Fake-Igor says to you if you die, I kind of take it that to him, it's the conflict of Rehabilitation VS Ruin. If Akechi wins, the Grail would have just ended the entire world as not even to be rehabilitated, because Akechi, in his action, freely deals death, working together with the worst of humanity. Akechi is the Champion of Ruin. Maaku, on the other hand, is hard at work making sure that people that are terrible and evil don't get killed, but get put into the Prison of Regression, and the Phantom Thieves themselves, at their height of popularity become someone to whom responsibility is shifted to. Makau is he Champion of Rehabilitation. I mean, of course, none of these players know that's what they're representing, and you'll notice there is no 'The Holy Grail fucks off' outcome here. But then 'This is an unjust game' is one of the first things said to us. The game tends to give us several situations where 'the game is rigged' both in the main story and in the confidants. Of course, all of this is interpretation.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:17
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Considering the above, our egregore as final boss is probably a representation of bad faith.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:44
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Sylphosaurus posted:Goddamnit, the nations of the world really ought to send their entire worth of psychologists and therapists to the people of Japan, considering how many apocalypses their lovely psychological health causes.  (I'd be down for a non-Japan Persona game, but I suspect they wouldn't know what to do without the Japanese school structure to fall back on. Same with a modern Persona with adult protagonists.)
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Jan 5, 2019 02:45
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Haifisch posted:There's probably a bunch of apocalypses almost happening worldwide all the time, it's just that we only get Persona games about the ones in Japan. I feel like you could set one in an American college without changing too much.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:52
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Grapplejack posted:I feel like you could set one in an American college without changing too much. Whoa guys we shouldn't be drinking alcohol!!!!! 
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Jan 5, 2019 02:53
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I'd ask how they'd shoehorn in the obligatory trip, but that could just be spring break.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:57
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Haifisch posted:I'd ask how they'd shoehorn in the obligatory trip, but that could just be spring break. Yeah, you'd probably need to fudge the dates a bit to have things start later in the year since fall semesters start in late August instead of the late April of the Japanese system's school year, but extend the timeline past Christmas, and you might have something there.
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Jan 5, 2019 03:01
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The problems with Japan's collective unconsciousness ended the world once.
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Jan 5, 2019 05:13
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In addition to hearts representing the Holy GrailArist posted:
The cards also represent a caste system, and hearts represents clergymen/saints, the top caste (in this set of four) and, you know, divinity.
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Jan 5, 2019 06:29
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Excellent! Yes, the answer is the Holy Grail. The heart was originally drawn as a cup. 
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And Igor not being Igor was foreshadowed the entire game too..Arist posted:SOLD It also at least removed some 'comedic' segments like Ryuji's swimsuit plan and his getting beaten up by the girls after the ship sinks. On the other hand even with OVA pacing it cant properly mimic the plot escalation from the game.
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Jan 5, 2019 11:00
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Also mercifully absent in the anime, Yusuke blackmailing Ann into the nude modelling. It's still there but it's a case of 'he kicked us out, and we really need to get in there to open the door' Sadly present in the beach episode. Makoto spiking a volleyball right into Ryuji's face hard enough to leave a mark, then high-fiving Ann about it.
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Jan 5, 2019 13:41
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Part 192: 12/24: Deadly Sins Music: Blood of Villain    This is crazy! It’s like a building! It was already huge back when it was the Holy Grail…! The administrator must guide mankind toward proper development. And now that the foolishness of man has been proven, it is the administrator’s duty to purge them. You kidding!? This is just some kinda rigged game you started! The foolish masses merely spread indolent thoughts and force the progress of society backward. If left to humanity, the world would slowly meet its demise. Rehabilitation is impossible now. That doesn’t mean humans are evil though! Indeed. There are many upstanding citizens. However, they merely take the sole path before them. The act of making decisions is accompanied by nothing but pain. Even if a cliff of ruin lie ahead, these lemmings would march on without a second thought…    If this is all for the sake of humanity, wouldn’t being beaten by humans satisfy you? I am the entity which governs this world. Its future depends wholly on my leadership. Those who dare defy this natural order shall be met with punishment raining down from the heavens.   Ngh…! Rgh…! That thing’s on a totally different level! Can we defeat something like him?    What bigger target could there be for the Phantom Thieves to tackle? (smiling) Although… it’s still way too big for my liking. All right, I’ll give the navigation everything I’ve got! We can do this if we all work together! Let’s take him down! Crowning our glory by defeating a god… Now that is true art. We basically just gotta beat that thing, right!?  I’m so glad I was able to be a part of your team…     Well put. Let’s finish this. Boss: God of Control, Yaldabaoth Music: Yaldabaoth A note about this song: for some weird-rear end reason, its official spelling is “Jaldabaoth,” which is… wrong. This extends even to the iTunes release of the soundtrack with changed names for some of the songs. More recent titles have fixed this misspelling, but it’s still really odd. Also: I keep waffling back and forth on it, but I just don’t think this song is very good!  No tolerance, no mercy.That quote is from the wiki, which I guess I’ll trust because my only guess for what he was saying before I read it was “No providence, no mess.”  ...You shall perish.  Right on. We got this. How tough can he really be, after all?  Ah geez that’s a lotta health   Yaldabaoth’s main attack is Arrow of Light, which is a powerful single-target Almighty attack. Yaldabaoth only gets one turn though, which is fortunate for us… though also rather suspicious. What’ve you got up your sleeve?    Still a ton of health (15000, to be precise), but we’re chipping away at it. As you’ll notice, though, Yaldy takes a good deal less damage than the Grail. Also every time we attack him, he shouts some bullshit like “PERISH.” or “BOW DOWN.” or “STOP, YOU FOOLS.” It’s great.  Huh?  The insanity of mankind shall bring forth the demise…  A mechanical arm suddenly appears.        Don’t let your guard down until we know what it does! You okay there, Maaku? You’ve got the Pepé Le Pew eyes.   Oh poo poo, Maaku was too busy masturbating to take his turn. Hate when that happens. Lust is a special ailment that cannot be purified with skills or items. It’s basically identical to Fear in that it causes you to lose turns, though without the chance to flee (which wouldn’t have activated anyway because this is a boss fight). Again, we can’t get rid of it, so we’ll just have to put up with its effects for now. Thankfully, it’ll wear off after a single turn.  Oh poo poo, another one!?  The fraudulence of mankind shall bring forth ruin…        Oh hey, it’s just Madarame’s lame painting gimmick. Get your own boss mechanics!  So, if you can’t tell yet, we’re going to go through all the sins in order, each one corresponding with a different mechanic. Yaldy’s basically Kevin Spacey, but in hindsight more human-like and less of an unfeeling predatory sociopath.   Thanks for the charge, Futaba! The great thing about her charge move is that it gives you both Charge and Concentrate, meaning that you can unleash a charged Physical/Gun and a charged magic attack on two consecutive turns.  Anyway, let’s guard with Maaku so we don’t get hosed up while we’re weak.   The attachments Yaldy summons only have 1500 health. We want to get rid of them as soon as we can, because every one he has summoned is another turn he can take. The Gun of Execution can also use Capital Punishment (shoot one ally) or Shoot Up (shoot three allies). Every one of these attachments also repels two damage types. The gun repels Gun (duh) and Wind.     Gospel just deals damage to one ally. The Bell of Declaration can also use Frail Law (lowers the party’s Defense) or Tough Law (raises the Defense of Yaldabaoth and his attachments). It repels Fire and Psychokinesis.   Maaku’s free of the Vanity effect, so let’s take down the bell.   The selfishness of mankind shall bring forth ruin…      Wait, what!?  He may keep switching up his moves! Let’s be careful! Well, let’s take a look at the damage…  CHRIST  OH MY GOD  Yeah, let’s just guard for this turn…  Whew…    Ouch.   As you can see, the Sword of Conviction repels Electricity.   It also uses Wind Cutter to damage one ally and Sword of Judgment to damage all of them, as shown.     The sword also repels Physical, how fun! That means that Ryuji is totally incapable of damaging it without using bullets!  Anyway, let’s get rid of that annoying sword.    You have no chance to survive make your time. The passion of mankind shall bring forth ruin…    Oh no… a book… how terrifying…     Wrath is basically just Rage, but with a fun twist. It keeps the standard “Attack way up, Defense way down” aspect, but you get to choose your actions instead of being forced to melee a random target.   Let’s see how much this Atomic Flare does to this loving book under the effect of Wrath.  Dammit. So, yeah, the Book of Commandments repels Nuclear and Ice.   It can also use Wrath of God to attack an ally, or Agidyne or Bufudyne.  Cool it, Futaba. It’s about to wear off.     Wait, the gun’s back!? So yeah, eventually Yaldy will resummon his defeated attachments with half health. He also adds a new twist to their repertoire…   The fixation of mankind shall bring forth ruin…    Uhh… that’s just Hunger. It’s not even a special Hunger, either, you can purify that poo poo off her immediately! What, could you not figure out a real mechanic for Greed?   Yaldabaoth also possesses Dekaja and Dekunda, in case you thought you could actually count on buffs and debuffs. I’m not saying don’t use them, I’m just saying this dude is gonna make it really annoying for you.     And now the bell’s back.   The resentment of mankind shall bring forth ruin…     What does Envy do…? Well… nothing, in this take. To see the consequences of Envy, let’s switch over to my second recording:  Say, Makoto’s looking a little starved for SP, let’s take care of that.    There we go, good as new!  Uhhh…  gently caress, dude! (That was charged, for the record, Maaku’s not throwing out 400 damage melees regularly) So, Envy’s effect causes the afflicted party member to attack another party member if they receive “support” from a third party member. This “support” can come in many forms: healing, buffs, you name it.  But now we need healing, so let’s take care of it.    Wait, what? Apparently, Envy also activates even if your “support” is multi-target, which really doesn’t make sense because they’re supposed to be getting jealous that they’re not receiving attention or whatever. Anyway, back to the first take.      And now we have to deal with the book again.   The ingratitude of mankind shall bring forth ruin…     Pride’s effect is invoking some kind of counterattack if you attack during the turn it’s used. In this take I’m smart enough to avoid doing that, so let’s head back to the alternate:      So, attacking while Pride is active will cause your SP to be drained. Notably, an attack that kills the book will not proc this counterattack. We’ll head back to the original take, but… that’s all the sins! I mean, I get not doing Akechi’s Emptiness, but there should really have been something for Sloth. You included Vanity but not Sloth? Weak. Just throw Sleep out there, unless you’re worried that inflicting an ailment that heals you isn’t in the spirit of this, whatever. It’s also really weird because it means the sword doesn’t get a second ability.  Anyway, we spend the counter turn buffing and charging.   I also give Maaku Tetrakarn, which is hella stupid. Yaldabaoth doesn’t have any Physical or Gun attacks; according to this presumably-datamined stat chart I found for him on the wiki, his Strength is a paltry 28. The only Physical or Gun attacks in this entire fight are courtesy of the sword and the gun, but they’re immune to the element they use so Tetrakarn is pointless. Makarakarn doesn’t fare much better, either. Most of the magic attacks here are Almighty, which doesn’t get reflected by Makarakarn, and the only applicable spells that do get cast are Agidyne and Bufudyne from the book, one of which it is also immune to.  Anyway, we can attack now.  If we take too long Yaldy can still whip out his attachments without new abilities.  We’ve been holding on to these Somas all game, let’s use one just for the hell of it.   That hit the spot.  Oh hey, we’re almost done! Yaldy probably doesn’t have any tricks left, so I suppose we’re home fre--     Ah poo poo.  You have no means of escape, humans.  As you pass through the gates of destruction…    Well, that don’t look good.  Some kind of insane attack’s coming! Watch out!  We have two turns to prepare for this, but this game has been really inconsistent about that so there’s no real way of knowing it. What I’m pretty sure the game wants you to do here is kill as many of the attachments as fast as you possibly can. Of the four times I’ve fought this boss, I’ve tried that three times, and it’s never worked out for me. Either I kill some, get wrecked by the attack and get saved by Final Guard, or I gently caress them up so hard the boss dies before even using the attack.  On this attempt, I decided that I would just say “gently caress it” and guard it out like a coward.   And once more.        Wow, that was rough. I maybe shoulda killed some of them things, huh? Oh well. Sorry you almost died, Haru. Let’s just finish this.  Backstreet’s back, all right.    Fools opposing a god…!            *screams of anguish*
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Jan 5, 2019 17:58
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So, yeah, it’s just SMT at this point
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Jan 5, 2019 18:22
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A reminder the very first SMT game was kicked off by a shitlord right wing ultranationalist launching a coup in Japan to try to raise the ancient traditional Gods after a scientist accidentally found a way into hell during a teleportation experiment. So yeah, we're in straight SMT territory.
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Jan 5, 2019 18:28
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the distortion over Yaldy’s voice is really irritating sometimes it’s so thick you can barely make out what he’s saying
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Jan 5, 2019 18:29
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There's something funny about him growing an arm to pull out a gun. Also, wouldn't it make more sense to describe lust as passion and wrath as insanity? And isn't vanity essentially the same as pride? Why is it listed twice? Arist posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYwL-FzFDKQ Arist posted:
I guess it's like "How DARE you take even a fraction of attention away from me?  "
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 18:53
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Night10194 posted:A reminder the very first SMT game was kicked off by a shitlord right wing ultranationalist launching a coup in Japan to try to raise the ancient traditional Gods after a scientist accidentally found a way into hell during a teleportation experiment. Ah Thorman. God he'll never truly live that one down. Also I really like this boss, it's a good capstone for the game, theme sells what kind of enemy it is too. Also, for his charge attack, you need to start killing the arms where you can. I'm not sure if he heals already alive arms, but he definitely likes to bring in fully healed arms where he has none. God help you if you're playing on the DLC difficulty too, all non-weakness damage is brought down immensely so it's a battle of attrition at that point instead of a brawl.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:10
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This boss fight is alright, but in terms of pure spectacle and atmosphere and music and everything, it's totally outclassed by the fight with Shido. I even think the fight with Akechi was a little more exciting.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:10
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Hold on, what? I never saw that final attack. And by never saw, I don't mean "  please, I'm to good to have that go off "I mean I never saw the set-up. Boss straight up went into the Cutscene Zone, and I was playing on hard
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Jan 5, 2019 19:16
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Kemix posted:Ah Thorman. God he'll never truly live that one down. Oh, I was referring to Goto. Thorman was 'God doesn't understand geopolitics and that a sudden US ICBM launch towards Japan without any explanation might cause WWIII'.
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Jan 5, 2019 19:19
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freshlybaked posted:This boss fight is alright, but in terms of pure spectacle and atmosphere and music and everything, it's totally outclassed by the fight with Shido. I even think the fight with Akechi was a little more exciting. and in terms of final bosses Nyx and Izanami were way better design-wise, Yaldy's way too stiff and that wasp-waisted mecha look is kind of ridiculous
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Jan 5, 2019 19:19
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Oxxidation posted:and in terms of final bosses Nyx and Izanami were way better design-wise, Yaldy's way too stiff and that wasp-waisted mecha look is kind of ridiculous Nyx Avatar is almost impossible to top. Mechanically I like this fight more than Izanami's. Though the seven sin quotes is getting a little close to the thirteen arcana quotes from Nyx. Meanwhile his music is rather repetitive for such a long fight. (On the other hand it doesnt at least sound as bizarre or exhausting as Izanami's twopart dirge. Persona 4 really needed music transitions) I never saw the final attack either. He didnt get a chance to do that massheal setup stuff even. quote:And isn't vanity essentially the same as pride? Why is it listed twice? Vanity is its own separate sin in a lot of sources (and was Madarame's sin as well in this game). Its just not one of the major seven.
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Jan 5, 2019 20:22
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A big flaw that Yaldabaoth has in his boss fight is that he brings out his weapons and powers when he gets to certain health thresholds. But waits until his turn to do so, and bringing out a new weapon and using it's ability takes up his whole turn. He would be much tougher and go through his ability properly if he brought out his new stuff when he is brought to the threshold right away, rather than waiting is turn. As he is now you can hit him enough that you can basically skip two of his turns in a row sometimes.
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Jan 5, 2019 23:10
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Yeah the first time I beat him I didn't even bother ever attacking the limbs. The status effects are annoying but if you're decent enough level it's easy to DPS through 15K health relatively quickly. Granted I was also cheesing the hell out of him with debilitate, which at least in my experience made him constantly want to waste his turn with Dekunda.
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Jan 5, 2019 23:13
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I think "Jaldabaoth" is technically correct, but its pronounced with a 'Y', it comes from Hebrew or something. Presumably they changed it to "Yaldabaoth" in-game so people wouldn't get hung up on the pronunciation right at the climax. Actually its kind of unclear which came first, I'm also seeing "ialdabaoth". Now that I think about it, it probably just depends on the language you're translating to. D1Sergo fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 5, 2019 |
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Jan 5, 2019 23:23
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D1Sergo posted:I think "Jaldabaoth" is technically correct, but its pronounced with a 'Y', it comes from Hebrew or something. I just called him "Yaldy" as I saw others online were referring to him that way in short hand, I guess less chance to make a spelling mistake that way.
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Jan 6, 2019 01:09
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:And isn't vanity essentially the same as pride? Why is it listed twice? Madarame was vanity, Shido was pride. Vanity was subsumed into pride for the big 7, but it and emptiness are their own things.
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Jan 6, 2019 02:33
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GeneX posted:So, yeah, it’s just SMT at this point But yes, I do agree that the game not coming up with something to represent Sloth for this boss fight is well, lazy and slothful in its own right. This is a franchise where things like debuffs and status ailments are made into a big deal, and you mean to tell me that the staff couldn't think of anything for Sloth? Hell, I'd make the "skills cost double amount" condition be what Sloth represents as it fits the sin's general description: you are so lazy that it takes double the effort to do something. Or go one step further and make it that your agility and accuracy while afflicted with the Sloth status effect both drop to 0 (or at least get halved) on top of the doubled skill cost condition.
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Jan 6, 2019 02:58
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D1Sergo posted:I think "Jaldabaoth" is technically correct, but its pronounced with a 'Y', it comes from Hebrew or something. I wonder if someone was thinking of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when they said that.
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Jan 6, 2019 03:06
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AradoBalanga posted:I'm half-expecting Yaldabaoth's body to dissolve after the incoming cutscene (no, that's not a spoiler; I've seen enough boss fights to know where this game is going) and reveal his final form is YHVH at this point. Well Yaldabaoth himself is sloth.
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Jan 6, 2019 03:12
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AradoBalanga posted:I'm half-expecting Yaldabaoth's body to dissolve after the incoming cutscene (no, that's not a spoiler; I've seen enough boss fights to know where this game is going) and reveal his final form is YHVH at this point. Yaldabaoth more or less is YHWH, just from a particular gnostic interpretation of the hebrew tanakh where god is evil and all the angels are too it's annoying and I wish the SMT series would use literally any other esoteric mysticism from the era, it leads to conflation of kabbalah with gnostic theology and eventually with casting specifically judaism as evil through misuse of jewish symbology and figures
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Jan 6, 2019 03:36
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GeneX posted:Yaldabaoth more or less is YHWH, just from a particular gnostic interpretation of the hebrew tanakh where god is evil and all the angels are too Yaldabaoth to be correct is the Demiurge. A powerful god like being that could not recognize any other aspects of the divine and so thought of itself as the true creator and almighty being.
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Jan 6, 2019 03:39
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This update alone justifies the existence of all the Persona dance games.
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Jan 6, 2019 03:44
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