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DeafNote posted:all this talk does make me wonder if there could be a person so depraved, not even a change of heart would entirely redeem his personality great another Persona game with Hitler as a boss
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Aug 27, 2017 00:29
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DeafNote posted:all this talk does make me wonder if there could be a person so depraved, not even a change of heart would entirely redeem his personality This is just speculation, but a psychopath would probably be that, if they were even capable of having a shadow at all.
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Aug 27, 2017 01:20
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Montegoraon posted:This is just speculation, but a psychopath would probably be that, if they were even capable of having a shadow at all. Either that, or the Phantom Thieves can cure even permanent mental health conditions. Either one is plausible, but I doubt we'll see the game explore that far.
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Aug 27, 2017 11:52
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Mental health conditions don't seem much different from shadows and personas actually. For starters, back with Kamoshida Mona did tell us messing around in a person's mental world / messing with their shadow can trigger a mental breakdown. So we can cause illnesses... but of course this doesn't mean we can cure them. But well, it might be possible since it is your mind and inner self.
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Aug 27, 2017 12:02
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When you're so broken or so deep into your own mind that who you are can change? It's some scary poo poo. Almost anything can happen to a person's personality at that point, but it's usually negative because getting to that point is typically due to a emotional breakdown. Though I have heard of therapy that's gotten people to reach that far and change their habits and ways of thinking in a rather drastic way. Course, that's all difficult as poo poo to document, with each person being different and the methods of getting there varying drastically.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:10
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Part 47: 6/11: Sojiro's Attic Full Of Teenagers Anon: better be arrested soon Anon: don’t even bother with this Anon: this is so immature. Anon: this has to be fake, lol Mishima changed the question, leading to new replies. Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)   Ah, on that talk show? It was simply dreadful.When this line hits, there’s a generic voice line of a woman saying “THE PHANTOM THIEVES ARE SUPER LAME,” and it’s one of the goofiest things in the entire game. It’s great. How can anyone seriously suggest supernatural beings are stealing people’s hearts? That… child is a phony. There’s simply no way that the Phantom Thieves exist. Unfortunately, my precious children all think they’re real—and worse, that this detective is amazing… Children are far too impressionable to see such vulgar content on TV. Looks like people still don’t think we’re real...  I can’t believe a high schooler moonlights as a detective. He’s just like the Detective Prince.That makes two references to Naoto. He’s smart AND handsome. He’s almost TOO perfect! We had front row seats. I could practically reach out and touch Akechi-kun! I was so nervous! He was really working that uniform, and without seeming like a snob. He’s a natural at public speaking. I hear he’s an orphan who grew up poor. It’s part of what makes him so amazing! He wants his last high school memory to be capturing the Phantom Thieves. This isn’t a game to him! See, I hear his dad’s the head of some big financial conglomerate. I will say, I love that he hates the media. Makes me believe that he doesn’t do this for the fame. That’s… uncomfortable! People say he’s so good that he’s made enemies in the police force… Oh, yeah—apparently yesterday’s interview was so popular they’re going to air it again tonight.Music: So Boring   Why someone would steal something like a heart, which can’t be turned into money, is beyond be.BEEP BOOP WHAT ARE EMOTIONS If I were a phantom thief, I wouldn’t go after “hearts” or works of art—I’d go after gold. Now then, Hamiru-san. Can you imagine how much gold has been excavated by humanity over the course of history? Correct. Surprisingly little, don’t you think? That rarity is what drives its value.Maaku gains Knowledge +1. Incidentally, they say that 16% of the world’s gold is in Japan. Was your first thought the Tokugawa Clan’s buried gold? It’s actually in discarded home electronics. In other words, a junkyard is much more valuable than someone else’s heart. Hmph! You can’t measure the value of a Treasure with money!Music: Wicked Plan   Let’s see him do it, then!  Ann chops Ryuji in the back of the head.  (while eating) You’re being way too loud. Who cares? Everybody’s talkin’ about this stuff anyways. It’d just be more suspicious if we were whisperin’. Gimme some! Sorry, just ate the last one. You guys are too laid back. The police are getting involved now, you know. So you think it’s true…? We’ll be OK if we keep doing this… right? We can’t let the cops scare us outta bein’ phantom thieves. But… what about that weird guy from Madarame’s Palace…? Isn’t there a lot we don’t know? Music: Disquiet  Uhhh, hope she didn’t hear any of that conversation  You three seem to be having so much fun. I’m a little jealous. Are you snoopin’ on us again? We said before, we don’t know nothin’. Why do you think I’m here to question you? Could it be that you’re hiding something? My ears are always open to the troubles of my peers, you know. You’re really that hungry for a good letter of recommendation? ...Of course you are. Nobody would take on your annoying job if they weren’t. ...You’re student council president, right? Wouldn’t you have known about Kamoshida? Of course not! He honestly was a good teacher until that day… Oh, but you always take the teacher’s side. That’s what a good council president does, right? Then… how about you? What did you do for your friend? There wasn’t any way to help! By myself… I couldn’t do anything for her! There’s no need to shout. If those Phantom Thieves are out there helpin’ people… I’d root for ‘em, no questions asked. They’ve gotta be more dependable than some people I know. ...Just make sure you show up to your classes, all right? I’d be ashamed to let it end now... Hell yeah. It’s about time we find our next target too. Music: Wicked Plan   “A criminal group with unknown goals that does whatever it wants in the name of justice.” Huh… It’s prolly ‘cause of Akechi… TV’s got some crazy sway. He’s free to deny our actions, but being cursed by his influence is another thing entirely. Just when we were starting to get people to believe in us too… All we gotta do is take down another hot shot, yeah? Well, do you have any ideas who this next “hot shot” could be? I ain’t got a thing yet… Dammit, this is real irritatin’… By the way, what’s up with that luggage?Music: My Homie  They were not only filthy, but too noisy as well… No true art could come from such a place. What’re you gonna so then? You can’t go back to that shack, right? I was planning on staying at Takamaki-san’s— I mean, Ann’s house. WHAT!? There’s no way that’s gonna happen! Impossible... You’re the impossible one! But I spent everything I had on these delectable Japanese sweets... That’s not the issue here! Seriously though… what’re we gonna do about him? It’s way too small. Plus, my folks’d never agree to it.Oops, looks like the writers forgot Ryuji’s mom is single! Well, seeing as Yusuke is an important member of our team… I’ll lend a hand! Come stay at our place! It’s dirty, but at least you’ll have somewhere to sleep! WHAT Why’re you the one calling the shots? Don’t you two live in a cafe? I’ve been wondering about that for a while. Yongen’s not too far, is it? Nope! And the cafe’s only a minute walk from the station. How about we go there now? We can have a party to celebrate Madarame’s change of heart! Ooh, good idea! We can make it a welcome party for Yusuke too! All right, it’s decided! Sorry to cause you trouble. By the way… I prefer sleeping on a futon. It’ll be up to you to convince the chief. Maaku shakes the bag. Morgana yelps. Music: Break it Down  This place looks so outdated… I can’t say I hate it though. People refer to that as “retro.” Hello! A girl too…? Maaku has really helped us a lot lately. Heh, I bet you’re the ones doing all the helping. No, really, he’s been great. Huh… Sit down. This round’ll be on the house. (to Maaku) You’re helping though. Indeed, there’s great depth to its acidity. Oh yeah, I remember now! I think I’ve seen Leblanc mentioned in a magazine before... That was a long time ago. For real? Gimme a taste. Blech! Ryuji chugs his soda. It’s so bitter! This has gotta be cruel and unusual punishment! Eh, I didn’t drink coffee when I was a kid either. (To Maaku) These’re your friends, yeah? Go on and take them up to your room. No need to stay down here. Ooh! I wanna see! It’s only an attic. Man, that bitter taste just won’t leave my mouth… Thank you very much for the drink. Up these stairs? ...Oh, and thanks for the soda! So, you’re uhh... Ann. Ann Takamaki. Ann-chan, huh… That’s a nice name. You got a boyfriend?Oh god. Nope. Never have, either. Hey, you gotta get up here! This place’s freakin’ insane! Go on. Oh, right. Thank you for the coffee! Sheesh. They had to leave the Mona bag down here?Ann grabs the bags and walks upstairs. Huh, sweet girl. Yeah, I agree, that Rise poster is pretty incredible. It seems quite ordinary to me. For real…? See? Ain’t this crazy? It’s cleaner than I thought it would be. What!? Well, sit wherever you’d like.Music: Wicked Plan  Even those who previously believed in us have been influenced by the comments made on TV. This is all that effin’ Akechi’s fault! Keep it down. We don’t want anyone hearing us. At this rate we’re just going to worry everyone instead of give them courage… We need to find a way to make our rightfulness known to society. It’s time we think about our next move. You were planning on discussing that today, right? Yes. First, we need to search for a candidate. It’s not like we’re just gonna stumble upon some important target though. You guys don’t know anyone, do you? I don’t... Me neither... Whaddya think, leader? Well… there probably are a lot of famous targets on TV… However, the suspects on the news are already being pursued by the police. Even if we make them confess their crimes, the police will take the credit. That won’t do. Dammit… We’re never gonna prove Akechi wrong at this rate…! What the... Sorry… I haven’t eaten anything since yesterday… And you spent all your money on that box of sweets!? Dude, how much did you have…? Anyway, we’ll just have to sit tight until we can find another target. So…Music: New Beginning How about that welcome party? Someone’s excited. Can’t we make hot pot on it? That sounds great! I’ve heard that eating hot pot together brings people closer!No, that’s paopu fruit. Anything with meat’s fine by me! I only ask that we finish it off with porridge. Extra parsley, of course. So, what do you say? Whattt!? Whattt, my rear end! You don’t have any cash! C’mon, let’s go buy ingredients. I’ll need gingko nuts, wonton wrappers, and... (to Maaku) We’ll take care of the shopping. Could you borrow a pot from downstairs while we’re out? We can split the cost later. We should go grab that pot and set up the portable stove too. But let’s forget about him for now and just focus on having fun. Come on, we need to prepare. Oh and by the way… who’s going to be seasoning the hot pot?  As you should be. Food always tastes better with friends. Her name was Ann, right? She’s a nice girl. Oh, I just had a chat with her. She said your friend doesn’t have anywhere to go. Asked if I could take him in for a bit. I guess she thought it’d be too pitiful for you to ask, since you’re already freeloading. Anyway, I should have a big pot somewhere around here.   It’s almost time for the others to get back from their shopping trip, so I’ll leave you be. I’ll be down here for a while though… Just be careful with the fire, OK?Music: Days of Sisters   (TV) After his last appearance was so well-received, we decided to bring back this fine gentleman today. It’s the high school detective, Goro Akechi! This tastes a bit bland… But I’m relieved. A lot’s happened, but it seems your grades haven’t dropped. School’s been going fine. I’m more worried about you, Sis. Are you tired? You’re probably lacking sodium. Do I seem so? (TV) But hypothetically speaking, if these Phantom Thieves are real… I believe they should be tried in a court of law. (TV) That’s quite the statement. Are they committing crimes? Some people even say that the Thieves are actually helping their victims abandon their evil ways. (TV) What the artist Madarame did truly was an unforgivable crime. However, they are taking the law into their own hands by judging him. It is far from justice. More importantly, you should never forcefully change a person’s heart. ...Is it a crime to manipulate someone’s heart? ...Depending on the means, yes. He’s absolutely right. Even if it makes someone admit their evil deeds and helps make them pay for their crimes? Why the sudden interest? It’s nothing... Do you believe that these “allies of justice” exist? ...Of course not. You don’t need to think about such unnecessary things. ...You understand what I’m trying to say, right? Study hard and go to a prestigious college... Moving up in the world is difficult as a woman. Yet, you can’t do much if you don’t have the authority. I’ll use every method necessary to make it happen. All you need to do is remain focused on what must be done now for your future’s sake. ...Sorry.  ...Oh, that case. What must be done… Justice... What do I want to do…?Music: Break it Down  That was delicious, Lady Ann. I’m sure you’ll make a wonderful bride some--Well, at least there’s no more Persona 4 jokes about the ladies hilaaaaaaaariously sucking at cooking. *yawn* Sorry, I’m gonna have to borrow the sofa. Ryuji and Morgana try to… ugh.   Ann notices and waves them off. What’s wrong, Yusuke? We haven’t finished our meal. What about the porridge, or even udon…? Just leave it for next time, man... *snoring* She’s asleep already…!? It’d be weird if she wasn’t tired. We should let her sleep. By the way, Ryuji… how do you know Ann? Huh? Oh, we went to middle school together. What was Lady Ann like back then? Not so different from now. Once we got to high school, we ended up in different classes and stopped talkin’… I don’t think she had many friends. I mean, she grew up overseas, plus there’s her looks. The popular kids hate her; the quiet ones stay away. I see… So, what about you two? Us…? This is a great opportunity to get to know each other better. You know every detail of my past at this point. It’s only fair you tell me every detail of yours. So you got nothin’ to lose, huh? All right, I’ll tell you. It’s just a normal story about a rotten kid though.Music: Alleycat  I was actually tryin’ to get a track scholarship so I could make things easier for her. In the end, I just screwed it all up. Turns out I’m a pretty bad son, huh? *sad chuckling* Back when I was a first-year, my mom got called out to school for me raisin’ my hand at Kamoshida. All the teachers kept houndin’ her for what I did, but she just stayed quiet through it all… I’ll never forget the look she had on her face though… On the way home, she… she apologized to me. For bein’ a single mom and all… So that’s what happened… They say at school that everyone is equal, but in reality that’s a gross oversimplification… ...I understand how you feel. Well when it comes to gettin’ labeled, nobody’s got it worse than Maaku. Is this about his past? Now that I think about it, we never have heard the details. They’re not even trying to hide who it is any more.  If you keep this up… Then I’ll report about the money! Is that fine with you!? All I have to say is that you did it on your own, and it’s over. But… I just did as I was told... Who do you think I am? No… Hey. Make this statement to the cops. “This kid suddenly attacked me.” Got it? Music: Desire If you even try to say anything else, you know what’ll happen to you, right? Huh? But-- Totally. Shut up. You’re done for. You’re gonna learn what happens when you cross me...  So, what happened? Explain it to the good officer. …… That young man suddenly attacked him… He shoved this gentleman to the ground. And this man… got injured…“I’m very conspicuously not mentioning his name… for dramatic purposes...”  ...It’s as she says. Also… make sure you deal with this so my name isn’t mentioned at all.The cops even have power over the flashbacks! Those fiends! You understand what that means, correct? Y-Yes, sir! Hey, cuff him! U-Understood. Music: Confession/Secret Goddammit…! You got an assault on your record just for that? The woman sounds quite horrible as well. She’s stayed quiet this whole time… That man is just the kind of person whose heart we should steal! Who is he, and where can we find him!? You can’t remember, huh…? Well it was at night, and I’m sure you were in shock after getting arrested. I understand all too well the pain of not being able to remember important details of your life. The victim’s personal information is always kept secret. Identifying that man will prove difficult… Besides, the courts already made their ruling, didn’t they? Even if we manage to get revenge, Maaku’s past record won’t go away. I can’t stand it… This world is so messed up! The weak’re left to fight for themselves, while rotten adults get away with whatever they want! And those in power don’t do anything to help the situation. Can’t we fix this though… Nobody would even know… We just need to show the world what true justice is. We’ll make them come to their senses. You’re right, Yusuke! That’s gotta be what our powers’re for! Sounds good to me. The flashier our missions are, the cooler we end up looking! You’ve all taught me so much. It’s really messed up that Ann apparently missed all of that. Oh, sorry… Did we wake you up? Nah, not really. I’ve been up for a while now. Still, this weird feeling came over me while I was listening to you guys… It almost feels like I’ve known you all forever…Can’t wait to find out we were all raised at the same orphanage and our Personas made us forget. Do you think it’s because our backgrounds are so similar? Well… it sure ain’t ‘cause of anything good. Similar, huh… I’m the only one who doesn’t fit in... Hm? I don’t have any past to look back on… No memories... Whaddya mean? We could search the whole world and we wouldn’t find a bigger misfit than you. And the reason we’re goin’ to Mementos is to get your memories back, right? I’m sure your past will be just as troubled as ours. No doubt. Hmph, we’ll see about that! I actually feel like I’ve known Morgana for a really long time too. It’s so strange… I can’t really put it into words. Look, I’m helping you guys out for my own sake. Don’t get me wrong! If you don’t get stronger, investigating Mementos won’t be anything but a pipe dream! That sure was a quick turnaround. One second you’re depressed, the next you’re actin’ all tough... All joking aside… let’s take this seriously. We should go as far with it as we can… I want to punish those corrupt adults and give courage to people in trouble… Only we can do that! Ha! You can say that again! Being a member of the Phantom Thieves will surely help me grow, both as an artist and as a person. Of course. You’re under my tutelage, after all. There’s nothing we can’t accomplish! Well… I hope we can keep this up. We should be all right with you as our leader. Music: Break it Down (Elp Version) ...Whoa, it’s this late? I guess now’s a good time to call it for the night! Oh, that reminds me! The owner said you’re free to crash here, Yusuke. That’s… very kind of him. You convinced him, didn’t you? You go, Miss Older-dude-charmer! What kind of nickname is that!? Hm, I won’t be able to sleep unless I take a bath… There’s a bathhouse nearby, so you can go there. I won’t be able to join you though. Ooh, that sounds great! I wanna come too! How ‘bout you, Ann? You guys go on ahead. I should get going. Well, good night, Morgana! I can’t let her get taken by someone else…!Music: Alright (Elp Version)  An old man is continually turning the faucet behind the three.  It’s a bit hot though...  You know, I’ve been wonderin’ for a while now… But what do you think about Ann? As a “girl,” I mean. No, that’s not what I meant… C’mon, can’t you act a little more like a guy our age? Doesn’t she at least look better than a celebrity? I’ll be sure to share what you’ve said with Ann. Please don’t. Seriously... That aside, we need to hurry and find our next target. About that though… Is targetin’ famous people enough? Seein’ people’s reactions these days has been makin’ me think twice about what we do…I love that we’re having this conversation in front of this old man who isn’t even paying attention. ...True. Pursuing only what’s best in the short term may end up becoming fruitless for us. We need a strategy to appeal to the public... Oh? Whaddya got in mind? Do I look like someone who could come up with such a thing? I was an idiot for askin’. I’m more like the charge commander… and Morgana’s a specialist of that world… Hmmm… Hrmm… Still… ...Ughhhh! It’s frickin’ hot!Ryuji gets out of the water.  ...I can’t stand it anymore! Anyways, let’s meet up again early next week. I’ll contact everyone!Music: Beneath the Mask   This game is amazing. I’m not talking about you! Wait… Don’t eavesdrop on me! Tell me more about those diabolical millennials!  They have high appeal among young people and are said to be involved in Mr. Madarame’s confession. Their methods are unknown, and many are voicing concern that this group may be dangerous, but… It seems a lot of people have started talking about the Phantom Thieves. I will be fine here. I sleep in my studio on occasion, so this is luxurious in comparison.Yusuke, if you’re gonna stay here, we have to establish some boundaries. I may order a maid from time to time, and I’m gonna need you to be cool about this.   Music: Aria of the Soul    You’re in the presence of our master. Stand up straight! The bonds that you have reeled in are quite intriguing… In other words, they all have been unfairly labeled by society and are standing up against such fates. Have you noticed? Your heart seems to inspire theirs. *chuckle* Outcasts of society… In other words, you’re picaresque. Deepen your bonds with them. Those will become the strength behind your rehabilitation. …I look forward to it. I shall grant you an ability befitting of your newfound growth. Consider it a gift. May you continue devoting yourself to further rehabilitation. I feel like my bond with Igor is growing deeper... And we finally get to 10 Persona slots. It’s almost time...
Arist fucked around with this message at 20:27 on May 3, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2017 21:28
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I am very excited for what the game is building up to in both the near and far future.
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Aug 27, 2017 21:46
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Arist posted:
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Aug 27, 2017 21:53
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I never understood where the 'bad cook' jokes came from or why they were funny
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Aug 27, 2017 22:01
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DeafNote posted:I never understood where the 'bad cook' jokes came from Japan is not the most progressive nation in regards to gender roles.
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Aug 27, 2017 22:02
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I'm behind on updates. Goro means fifth child, if I recall correctly, doesn't it? I wonder if he comes from a family of detective brothers or something. Oh, he's an orphan. Never mind, then. The Ron Paul edit was great. This is becoming more like Vento Aureo with each update. All we need now is an evil drug dealer. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 22:03
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Arist posted:
First time I played this game, I paused at this point to look up what the hell "picaresque" was. Dictionary.com posted:picaresque Yep, checks out. 
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Aug 28, 2017 00:23
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I don't know if showing this drunk man and not connecting the dots that he's also the jerk at the hotel is an attempt at dramatic irony or the writers being deliberately obtuse, but I don't think it works well either way.Arist posted:
I really like the readings for both of these lines, by the way. Ryuji sounds like a defiant rear end and Makoto sounds totally miserable, it's well done.
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Aug 28, 2017 00:25
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How long is Yusuke going to take up space in Joker's room? Whoever said it was the next hideout seems to be half right
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Aug 28, 2017 01:29
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Hearing Joker's story is incredibly rage inducing. So messed up. And Ryuji's is just sad.
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Aug 28, 2017 02:08
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One thing about traditional picaresque heroes is that they skirt the law without breaking it too badly. The heroes of Persona 5 can't really say the same. Well, except that in the technical sense there may not actually be a law that applies to what they are doing. Laws specifically against brainwashing don't really exist. That would be covered under kidnapping and assault.
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Aug 28, 2017 02:10
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I do not think it is specifically illegal to break into the collective unconsciousness and beat the evil out of a dude's soul.
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Aug 28, 2017 02:13
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Night10194 posted:I do not think it is specifically illegal to break into the collective unconsciousness and beat the evil out of a dude's soul. Well, it's not wrong. But we're on the wrong side of the law. Basically if we were ever tried in court like Akechi said, they would say we were wrong, especially in a messed up crappy world like this. Also I'm sure it's the end that bothers people because they don't know how it happens.
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Aug 28, 2017 02:25
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Arist posted:
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Aug 28, 2017 07:16
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Night10194 posted:I do not think it is specifically illegal to break into the collective unconsciousness and beat the evil out of a dude's soul. Brainwashing is illegal, but it may be the kidnapping and psychological torture aspect of it. I guess it's really about the ethicality of robbing someone of their free will. It seems that the palaces are built up from people with a high opinion of themselves, and if that's the case then people with that power could "steal the hearts" out of anyone who is proud of their accomplishments. It could break politicians, clergy members, CEOs and people who impact the world, for good or for ill. It is forcing them to face what they have done, and kind of leaves them broken, as we've seen in the game.Yes the two targets have been irredeemable assholes, but you could imagine how the ability to steal hearts could be abused. It also robs them of their ability for self redemption. Imagine a power hungry CEO who bullies and manipulates their way into a huge market share by destroying smaller competitors. One day, that person decides to take that money and become philanthropist and donate to needy causes all over the world. Yes, they've done lovely things in the past, but they've made the decision to bring good into the world all on their own instead of through someone literally yanking the evil out of their heads. I think a self redemption is worth much more than a forced one.
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Aug 28, 2017 07:28
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Extreme therapy isn't illegal
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Aug 28, 2017 10:41
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CommaToes posted:It also robs them of their ability for self redemption. Imagine a power hungry CEO who bullies and manipulates their way into a huge market share by destroying smaller competitors. One day, that person decides to take that money and become philanthropist and donate to needy causes all over the world. Yes, they've done lovely things in the past, but they've made the decision to bring good into the world all on their own instead of through someone literally yanking the evil out of their heads. I think a self redemption is worth much more than a forced one. You could use the same argument to say a violent criminal shouldn't be imprisoned. I don't think it holds up.
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Aug 28, 2017 10:43
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ajkalan posted:I don't know if showing this drunk man and not connecting the dots that he's also the jerk at the hotel is an attempt at dramatic irony or the writers being deliberately obtuse, but I don't think it works well either way. I don't really think it's as bad as what you're saying. We are speaking of the worst day of Maaku's life, after all; there probably is an element of suppression that's going on here, especially given how high up the guy appears to be in society, and how badly Maaku was hosed up by his whim. I don't read this so much as "Maaku isn't connecting the dots because melodrama/pacing", but rather "The very sight of the man who ruined Maaku's life bring up a lot of poo poo he really doesn't want to deal with right now, plus he doesn't know the guy's name, so why torment himself?", which doesn't strike me as being too unreasonable from a writing standpoint. Bear in mind it took a good 2-3 months of being Ryuuji's friend for him to really open up about the details of why he's in Tokyo, and even then when in a place of comfort and trust.
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Aug 28, 2017 13:36
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GeneX posted:Extreme therapy isn't illegal There's no crime elucidated in either common law or statute that I'm aware of that could cover this. It's not assault nor battery, since the victim isn't physically touched or even physically threatened ("stealing your heart" is laughably obtuse as a threat). There's no breaking or entering since these are spaces that don't exist except as a mental construct. If you want to claim "coercion" that isn't a crime per se, only a defense in certain legal actions, and in the event the law doesn't contemplate fantastical scenarios such as the invasion of a mental palace. Let's imagine the local DA going before the grand jury to obtain an indictment: "We have no physical evidence, no eyewitnesses, but these punks showed up to their school one day, which they turned into a mental projection of a teacher's twisted desires, beat down a dream-like being of his own id and forced him to recant his actions. Please stop laughing." Maybe in Japan there's a Meiji-era law against loving with someone's feng shui or something, but it's so ridiculous to think of it in legal terms. In this portrayal of an unjust world, Maaku would be right to be worried about trumped up charges that would give a veneer of legality. But even within P5 Tokyo, all this has to sound utterly delusional if presented as we see it in the game.
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Aug 28, 2017 13:49
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Gort posted:You could use the same argument to say a violent criminal shouldn't be imprisoned. I don't think it holds up. The difference is that violent criminals broke the law. Therefore they should be imprisoned.
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Aug 28, 2017 14:38
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kw0134 posted:I made this point earlier but I want to really drill down on this now: It's very much going to depend on country/district, but coercion actually is, in and of itself, a crime in many areas. It's generally another charge added on top of whatever the actual method is (blackmail, extortion, etc.), but law enforcement are perfectly capable of using it alone as well. And the PTs are most certainly guilty of it. Now if we're getting into actually charging the Phantom Thieves then the answer is "who knows?" due to just how absurd the circumstances are. Probably some combination of coercion and blackmail charges combined with forced confessions by whatever member law enforcement managed to crack (these are an issue in the Japanese law system). Alternatively start stacking other crimes like breaking and entering, and trespassing (both of which could be applicable to the Madarame case).
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Aug 28, 2017 15:33
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CommaToes posted:The difference is that violent criminals broke the law. Therefore they should be imprisoned. I think most people would argue that immoral behaviors that are detrimental to society as a whole, or just to the health, happiness and well being of one's underlings, are immoral and ought to be against the law. You can't say that just because something isn't illegal then it's automatically moral.
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Aug 28, 2017 15:41
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Basically the Phantom Thieves are most banking on the Air Bud defense. There's no law that says you can't brainwash a man into repenting his evil deeds!
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Aug 28, 2017 15:46
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kw0134 posted:I made this point earlier but I want to really drill down on this now: All of this is true! I feel like in the narrative of the game it's also very obscure - some characters like Mr. Justice there are saying 'It's morally wrong' and then presumably take that a step further - 'since it's morally wrong and I believe that our system of justice is moral, I also believe that it would be found legally wrong in a court of law', and some characters are like, 'I don't actually think the Phantom Thieves even exist', and by the letter of the law, in the physical world they haven't done anything wrong, like, at all. You could make an argument for like... harassment, with the calling cards. That's about it. Meanwhile on our end, we know we're actually the heroes, although given the delicacy of the operations #Millennials are taking on, it could very easily slide into being villains. I think that's all, you know, on purpose, so trying to pin down 'IT'S WRONG AND ILLEGAL' vs 'IT'S ILLEGAL GO TO JAIL' isn't gonna go anywhere.
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Aug 28, 2017 16:08
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CommaToes posted:It also robs them of their ability for self redemption. Imagine a power hungry CEO who bullies and manipulates their way into a huge market share by destroying smaller competitors. One day, that person decides to take that money and become philanthropist and donate to needy causes all over the world. Yes, they've done lovely things in the past, but they've made the decision to bring good into the world all on their own instead of through someone literally yanking the evil out of their heads. I think a self redemption is worth much more than a forced one. People like Kamoshida and Madarame could never have redeemed themselves in their present circumstances, because they'd wormed their way into positions where society protected and even rewarded their corrupt behavior. For all of Ryuji's attention-deficit bluster, he's dead-on in saying that the Phantom Thieves succeed where society fails, because they hit people who would otherwise be untouchable through ordinary means.
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Aug 28, 2017 16:23
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CommaToes posted:It seems that the palaces are built up from people with a high opinion of themselves Except, if you bothered to pay attention to the game being played, you wouldn't the palaces are made from distorted desires. It's not enough to just have a high opinion of themselves, they have to, in some way, be severely messed up, by definition. If the only prerequisite was having a high opinion of yourself, Tokyo would be crawling with palaces.
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Aug 28, 2017 16:48
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If I were to label the phantom thieves' acts as crimes, it'd probably be somewhere along the lines of blackmailing, harrassment, stalking, perhaps breaking and entering here and there (specifically entering Madarame's room without permission, if he wants to be petty about it). Would vigilantism be a crime in Japanese law? It might also count under a vague law against forming organisations with the aim of committing crimes, which is what self-styled thieves would fall under. (This would be "bendevorming" in Belgian law.) The thing is that Goro & the rest of society don't actually know about the metaverse nor how the phantom thieves work. As far as they know these might be hackers or literal thieves who swiped documents and who blackmail influential people into doing embarrassing things or confessing crimes, and this is suspicious enough to warrant investigating. EDIt: not only that, but if you were to take brainwashing and "stealing your heart" at face value, somebody who doesn't know the protagonists intimately would be entirely justified in trying to end that poo poo as fast as possible before they go all Death Note on society. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 18:03
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I would love to see "What would charge the Phantom Thieves with?" given as an extra credit question on a law exam or something. You might be able to nail them on something along the lines of practicing medicine without a license, or performing a medical procedure without the consent of the patient. If you can prove that the metaverse exists and can be used for such things. E: Obviously, the correct answer is tax evasion on the giant piles of money that we get from beating up shadows. No way we're reporting that on whatever the Japanese equivalent of the 1040 is. Arcsech fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 18:09
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serefin99 posted:Except, if you bothered to pay attention to the game being played, you wouldn't the palaces are made from distorted desires. It's not enough to just have a high opinion of themselves, they have to, in some way, be severely messed up, by definition. If the only prerequisite was having a high opinion of yourself, Tokyo would be crawling with palaces. Well, then you have to ask who decides what is and isn't "distorted." How objective is the "cognitive world?" Do its ethics necessarily match ours, or are we just seeing the parts of our ethics that match, i.e., the distortion of genuinely vile people like Kamoshida and Madarame?
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Aug 28, 2017 18:26
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Poltergrift posted:Well, then you have to ask who decides what is and isn't "distorted." How objective is the "cognitive world?" Do its ethics necessarily match ours, or are we just seeing the parts of our ethics that match, i.e., the distortion of genuinely vile people like Kamoshida and Madarame? I don't think they thought it through nearly that far, though it's actually an interesting question
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Aug 28, 2017 18:39
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Poltergrift posted:Well, then you have to ask who decides what is and isn't "distorted." How objective is the "cognitive world?" Do its ethics necessarily match ours, or are we just seeing the parts of our ethics that match, i.e., the distortion of genuinely vile people like Kamoshida and Madarame? P5's got this weird half-assed take on Rousseau where everyone is assumed to be naturally good, and cruel or destructive behavior is an unnatural deviation from that base state. There's probably another philosopher somewhere that'd be a closer match, but I'm not up to date on the subject.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:03
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I kinda just assume the palace masters know on some deep, subconscious level that what they're doing is wrong, but instead of feeling remorse for it, they revel in the fact that they're getting away with it. This doesn't really hold up for some examples that we haven't seen, so I don't know if this is really what's going on.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:12
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ChaosArgate posted:I kinda just assume the palace masters know on some deep, subconscious level that what they're doing is wrong, but instead of feeling remorse for it, they revel in the fact that they're getting away with it. This doesn't really hold up for some examples that we haven't seen, so I don't know if this is really what's going on. There's nothing all that secret or remarkable about how the Palace owners distort themselves - they just wrap themselves up in layers of justification over why their behavior is sensible and rational. It's typical of lovely people all across the world. Kamoshida kept telling himself that his abuse and exploitation of his students was just his due for lending his services to the school, and when you think about it he's the victim here for being put under so much pressure in his glory days. Madarame excused his theft and plagiarism with the belief that art is inherently capitalistic and he was just playing the system as it should be played. When the Palace collapses, those justifications collapse too, and the target loses all the barriers that prevent them from recognizing the hurt they've caused and the guilt that comes with it.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:22
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ChaosArgate posted:I kinda just assume the palace masters know on some deep, subconscious level that what they're doing is wrong, but instead of feeling remorse for it, they revel in the fact that they're getting away with it. This doesn't really hold up for some examples that we haven't seen, so I don't know if this is really what's going on. I actually assumed the opposite. If we were to extrapolate our knowledge of persona 4 and the way shadows work there, I'd say the palace masters know on some deep, subconscious level that what they're doing is wrong, so their cognition/self-image unnaturally justifies or omits these bad parts of themselves as a defense mechanism. The shadow versions we see are what they are deep down, but if you were to bring Kamoshida to his own palace and show him his own shadow, his reaction would be a "gently caress off, that's not me, that's some lovely caricature of me." à la persona 4. Unlike persona 4, accepting yourself isn't a moment of happiness and acceptance that you're different from others, and that's okay. Instead, it's realizing you've seriously hosed up, and the illusion shatters and now they're horrible husks of guilt-ridden tears as they can no longer fool themselves into believing this behavior is normal or justified in some way. In Freudian terms I'd say that a palace owner's id has conquered the ego and the superego, but the palace owner's ego desperately wants to believe it's still working towards the superego. Hence the "distorted" desire. They have some mental image of themselves and it takes the phantom thieves kicking the snot out of the id for the ego to realize that, oh poo poo, he's jumped off the slippery slope at some point down his life and he's reveling in the id instead of working towards a better version of himself. Oxxidation makes a good point raising Rousseau, but I don't think persona 5 makes much of a statement about humans in the way Rousseau did. Rather, persona 5 seems to go for a statement on the nature of evil. It's not wilful evil, evil isn't borne from somebody being fundamentally evil. Rather, evil is the absence of good, is the absence of moral fortitude or societal checks and balances. Kamoshida and Madarame probably thought they were, if not good people, at least "normal" people, and that what they were doing was nothing out of the ordinary, or justified by the circumstances, or what have you. It's the theological theory of privatio boni, and I think it's an interesting take from a game that could easily have justified dehumanizing monsters such as rapists or murderers and letting you beat them up as a power fantasy (which persona 5 really is in quite a lot of ways). It considers these people not fundamentally different from you or me, but as warnings of what you or me could become if we are granted power and we lack the resilience or environment to prevent us from abusing it. In that sense I think it makes interesting artistic statements. With regards to the question DeafNote posted:all this talk does make me wonder if there could be a person so depraved, not even a change of heart would entirely redeem his personality I think the answer would be "theoretically possible, but the game is idealistic enough to assume that every individual has the possibility of good in them, no matter how deep you have to dig". It has a quite Kantian look on life.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:32
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 17:09 |
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it's a game about punching evil dudes in the face to make them stop being evil it's not hard
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Aug 28, 2017 19:33
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