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resurgam40 posted:Indeed, and this is an SMT game we speak of, after all; it just wouldn't be right if you portrayed it as an effortless experience with no loss or scary bits. Other bosses, use your discretion, but here? It'd be more informative to see both. If you're playing on Hard then that's probably true, but on Normal you're only walking a tightrope for the first Palace. With the exception of a few encounters, most enemies afterwards don't have enough mojo to turn a single knockdown into a defeat.
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May 26, 2017 18:46
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There's always the unlucky Hama or Mudo spell taking Joker out to worry about.
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May 26, 2017 18:52
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GhostStalker posted:There's always the unlucky Hama or Mudo spell taking Joker out to worry about.
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May 26, 2017 19:19
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:For some reason I feel like P5 is really really biased against targeting Joker with instant death. There are plenty of rear end in a top hat regular enemies with Hama and Mudo, but I don't recall Joker getting targeted once by one in my entire run through the game. I'd say I was just lucky, but that feels like way too long to be a coincidence. Actually, I can't recall Joker ever being targeted by instant death either. Also, I'm pretty sure I went through the entire game without having Mahama or Mamudo used against me even once.
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May 26, 2017 19:41
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It happens, trust me.
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May 26, 2017 19:46
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I can think of one enemy in particular that just constantly hounded my Joker with instant death spells.
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May 26, 2017 21:08
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Yeah I have it happen to me too on occasion if I can't end a fight within my first rounds. I never got an unceremonious game over from it this time around, but I'm sure I'd have been super salty if I did.
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May 26, 2017 21:22
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Unlucky insta-kill have given me much grief in one of the later palaces.
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May 26, 2017 21:33
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Phew, caught up on thread. This seems very interesting, so I'll be sure to stay updated on it, but I doubt I'll comment much.
I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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May 26, 2017 23:16
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Yeah, like 9/10 game overs I got after the first palace were due to Joker getting KO'd. Hopefully they change that for the inevitable enhanced edition down the line.
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May 27, 2017 01:23
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It always seemed like a weird mechanic in a game with instakill spells. I mean I don't get a game over when Ryuji goes down. Is the rest of the team just completely incapable of using a revival item unless Joker is telling them to do it?
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May 27, 2017 02:11
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It's a hold-over from Persona 3 where you dying unleashed the avatar of death upon the world . I have no idea why they've kept it in P4/5 when those games are much easier than 3 in most other ways.
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May 27, 2017 02:54
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dragon_pamcake posted:It's a hold-over from Persona 3 where you dying unleashed the avatar of death upon the world . I have no idea why they've kept it in P4/5 when those games are much easier than 3 in most other ways. P4 had the whole "last boss testing humanity via these three chosen people" thing so if the MC died they 'failed' and fog for everyone.
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May 27, 2017 03:21
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Shinji117 posted:P4 had the whole "last boss testing humanity via these three chosen people" thing so if the MC died they 'failed' and fog for everyone. I honestly glossed over all the (P4 spoiler) Izanami stuff but I guess (vague P5 spoiler) the same holds true for P5? You've failed "the game" after all.
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May 27, 2017 04:17
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Stop posting spoilers in this thread, please.
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May 27, 2017 04:58
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I'm in the minority I guess but I'm actually a-okay with Joker dying causing a game over. Persona MCs are so OP anyway with how they can shuffle their weaknesses around and use every element that this mechanic (+ the sheer amount of SP Maaku tends to use) at least resembles an attempt at balancing. It also helps that you can retry bosses and mini-bosses in this game.
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May 27, 2017 05:21
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It's a very bad mechanic because you don't always get a chance to shuffle your guys around to find someone to counter the enemy before they gank you. Getting killed because you started with the wrong dude and the enemy got 2 turns and killed you – before you could do anything – enforces tedium when combined with the lack of autosaving before all battles and the inability of your party members to fight on while you're unconscious.
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May 27, 2017 06:01
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Not to mention that it renders any Persona with a weakness to Light or Dark essentially unusable.
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May 27, 2017 07:12
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GeneX posted:It's a very bad mechanic because you don't always get a chance to shuffle your guys around to find someone to counter the enemy before they gank you. Reminds me of how Final Fantasy X gives you seven party members, but you get a Game Over when the first three in the party die. I guess the other four just sit on their thumbs.
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May 27, 2017 07:15
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Blue Labrador posted:I'm in the minority I guess but I'm actually a-okay with Joker dying causing a game over. Persona MCs are so OP anyway with how they can shuffle their weaknesses around and use every element that this mechanic (+ the sheer amount of SP Maaku tends to use) at least resembles an attempt at balancing. It also helps that you can retry bosses and mini-bosses in this game. Correction: you only get to straight retry from boss/miniboss fights on the easiest difficulty. Any other difficulty will at minimum punt you back to your last safe room.
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May 27, 2017 07:17
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Materant posted:Correction: you only get to straight retry from boss/miniboss fights on the easiest difficulty. Any other difficulty will at minimum punt you back to your last safe room. Watching people struggle with bosses is way more dramatic. Has more character, too. Even if the commentary says "I redid this fight later because I had to waste some super-important healing items", that's okay, just as long as I got to see the entertaining run.
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May 27, 2017 07:23
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Materant posted:Correction: you only get to straight retry from boss/miniboss fights on the easiest difficulty. Any other difficulty will at minimum punt you back to your last safe room. Incorrect, I play on Hard and you definitely get to retry bosses/minibosses.
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May 27, 2017 07:44
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Look guys, nobody 'dies' when they get knocked out, so getting a gameover with the MC 'dying' is stupid. It doesn't matter what your logic is, you aren't dead. You can still be healed. Even after battle, you're up and walking just fine with 1 HP. I am incredibly salty against this mechanic, especially in a game with instant death skills. And I've had enemies spam Joker with those skills. ...hats off to you for completing the palace in one day though.
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May 27, 2017 08:17
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at least in this game I can imagine its 'cognitive death' but considering a gameover leads you to the velvet room, I just assumed Igor has some strict rules for wild card users
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May 27, 2017 09:11
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DeafNote posted:at least in this game I can imagine its 'cognitive death' Edit Let's not talk about how P5 could corroborate or contradict this theory, please.
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May 27, 2017 09:16
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For all we know, it could be there for strictly gameplay purposes, just to make the player angry. Because it's ATLUS. In fact, that is probably what it is. They could easily remove it, but why should they, when it causes grief.
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May 27, 2017 11:43
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Atlus does unironically love their salt.
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May 27, 2017 12:57
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Materant posted:Atlus does unironically love their salt. In response to a video making fun of DSP ragequitting Persona 3. 
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May 27, 2017 13:04
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There's something beautiful about not only a game developer calling out DSP on being a lovely player, but also the idea of ATLUS trolling someone with their notorious difficulty. 
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May 27, 2017 13:59
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:There's something beautiful about not only a game developer calling out DSP on being a lovely player, but also the idea of ATLUS trolling someone with their notorious difficulty. Considering one of their (more well known) taglines is "We get off on your tears"? It doesn't surprise me they aren't afraid to poke fun at people with their official channels.
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May 27, 2017 14:26
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Part 16: 4/22: Forked Tongue It’s the day we’re stealing Kamoshida’s Treasure. Time to head to school and see what Ryuji’s prepared. Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)   I haven’t been able to get any even once. Oh, don’t you know? It’s always sold out on Mondays, but there’s usually some left over on Fridays. Are you serious!? I’ll finally be able to get some yakisoba pan today! Huh, I guess there’s a lot in this world you can only get for a limited time or during certain seasons... Do you want to try to get some? I’ll come with you.Nah. We’ve got other things to do today, Morgana.   I heard it was already posted by the time everyone got here this morning.  “We know how lovely you are, and that you put your twisted desires on students that can’t fight back. That’s why we have decided to steal away those desires and make you confess your sins. This will be done tomorrow, so we hope you will be ready. From, the Phantom Thieves of Hearts.” Music: Disquiet   I looked up a bunch of similar stuff online for reference. Um… Yeah… I know what you wanted to say, but it sounded like an idiot trying to be an adult. OK, y’know what? Th-That ain’t true!  Does this mean the rumors are true!? Wait a sec… Is someone gonna take something from Mr. Kamoshida…? What’s with this weird logo? And who’re these Phantom Thieves of Hearts people…? ...It got everyone excited, so it’s all good, yeah?  Who’s responsible for this…!? ...Look at that. A predictable reaction for someone who knows what we mean by distorted desires. I think it’s hittin’ him pretty hard. Did you do this!? Or was it you!?The students scatter.   What garbage… Eh, it’s not a problem. You’ll be expelled soon enough anyway.Music: Tension     The scene returns to normal, and Kamoshida walks away.  Does that mean the Treasure’s appeared!? We’ll be able to get it today, right? It’s not just “today.” It’s ONLY today. The impact of seeing a calling card doesn’t last long, and it cannot be repeated. This will be our one chance to steal the Treasure. One day’s more than enough for us!   Music: Life Will Change (Instrumental Version) (Worth a listen) One great thing that happens on the day you steal the Treasure is that this song will play uninterrupted by anything except entering the Velvet Room. It's really great. But, uh, speaking of which...   Before we steal the Treasure, we have one last Persona to fuse.  It’s this Mokoi, from Saki Mitama and Kelpie.   I am the soul of your shadow… So that would be why I’m becoming your mask...Mokoi are evil spirits in Australian folklore who used dark magic and kidnapped children in the night to eat them. One of them’s part of our soul now!  All right, let’s head into the castle.  Huh? The door’s open.  This place is probably undermanned now that they all got assigned elsewhere. Either way, we win as long as we can steal the Treasure! Let’s keep going! Worth noting: The pillars flanking the entrance are a pair of giant legs. Ugh.    Man, it’s huge! What do you think!? It’s just as I said! Now we can steal it! Ahh… this shine brings tears to my eyes... ...It kinda pisses me off. Why’s it so pretty…? Isn’t this Kamoshida’s desires? Uh, the cat’s actin’ awfully excited. What’s wrong? Is something…? Mrrrrroooooow!     You were completely out of character too. What was that about? I couldn’t stop it either… To think I’d be drawn to human desires this much… Doesn’t that prove that I’m human!? How should we know!? A-Anyway, you guys need to carry it! All you do is bark orders... His Palace will disappear if we take this back, right? And Kamoshida will change too... ...That should be the case. Good. Now’s our chance then. To think it’d go so well… I’ve even found three Persona users in the process… My judgment was correct. I made the right choice in making a deal with you!  I feel like my bond with Morgana is growing deeper... We finally get Baton Pass for Morgana, far too late for it to actually help us with this Palace. Whatever, let’s just drag this giant crown outside.  Hm?    Kamoshida spikes...   Right on target.   Kamoshida does a magnificent leaping spiral. Music: Blood of Villain  He should really shave those legs, though.    The crown shines a brilliant blinding light...  …and reappears, small, in Kamoshida’s hand.   That rat bastard… That’s how he sees me, isn’t it!? Yo, pervert. Were you waitin’ to ambush us? I just made it easier to find you. I’ll dispose of you myself. Right here, right now. What a selfish misunderstanding... This translation could probably have used another pass, yikes. The people around me were the ones who kept it secret. Adults who want to share in my accomplishments, students who have the drive to become winners… They willingly protect me so that we all may profit from it. Profit!? There are too many imbeciles who don’t understand that! Including naive brats like you and that girl who tried to kill herself! Wow, Ann. Harsh.  But no matter what kind of fool someone might be… They don’t need your permission to live their lives! Drop the attitude, you mediocre peasant! There’s no wrong in using my gifts for my gain! I’m a cut above all other humans! Above...? You mean beneath! You’re a goddamn demon obsessed with your sick desires!     Music: Blooming Villain (Worth a listen)    ...Well, that’s certainly a change.  I’m allowed to do whatever the hell I want!   Boss: Suguru Asmodeus Kamoshida  So, this is the ultimate form of Shadow Kamoshida. He’s known as Asmodeus, a reference to a king of demons from the Book of Tobit. He represents the deadly sin of lust.   We should catch him off guard and steal it! Let’s attack him and wait for that opportunity! We use three Personas in this fight, primarily: Bicorn for Tarunda, Genbu for Rakunda, and that Mokoi we just fused for its Skull Cracker, which as a Medium Physical attack is stronger than anything else in our arsenal. It's worth noting that boss fights in this game have some unique properties. They don't have any weaknesses and can't be critted (so no knockdowns or Baton Passes), and are immune to all ailments. That removes a lot of the more interesting and fun battle strategies, sadly.  Tragically, however, I’m too much of a dumbass to realize Skull Cracker is Medium instead of Light, so I waste Ryuji’s Tarukaja on himself instead of Maaku.   Volleyball Assault is the main reason we want to keep Tarunda up. It doesn’t hit for much even unhindered, but it can strike up to three times. Oh, and Asmodeus gets to attack twice per turn. If you don’t reduce his attack, healing can become a full-time job.  A funny thing happens when we get Asmodeus down to about half.     He eats one of the figures in his trophy for a full heal.  Come at me, you pieces of poo poo! I ain’t lettin’ you sleep tonight!  So, we’ve just got to focus down the trophy instead. Gotcha.   You don’t know what this is worth, so stop touching it! Don’t do it anymore, got it? I’ve warned you! When someone tells us not to do something, it makes us want to do it even more! While we work on destroying that trophy, we have to deal with Asmodeus’ Tongue Whip, which hits everyone...    ...as well as his Lustful Slurp, which raises his attack, meaning we need to Tarunda again. That figure in the glass he's taking a swig of? Cognitive Ann. Eugh.  He’ll also follow the lead of the Torn King of Desire and stare at Ann.    He then… licks her. All right.  One smashed trophy later…  No way… This was from when I won the national... All right!  ...I am Kamoshida! Don’t you get it!? Huh…!? Like I keep saying! I am Kamoshida! I’m the king! You look down on everyone… but you’re seriously lame right now. We came all this way to steal that! Will you just give it up and hand it over? Silence! I won’t let the likes of you have this! You still have the energy to say things like that!? Then we’re going to up our game as well!  I’m the king…! If I’m not, then who is!? We won’t get anywhere with brute force...   This is an explanation of a new mechanic to the series, wherein we can send party members to perform tasks for us in the heat of battle to help us out. It’s not super involved or even always that useful, sadly. What do we do!? I see… In that case, time for Plan B! While the others are drawing Kamoshida’s attention, have someone go there! Let’s steal the Treasure without him noticing! Kamoshida will now start using Golden Knife to deal a ton of damage, which is a good incentive to keep Tarunda up.  Sure, let’s send someone.  Ann’s got too much heat right now, so a poor choice for a stealth mission.  And let’s keep Morgana just for the sake of healing.  Alright, you’re up, Ryuji. Gotcha. Keep him distracted by attackin’ him!  Now Ryuji will be unavailable for a good portion of the battle.  Slaves! Bring over you-know-what! Time for my killshot from when I was active and rockin’ it! Killshot… as in I’ll make the kill! So, at around this point I’m thinking, “They’ll probably give me two turns, right? For ultimate moves, the boss generally gives you two turns in Persona games, so you get a chance to heal and what-not. I’m probably fine this turn.”  “But let’s guard to be safe and have Morgana heal Joker, it’d really suck to die here because you still game over when the protagonist dies.”       “Oops.”  Morgana, sadly, was not guarding, and is KO’d instantly because the attack deals only slightly less than his maximum HP.  In the middle of all this, Asmodeus will mix things up by recycling old moves like Lustful Slurp, forcing us to Tarunda again. Eventually, we deal enough damage between heals to move onto the next step:  You’re the only ones who don’t respect me, you know! Anyway. Now’s my chance! Some more damage later:  They came on to me because they wanted to get on my good side! But at least it’s lettin’ me get closer to the Treasure. Ryuji’s finally in place. Just a bit more to go.  ...Ah, I get it! You want to see my killshot again, don’t you?Ah poo poo.  I ended up healing Maaku and Morgana here for… some reason. Morgana was hosed no matter what, but I guess I assumed that Ann could survive the attack.   I was wrong. Welp, that’s the story of how I managed to gently caress up both killshots.  Eventually, we manage to get him down to half.  I knew it! They’re missing! Where’d they go!?   All right, way to go Ryuji.     Kamoshida’s now “dejected.” What does that mean? Well…  We now do about four or five times as much damage. Now we just finish him off.    And that’s Asmodeus down. Arist fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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May 29, 2017 18:30
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I appreciate the attempts they made with this mechanic to make fights more interesting, even if it effectively just boils down to "wail on him with three" instead of "wail on him with four".
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May 29, 2017 19:37
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I thought for sure you were going to let Ann get the final hit.
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May 29, 2017 19:38
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Most bosses in this game have a super attack that can easily wipe the party if you don't guard. The problem is that some have longer grace periods than others, with one in particular being hellishly difficult to predict. It really sucks to get a game over because you spent an extra turn healing Joker to full health only to realise moments later that you should have had him guard instead.
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May 29, 2017 19:50
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You didn't mention it, but the cup Kamoshida takes his Lustful Slurps from has the cognitive Ann in a bikini in it. You can imagine what he does with her based off of the attack name, before dumping her back in the cup. If you needed one more reason to hate the shitbag.
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May 29, 2017 19:53
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The boss fight, while not TOO terribly difficult, is a nice tutorial of sorts into what to expect from your palace designated boss fights. Shame the new mechanic isn't utilized as well as it COULD have been, but it's nice to see. Also Life Will Change and Blooming Villain are drat good songs. Only beaten out, imo, by two other tracks in the game...too bad those tracks don't play until near end-game, so we won't be hearing them in the LP for quite some time.
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May 29, 2017 20:22
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I couldn't wait for the next update to see how this concluded. 
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May 29, 2017 20:40
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While the pillars at the front entrance are legs, there are two protrusions in the ceiling that are probably meant to be breasts. So the whole throne room is literally a woman bending over Kamoshida. That plus the Lustful Slurp show that someone in Atlus was really dedicated to show Kamoshida's sleaziness.
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May 29, 2017 20:44
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I highly, highly recommend listening to Life Will Change.
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May 29, 2017 20:56
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Life Will Change is unironically my favorite song in the entire game, and it sounds even better without the lyrics it gets later on.
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May 29, 2017 20:59
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