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SloppyDoughnuts
Apr 9, 2010

I set fire to the rain watched it pour as I touched your face

Kemix posted:

And here we have, Ladies and gents, the "classic" Mara build that is all for show and not at all worth your time to build because of the fusion chains needed for such a thing. In other news, Succubus is a Moon arcana persona, not Devil. Why? No loving clue but that's how it is.

Moon is lies, Devil is temptation. Succubi have sex with people while they sleep, pretending to be dreams.

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girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

McFetusBurger posted:

Torrent shot
:filez:

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013
Almost any other game series would shy away from the fact that a lot of mythological creatures from several cultures are really, really phallic. SMT puts a giant penis on a golden chariot.

DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

With our special guest star, RUSH! YAYYYYYYYYY

GuyUpNorth posted:

Mara's a classic :colbert:Then we have at least Angel, dating back to Nocturne IIRC.
Angel has looked like that since the first Devil Summoner, I think. I thought they started using the design in SMT2 because I believe the PlayStation port had a bunch of Angels on the box art, but apparently that wasn't the case in the game itself.

Also, I often see people say that despite appearances, Mara is supposed to be female. I'm not exactly an expert on the topic of dick monsters but I'm guessing those folks are getting their Maras confused, as there are several goddesses with that name in various mythologies. The Mara who tried to tempt Buddha during his meditation (and the one that's in the SMT games) is usually depicted as a male demon. (edit: apparently some of the games such as Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon refer to Mara as a goddess, so I guess that's where it comes from)

DMorbid fucked around with this message at 01:57 on May 31, 2017

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013

Montegoraon posted:

Almost any other game series would shy away from the fact that a lot of mythological creatures from several cultures are really, really phallic. SMT puts a giant penis on a golden chariot.
And then there was that one time Persona 1 made Mara into a chestburster monster.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
I can't imagine it's healthy to have a giant tentacle penis erupt from your chest.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Um, guys? In the concept art for Asmodeus, the trophy (which was already filled with female legs) was seeping a white liquid. Yeah, no.

C. Everett Koop
Aug 18, 2008

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

I can't imagine it's healthy to have a giant tentacle penis erupt from your chest.

Even worse when it whips out a top hat and cane.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Ready to Poyozo Dance all over your face.

C. Everett Koop posted:

Even worse when it whips out a top hat and cane.

Check please! :v:

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


I made a few minor alterations to the latest update based on poo poo people pointed out in this thread. It's stuff I mostly already knew but neglected to mention for some dumb reason. It's not really worth going back to check, but I thank those people anyway.

Haifisch
Nov 13, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Do the Palace bosses ever get their demon names(like Asmodeus) stated in-game? I never could figure out if people just thought it was cooler to say "Asmodeus" instead of "Shadow Kamoshida" or if there was a canon basis for it I managed to miss.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


I just used it because it's shorter and snappier, but it's part of their name when you select them during the fight (like "Suguru Asmodeus Kamoshida" here).

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.
When they talk in cutscenes they're just "Shadow Kamoshida", but their name as a enemy unit includes the demon as a middle name of sorts. Suguru Asmodeus Kamoshida.

Haifisch
Nov 13, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Huh. I have no idea how I managed to miss that. :psyduck:

Then again, there's not much reason to assume the enemy name would be anything weird, and there's no reason to look at the analysis screen for bosses...

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013

Doc Morbid posted:

Also, I often see people say that despite appearances, Mara is supposed to be female. I'm not exactly an expert on the topic of dick monsters but I'm guessing those folks are getting their Maras confused, as there are several goddesses with that name in various mythologies. The Mara who tried to tempt Buddha during his meditation (and the one that's in the SMT games) is usually depicted as a male demon. (edit: apparently some of the games such as Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon refer to Mara as a goddess, so I guess that's where it comes from)

Mara is Mara. Originally he, or it, wasn't depicted as phallic at all. But mara is Japanese slang for penis, so there you have it. The design is supposed to represent Mara's domain, obstacles to enlightenment. Specifically, sex, war, and greed.

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

Haifisch posted:

Huh. I have no idea how I managed to miss that. :psyduck:

Then again, there's not much reason to assume the enemy name would be anything weird, and there's no reason to look at the analysis screen for bosses...

It's not just on their Analysis screen, the demon name shows up when you target them in the battle animation. I only noticed it when one of the later bosses' name seemed too long on the battle screen, and then I went back and checked, and then I noticed all of them had it.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost

Doc Morbid posted:

Angel has looked like that since the first Devil Summoner, I think. I thought they started using the design in SMT2 because I believe the PlayStation port had a bunch of Angels on the box art, but apparently that wasn't the case in the game itself.

Also, I often see people say that despite appearances, Mara is supposed to be female. I'm not exactly an expert on the topic of dick monsters but I'm guessing those folks are getting their Maras confused, as there are several goddesses with that name in various mythologies. The Mara who tried to tempt Buddha during his meditation (and the one that's in the SMT games) is usually depicted as a male demon. (edit: apparently some of the games such as Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon refer to Mara as a goddess, so I guess that's where it comes from)

There's also a (Chaos only) sidequest in Strange Journey where you're advised to seek the aid of a "beautiful goddess." You go into the depths of the sector looking for her, reach the door, step through, and GWAHAHAHAHA it's Mara. In the ensuing conversation Mara mentions that it was a goddess at one time. Evidently not any longer, though.

DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

With our special guest star, RUSH! YAYYYYYYYYY

Seyser Koze posted:

There's also a (Chaos only) sidequest in Strange Journey where you're advised to seek the aid of a "beautiful goddess." You go into the depths of the sector looking for her, reach the door, step through, and GWAHAHAHAHA it's Mara. In the ensuing conversation Mara mentions that it was a goddess at one time. Evidently not any longer, though.
Yeah, they seem to have taken some slight liberties with the mythology and combined unrelated goddesses and demons to get their dick jokes in, because Mara's compendium entry in Strange Journey describes "A Hindu demon that represents a fear of death, she tempted the Buddha during his meditations."

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
I bought a PS4 and P5 because of this LP. Thanks for that.

Kemix
Dec 1, 2013

Because change

DreamingofRoses posted:

I bought a PS4 and P5 because of this LP. Thanks for that.

It's definitely worth it. Specially when you really get into the meat of the game, not to mention there's definitely a lotta good games on the PS4 that are out and coming out later on. Plus if ya got a PSVita, you can play on that if someone wants the TV through good old remote play! Though the framerate DOES take a bit of a hit I hear.

Kemix fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jun 1, 2017

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Part 17: 4/22-4/23: Blacker Than A Moonless Night

Now that we’ve handled that ordeal, we just have to escape the castle.

Music: Desire





Kamoshida does a sick diving somersault to grab the crown.




What’s wrong? Not running away? Why don’t you run…? Aren’t you a great athlete?



I’m doing this all for them! What’s wrong about demanding a reward for that!?
Now you’re makin’ excuses…? We’ll do something about that distorted heart of yours.
Hrrgh…
Scared? Right now, you’re seeing the same view that Shiho did. I’m sure she was scared too… except she had no choice but to jump… What will you do? Will you jump? …Or would you rather die here?




Do you want to finish him off? It’s your call.



Music: Regret

Shut up. I bet everyone told you the same.








Go ahead and finish me off… You do that… and my real self will go down too… You have that right since you’ve won...






Ann…!




You’re kind, Lady Ann...
I’ve lost. You’re through when you lose…







Hey, just so you know, we don’t have time to waste. This place is about to collapse!

Castle Escape

Music: Collapse of Lust





This goddamn cat, I swear.

Run!






Despite the fact that we were in a tower, the exit to the Palace is now a massive hallway. That’s animated cutscenes for ya.



Morgana, back in cat form, jumps atop Ann’s head.



No fair, you jerk!





Suddenly, Ryuji starts limping.












...It’s true. We can’t go there anymore.
What about the Treasure!?

Well, we weren’t holding it during that cutscene, so...



What the…?
...A medal? Wait, where’d that crown go?
What’s goin’ on…?
It means, that was the source of Kamoshida’s desires. To him, this medal is worth as much as that crown we saw in the palace.



So, that perv kept clingin’ to his past glory and couldn’t let it go...
But… this means that Kamoshida’s heart might have changed, right?
...Probably.
Our expulsion’s on the line here!
This is the first successful example for me too. However, there’s no doubt that this has affected Kamoshida’s personality quite a lot. The entire Palace disappeared, after all.
Ugh, I feel all antsy! Ain’t there a way to check now?



Right...
Come on, why the gloomy faces? Be happy! We completed this with great success, you know.
We just don’t know if everything’s OK yet...

Music: Break it Down (Elp Version)

I’m pretty sure it’ll be fine. Remember how Kamoshida’s Shadow said that he’s returning to his self in reality?



I promise you that line sounds exactly as awkward when voiced as you’d think.

Still… He did seem to regain his conscience somewhat at the end.



There are definitely those who have been saved thanks to what you’ve done.
Yeah…
Anyways, I guess we gotta wait. It all boils down to what’s gonna happen to Kamoshida… or if we’re gettin’ expelled for real...



...Yeah, let’s go.

Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)




You think? I’m glad to hear that… Anyway, that cognitive world was pretty crazy, huh? What a mysterious place. I can’t believe we actually stole someone’s heart… Speaking of mysterious, there’s also the matter of Morgana’s transformation. When we were escaping, didn’t he turn back into a cat even though we were still in the Palace?



Basically, the Treasure changes the shape of things. Once that’s gone, the power no longer works. Though the real reason I changed quickly back then was because I’m so incredibly skilled! How’s that? Isn’t that amazing!?



Oh yeah, I forgot Morgana is reading these messages too. I think I feel a little better after talking with you. Thanks. We still haven’t seen any results, but it feels like a weight’s been lifted off my shoulders. I hope you don’t mind talking to me too much. Well, see you tomorrow.



Nothing goes your way in life. Let it get to your head, and you’ll get the rug pulled from under you.

Geez, Sojiro, way to take a poo poo right in my lap. This dialogue plays after clearing a Palace. There’s an additional bit of dialogue that you get the night before, but I forgot to include it last time.



It’s called a bank transfer scam, and they’ve been happening much more frequently in the city. Many young people have been victimized, and the police are being told to stay on the alert.
The victims are mostly young people? Oh, you’d better be careful, too.



Yeah, sure thing, cat.



It’s such a pain to put on makeup, and I hate shopping, so I usually end up just lazing about the house.
Same here. Good thing there’s home shopping. They always have the best stuff on Sundays.
Oh, I know exactly what you’re talking about! They even sell surgical masks for when you’re sick.
I’ll have to check it out tomorrow. It’s so popular they always sell out if you don’t call the same day.



I slept in, so I ran out without eating breakfast… I feel so weak because of it… After we took down Kamoshida, I just feel so spent and out of gas, you know? You get me, right?



Right? Now all we have left to do is wait for that board meeting… Anyways, I’m hungry. I guess I’ll buy some bread at the school store...

Music: So Boring



You kids are lucky to receive direct instruction from a world-famous athlete like him. Sports have been regarded as sacred things that invigorate people since ancient times. So much so that the emperor himself even participated once.




It’s Nero. *sigh* It’s good to throw yourself into your club activities, but you shouldn’t sacrifice your studies.
….. Sorry...




What event did Emperor Nero add to the Olympics so that he could participate?



Nero’s the crazy one, right? Or was that Caligula? Singing seems like a pretty batshit answer either way.

Correct. Hm. It seems you’ve been studying after all. Apparently Nero was tone deaf, but he ended up winning. The emperor held absolute power, after all. Because of these kinds of selfish actions—not to mention a lecherous side—he became known as a despot.
Whoa, he actually knew that?
Maybe I should ask if I can borrow his notes...
Wow, you must be really smart to be able to answer a question like that!

Maaku gains Knowledge +1.

That said, recently people have begun reevaluating Nero’s reign. Regardless though, he was lacking in sportsmanship. He should have taken a page out of Kamoshida-kun’s book! Hahaha!
Don’t give us that crap. Kamoshida’s the real despot.

Music: Disquiet



*shakes head*
You really think he changed?



Well, yeah...




Mr. Kamoshida has taken the day off.
He ain’t here…?
Don’t tell anyone that you heard this from me… But we received word that Mr. Kamoshida is placing himself under suspension. It’s such an important time before the tournament too… Principal Kobayakawa went to talk to him about it, but he supposedly wasn’t making any sense...




The talks about your expulsions may be put on hold too… I don’t know too much about it though… Anyway, I’ve relayed what’s going on to you.



At least it sounds different from a mental shutdown… I guess all we can do is wait...

Well, that’s nerve-wracking. We have no idea when Kamoshida will come back or what his reaction will be when it does. Let’s hope for the best.

Music: Tokyo Emergency



Of course, waiting is pretty boring… I wonder what Ryuji and the rest are up to?

“The rest?” There’s only one other person you could possibly be referring to, Morgana.



We should go on a trip or something. Whaddya think?
Sorry, I’m gonna have to pass.
What, you busy?
Yeah, I’ll be visiting Shiho in the hospital after school for the next few days.



Yeah, thanks. I’m totally down to go somewhere once things calm down though.
It sounds like we won’t be able to see Lady Ann after school for a while. How unfortunate.

This cat is way too thirsty for this girl.




I hear Mr. Kamoshida’s taking a leave of absence. Maybe it’s because of that calling card. I’m sure this Phantom Thieves stunt is just a prank. Still, the newspaper club should follow this.



Wouldn’t it be amazing if they were real? As a member of the newspaper club, I’m going to see what I can dig up on them!




Oh, are you talking about those psychotic breakdowns? It’s nothing that crazy. Maybe I’m just tired.
Hey you might feel better if you eat something. Let’s stop by Big Bang on Central Street.

Just down the hallway...




*giggle* I’ll post online and everyone will know what me and Ikesugi-kun share… *giggle* I’ll tell them, “He seemed a bit tired… so I massaged his shoulders for him. ☆” *giggle*

Yikes. Well, none of our business.



This time, let’s try using the phone to make an appointment.



I’ll prolly end up going easy on myself if I do it alone… Anyways, it’d prolly be the most efficient if we trained together. How ‘bout it?



This message plays if you have a Persona in your current arsenal that matches the Arcana of the Confidant you’re about to hang out with. It gives you bonus points, and it’s really annoying because you always want to have a matching Persona so it forces you to structure your Personas around it or just constantly resummon. It’s actually much less of an issue in P5 than in previous games just due to how many of the Confidants in this game are gated entirely by the story.

I feel like my bond with Ryuji will grow stronger soon...





I was trainin’ for nationals back in the day… but now I totally suck balls.




Music: Suspicion

...Running, huh? I saw you from the window.
What, you gonna try to come crawling back to the track team?
Huh? H-Hell no...
Sure… Speaking of which, this was your secret training spot, wasn’t it? Well, it’s our spot now. You know, us. The former track team.
We don’t even have a locker room anymore, thanks to someone I know.
…..




Yeah, this isn’t anything like a fight. Not even close. Hold on, aren’t you that transfer student? You’re really gonna hang around with this loser?
You better watch out. He’ll hit you the second he gets pissed off. I heard his dad was the same way. Like father like son, right? Now that’s some scary poo poo.





…..
Look, back then, I...
I don’t need to hear your excuses. Everyone was going through the same bullshit with Kamoshida. The beatings, the impossible exercises… but we put up with all of it for the track team.



Man, I was stupid for ever thinking you were my teammate.




Music: Alright (Elp Version)

I haven’t changed at all… But y’know… you actually helped me calm down a little. I’m glad you were here with me. Thanks man!



Time for another Weird High-Five.

I feel like my bond with Ryuji is growing deeper...



Ryuji can now follow up an attack by Maaku that doesn’t down the target randomly. These don’t come into play that often but they’re still handy.

...Let’s call it a day.



What?
The hell’s your problem!?
Now they’re just arguing with each other… …I should stay out of it. Anyways, nice trainin’ with you.

Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)



And I told her we settled things with Kamoshida. She still hasn’t regained consciousness… but I had to go make amends.



But I wasn’t there when she needed help. I’m a failure as a friend… I have to do all I can to make up for that, starting now. Otherwise I don’t think I’ll be able to move on.
Man, I didn’t know you were so passionate. I totally didn’t notice that back in middle school.
I think it’s because of you guys. I’m a little embarrassed though… Anyway, Ryuji, Maaku… I hope we can keep helping each other out from now on too.



Somethin’ I wanna ask you. C’mere, let’s have a chat.

Oh gently caress Sojiro knows I’m a Phantom Thief my life is over oh gently caress



Care to have a little chat with me? What, it’s just some small talk.



Good. There’re a lot of things I want to ask you. I’ll clean up, so just wait there.

Okay, we’ve been through this ringer before. Just stick your face in the TV, Dojima’ll have to believe it.

Music: Alleycat



Okay, stay calm, that could mean anything.

You’re not causing any trouble, are you?

Maaku starts sweating profusely.



Good.

Seems like we’re safe, but I’m not convinced he’s not going to Columbo us here.

I’ve gotta report to your probation officer twice a month. It’s already a pain in the rear end as is, so please don’t make me have to write even more crap.



You can go and get yourself killed if you want, but don’t go dragging other people into your mess. The last thing we need is more idiots like you roaming around.

Harsh, man.




Yeah, I’m heading out now. Sorry about that. ...I know. The usual, right? OK. I’ll see you later.



If you could lend a hand, it’d really be a great help...



Sure thing, Fake Da-I mean, sir.

Now, we’re talking. Either way, I won’t ask you to work for free. If you agree to help me, then… I’ll teach you how to make the perfect cup of coffee. Not a bad trade, eh?



All right. Looks like we’ve got ourselves a deal.
The distance between me and Sojiro seems to be closing slightly...

Music: Interrogation Room




You may call yourself a phantom thief, but you’re still a minor. Someone had to support you. Furthermore, they did so knowing you were a part of that group… ...Isn’t the owner of that cafe an accomplice of yours!?

“And where did you learn to brew such delicious coffee, you hooligan?”

Music: The Spirit



The Hierophant, also known as The Pope, is associated with religion, conformity, and tradition, but also restriction and challenging those very norms that confine you.



No Confidant bonus for Sojiro just yet.



“There’s just one more thing.”

See ya later.

Sojiro is one of my favorite characters in this game, and he’s voiced by Jamieson Price giving what might also be my favorite performance. He’s just fantastic all around.

Arist fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Apr 26, 2018

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.
Sojiro is fantastic. Morgana is awful. Shiho is a prop and it's kind of skeevy.

Story of the game, right there.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Sojiro seems pretty great.

ChaosArgate
Oct 10, 2012

Why does everyone think I'm going to get in trouble?

Your music link for The Spirit is broken.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?
Sojirou's pretty great, yeah, and I'm glad to see more turning around on him. His Social Link is quite good and possibly my favorite (I might have to think about that, though, because there are some really, really good ones in this game).

As for Morgana... I generally like him and where his character goes, but I don't blame anyone for being put off by him at this time, because his "thing" for Ann is honestly kinda creepy and... stays that way, although it becomes much easier to ignore later.

Ayana
Jun 29, 2010

Hee-Ho!
Sojiro is Best Dad, hands down. Dojima kind of half-assed the Dad thing, but man Sojiro is nothing but cool.

Also his voice is perfect. "Let me explain." :allears:

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

GeneX posted:

Sojiro is fantastic. Morgana is awful. Shiho is a prop and it's kind of skeevy.

Story of the game, right there.

What makes you view Shiho in terms of how the game handles her skeevy?

Rainuwastaken
Oct 30, 2012

Another blue ribbon for Hecarim.
Man, I never noticed the "Kamoshida is a scum" line being so screwed up when I played. I noticed the odd clunky line here and there, but overall I thought the translation job was pretty solid. Hoo boy do people like to complain about it though.

Coffee Dad is a wonderful character, and Jamieson Price absolutely nails it here.

GeneX posted:

Morgana is awful.

I get why people hate on Morgana, but I find myself really liking him. While the Ann-worship schtick definitely sucks, I think it's a bit unfair to blame him for being the designated "go to sleep already jeez" character. He's definitely not perfect but I enjoy having my cat friend travel around in my backpack. :shrug:

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

Hunt11 posted:

What makes you view Shiho in terms of how the game handles her skeevy?

Don't want to get into spoilers, but her role in the story thus far is as a prop for Ann (or the narrative) to drag out whenver the game thinks things are too lighthearted or positive, instead of her being an actual character.

It comes off as using a suicide attempt as a cheap prop, made worse because it's entirely unnecessary for the story. Ann's motivation should probably have been to stop the rear end in a top hat teacher from coercing her into sex; the revenge plot adds nothing.

E: Morgana's incredibly narcissistic attitude and general creepiness toward Ann are enough by themselves to make him obnoxious in my view, but this is not a debate that anyone can win. I don't particularly care that he's the mouthpiece that the game uses to enforce its mechanics.

Jen X fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 1, 2017

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

GeneX posted:

Don't want to get into spoilers, but her role in the story thus far is as a prop for Ann (or the narrative) to drag out whenver the game thinks things are too lighthearted or positive, instead of her being an actual character.

It comes off as using a suicide attempt as a cheap prop, made worse because it's entirely unnecessary for the story. Ann's motivation should probably have been to stop the rear end in a top hat teacher from coercing her into sex; the revenge plot adds nothing.

I personally disagree with you. The suicide attempt is the catalyst for everything as without it the phantom thieves would not have challenged Kamoshida like they did.

Spyros
Apr 28, 2013
So you have to wait until the last possible moment before the change of heart happens? I get why the event would happen at a fixed date from a mechanical standpoint, but from a story perspective, that means that a change of heart can take a long-rear end time or just one day, depending on when you clear the Palace. It also feels a little anticlimactic just sitting around and waiting for a resolution that is already guaranteed (to the player, at least)

Since I was already suspicious of Morgana from last time, I can't help but wonder if it's important that he was suddenly grooming himself right after an emotional scene and while the Palace was falling apart, or that he turned back to a regular cat before they returned to the real world. He offered some sort of explanation, but shouldn't the others' clothes have reverted too after the Treasure was stolen? I guess we won't get any answers for a while, though.

I don't personally get the hate stemming from his "go to sleep" role. It's more justified and organic compared to a faceless narrator browbeating me into sleeping. Maybe it's harder to actively hate an intangible entity that you otherwise don't interact with as a character.

Sojiro seems pretty cool. I look forward to him warming up to Maaku. Maybe he'll run into some relationship trouble with the lady that presumably called him on the phone and Maaku, with his Prortagonist-level dating skills, will steer him straight.

I look forward to a certain catchy jingle next time!

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

Hunt11 posted:

I personally disagree with you. The suicide attempt is the catalyst for everything as without it the phantom thieves would not have challenged Kamoshida like they did.

And the game could quite easily have done that without turning a suicide attempt into a plot point. Maybe Ryuji and the Protagonist get incensed on behalf of the team members he's physically abusing and he retaliates by trying to expel them. Maybe they get mad on Ann's behalf.

The point is that the game tries to be dark but instead uses topics that should be handled delicately as blunt plot sledgehammers. This is a recurring theme.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!

GeneX posted:

And the game could quite easily have done that without turning a suicide attempt into a plot point. Maybe Ryuji and the Protagonist get incensed on behalf of the team members he's physically abusing and he retaliates by trying to expel them. Maybe they get mad on Ann's behalf.

The point is that the game tries to be dark but instead uses topics that should be handled delicately as blunt plot sledgehammers. This is a recurring theme.

Thisgamehasagoodplotthisgamehasagoodplotthisgamehasagoodplotthisgamehasagoodplot

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

GeneX posted:

And the game could quite easily have done that without turning a suicide attempt into a plot point. Maybe Ryuji and the Protagonist get incensed on behalf of the team members he's physically abusing and he retaliates by trying to expel them. Maybe they get mad on Ann's behalf.

The point is that the game tries to be dark but imstead uses topics that should be handled delicately as blunt plot sledgehammers. This is a recurring theme.

What are you talking about? Talking as someone with personal experience with that type of poo poo I think the game did a decent job of handling it. From a story perspective though something horrifyingly dramatic had to happen to get the game moving. Ryuji as a decent human being felt worried about a plan that could mentally lobotomize someone and Ann had managed to just about figure a way to not give up too much to Kamoshida. Both of those are horrible situations but the characters had figured out how to not completely break from everything. Kamoshida would need to commit some new atrocity to force the characters into action and abusing Shiho to the point of attempting suicide is horrible, the only other ways he could make such a reckless plan seem justified would have been even wrose.

GOI
Aug 26, 2015

GeneX posted:

And the game could quite easily have done that without turning a suicide attempt into a plot point. Maybe Ryuji and the Protagonist get incensed on behalf of the team members he's physically abusing and he retaliates by trying to expel them. Maybe they get mad on Ann's behalf.

The point is that the game tries to be dark but instead uses topics that should be handled delicately as blunt plot sledgehammers. This is a recurring theme.

So risk killing someone cause he is grade A jerk or because he actually came close to killing someone

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.
I feel like actually saying more on why I think the way I do about this would involve spoilers, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea that "something horrifyingly dramatic" had to happen for the plot to take the course they wanted.

If you want to take this to PMs, we can do that.

Jen X fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 1, 2017

Rangpur
Dec 31, 2008

I find it hard to be too down on Morgana over his crush on Ann. I mean... he's a cat. The possibility of a relationship is nonexistent, and he talks about taking long walks on the beach and romantic dinners instead of how much he'd like to hit that, you know? I'll admit I'm a soft touch when it comes to animals but it's hard for me to read it as creepy.

Shiho is a missed opportunity though. I like to think that if they made a female-MC route for the game she would have been a Confidant instead of a footnote.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Here''s the rub: even absent any discussion on whether or not the game handles these topics well (which I'll get back to) arguing that the game can't use them to further its plot is dumb, especially because it's trying to illustrate consequences of abuses of power, a direct theme of the entire game. It's not a throwaway plot point. In fact, I'd say that without someone put at risk as a direct consequence of Kamoshida's actions, the game would lack a sense of urgency when it's most needed, to compel the player into starting the path they eventually follow.

Simultaneously, Shiho's situation is weakened and her character made to feel more like a plot device by the fact that (Not really a spoiler but I'll be safe) she disappears from the story pretty much entirely after attempting suicide. Both of these things can be true.

Rainuwastaken
Oct 30, 2012

Another blue ribbon for Hecarim.

Rangpur posted:

I find it hard to be too down on Morgana over his crush on Ann. I mean... he's a cat. The possibility of a relationship is nonexistent, and he talks about taking long walks on the beach and romantic dinners instead of how much he'd like to hit that, you know? I'll admit I'm a soft touch when it comes to animals but it's hard for me to read it as creepy.

He sounds like a little kid with a crush on his friend's big sister to me, which I just think is kinda cute. He lays it on a bit thick, but I don't think he comes off as creepy so much as just completely clueless about this sort of thing. And yes, it does help that he's an adorable little monster cat mascot guy.

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Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!

Arist posted:

Nothing goes your way in life. Let it get to your head, and you’ll get the rug pulled from under you.

Geez, Sojiro, way to take a poo poo right in my lap.

Well, given that Maaku apparently gets arrested in the upcoming future, he's not wrong. :v:

Speaking of which, I should go back and read the opening update now that I can put a face to some party members.

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