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It's not hard... But it's heart. Get your facts straight son EDIT: specifically you're punching them in their heart, not their face. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 19:44
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Poltergrift posted:Well, then you have to ask who decides what is and isn't "distorted." How objective is the "cognitive world?" Do its ethics necessarily match ours, or are we just seeing the parts of our ethics that match, i.e., the distortion of genuinely vile people like Kamoshida and Madarame? That's kinda like asking who decides what objects are the color blue. Without getting into the vagaries of subjective perception, an object is blue because it reflects certain wavelengths of light and not others. A desire is distorted enough to form a palace because it follows from the quasi-natural laws of the cognitive world that it should be so. The Persona series is based on Jungian psychology, which includes the concept of the shadow aspect - or just shadows, as the games call them. The shadow aspect is the parts of one's psyche that one does not wish to acknowledge, not even to oneself. Thus the shadows of Kamoshida and Madarame act like cartoon villains because deep down both men knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they repressed that realization behind years of justifications and excuses. This is why I commented about psychopaths earlier, how they wouldn't have a palace no matter what they did. Morality is not dictated by society, at least not primarily. Most of the big ticket items are instinctual. They hold true regardless of where you're from on Earth or what time period you're in. Though just like with the villains we've seen so far, people have been finding excuses to violate morality since forever. This creates an internal conflict that is the source of the distortion.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:36
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Junpei posted:it's a game about punching evil dudes in the face to make them stop being evil gently caress off. This is a legitimately interesting conversation, and the series is meant to raise questions about human nature. Speaking of which, I always figured that morality is primarily based around the fact that humans are a social species by nature. If one of us is 'injured' or in danger, the instinct is to jump to its aid. (Against say, natural predators like other animals) Causing harm to our own goes against that, but because we have the ability to reason, we can also twist our self preservation instinct to justify why we would do harmful things. Even if doing the opposite poses no real threat to our well being. I wouldn't claim the writers 'didn't think' about some of this. One has to realize that the scope of what the game can address without utterly losing its audience can be limited. It keeps the idea rolling enough for being engaged, while letting enough aspects be unexplained to allow discussion easily.
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Aug 28, 2017 21:45
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that was just a joke dude, chill
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Aug 28, 2017 21:51
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Junpei posted:that was just a joke dude, chill Would You Kindly  But yea, I kinda have to agree here. There's a LOT of society that could benefit from "Having their heart stolen" and poo poo, a lot of higher ups/rich folk in every company/country generally do not have the betterment of the common man in their best interests. But...is that the right thing to do really? I know, I know, Atlus game and all. But is that really considered "Justice"? It's little more akin to brain washing than anything else. It's certainly on shaky legal and moral grounds, but if the people really do make amends for their ways AND make up for it one way or another...could it all even out in the end? I know there's more than just a few starving mouths out there that could really use some "donations" of some sort, be it monitary or otherwise.
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Aug 28, 2017 22:26
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Junpei posted:that was just a joke dude, chill  Poltergrift posted:Well, then you have to ask who decides what is and isn't "distorted." How objective is the "cognitive world?" Do its ethics necessarily match ours, or are we just seeing the parts of our ethics that match, i.e., the distortion of genuinely vile people like Kamoshida and Madarame? It seems to me to be less about "distorted desires" (however much the game harps on that phrase) and more about distorted perception of the world in a way that is fed by and used to justify evil behavior. Kamoshida doesn't see himself as a teacher whose goal is to help students, he sees himself as a king that can do whatever he wants with no consequences. Madarame sees himself as an artist, but really isn't one - he just steals the work of others. We'll continue seeing that pattern with future palaces, including (trying to keep this as un-spoilery as possible) one that is not born from evil desires or actions by the palace ruler, but just from a very distorted perception of the world. I'm not sure palaces are forged from evil as much as a disconnect from reality.
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Aug 28, 2017 22:34
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I really don't consider the changes of heart to be brainwashing, mainly because the Thieves aren't really forcing their targets to change their behavior - that just comes about as a consequence of them realizing what absolute shitlords they are. It's a small distinction, but a crucial one. So far they don't even particularly care about how their targets choose to rehabilitate themselves after their confession, because their concern is largely with alleviating the wrongs and potential damage that their targets can inflict. Akechi positions himself on the institutional end of the definition of "justice," something that's agreed upon and executed by society at large. The Thieves are more on the humanistic, cosmic end - to hell with what society thinks is right and wrong, because society itself is broken. There's no amount of institutional say-so that can justify the selfishness and cruelty that their main targets have displayed.
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Aug 28, 2017 22:35
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Arcsech posted:I would love to see "What would charge the Phantom Thieves with?" given as an extra credit question on a law exam or something. Actually, not so much tax evasion as counterfeiting. The only way we've seen items crossing between the Metaverse and the normal world is in the hands of Persona users, and when the team brings out Kamoshida's treasure it was explicitly stated that the "real" medal was still in Kamoshida's possession but that this copy was identical in every way. There's no way for the shadows to have actually gotten their hands on real currency, so when our team brings money from the Metaverse out into the real world they're essentially creating money that was never printed or coined by the government. It's identical to the real thing, but it's still technically just as fake as Kamoshida's medal. And as for why we get money from shadows in the first place if they have no way of getting money, our characters live in a country where the release of a new Dragon Quest game is practically a holiday and nearly everybody is familiar with at least the basic mechanics of RPGs. With that kind of cognitive structure, it'd actually be strange if money DIDN'T appear out of nowhere when you defeat a monster.
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Aug 28, 2017 23:35
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Deltasquid posted:I actually assumed the opposite. If we were to extrapolate our knowledge of persona 4 and the way shadows work there, I'd say the palace masters know on some deep, subconscious level that what they're doing is wrong, so their cognition/self-image unnaturally justifies or omits these bad parts of themselves as a defense mechanism. The shadow versions we see are what they are deep down, but if you were to bring Kamoshida to his own palace and show him his own shadow, his reaction would be a "gently caress off, that's not me, that's some lovely caricature of me." à la persona 4. Unlike persona 4, accepting yourself isn't a moment of happiness and acceptance that you're different from others, and that's okay. Instead, it's realizing you've seriously hosed up, and the illusion shatters and now they're horrible husks of guilt-ridden tears as they can no longer fool themselves into believing this behavior is normal or justified in some way. But then how do the "palaces" in Persona 4 work?
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Aug 28, 2017 23:37
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Well Persona 3 and 4 both had their "palaces" work different ways and they had different dieties behind them (Nyx and Izanami respectively), and something had to create the metanav. Maybe the way this works changes depending on
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Aug 29, 2017 00:13
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Mraagvpeine posted:But then how do the "palaces" in Persona 4 work? That was a completely different Metaverse with different rules. The Metaverse seen in Persona 4 seemed to be localized, but somewhat segregated from the real world, such that it could only be accessed through objects that fit a certain idea (TVs), and only formed a palace or spawned a person's true shadow when that person physically entered it. It has its own topography, making it possible to travel between palaces if one knows where to look (spacial relationships may be messed up). The Metaverse in Persona 5 is a reflection of the real world, possibly an outgrowth of the collective unconscious, which would be why people's shadows manifest there so readily. All the realms within are only loosely connected. You cannot travel from one palace to another directly. Both of these Metaverses exist at the same time, but are not directly related. Tl;dr: There's no point in expecting them to behave in the same way. Montegoraon fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 00:20
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Mraagvpeine posted:But then how do the "palaces" in Persona 4 work? I'd say a combination of peoples' perception of the kidnapped victims, and said victim's own perception of reality; the former builds the framework, while the latter added more details. Without the victim inside the TV world, the 'palace' would be ambiguous and roughly defined. Another point to consider is the repressed facets of the victims in P4 were feeling dissatisfied by or stuck with parts of their life that they would like to cast off.
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Aug 29, 2017 00:21
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Basically the world of Persona is one where all humans are constantly trying to commit mass suicide with their own brains and have succeeded at least once, when they collectively imagined Hitler blowing up the world with an ancient Mayan spaceship. It kind of sucks for everyone.
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Aug 29, 2017 00:57
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CommaToes posted:The difference is that violent criminals broke the law. Therefore they should be imprisoned. Sexual assault, assault, and misuse of power are crimes, as are fraud, plagiarism, and manslaughter. The people targeted in the game aren't just doing bad things, they're doing illegal things, but people are covering up for them because it's convenient. In that way, the villain in Persona 5 isn't just the individual targets, but society itself, and the way people will overlook horrific acts and downplay them into being 'not that bad' because doing nothing to stop them is beneficial. The woman Maaku helped was a victim of assault, but she turned on Maaku in order to save he own skin, because otherwise her attacker would have made things worse for her. The teachers ignore the huge abuse scandal brewing because having Kamoshida associated with the school is beneficial. Makoto is so far unwilling to rock the boat even though she personally sees people covering up abuse and ignoring crime because she's been raised to believe that women who cause a fuss, no matter how moral the cause, are prevented from advancing in society. And the sick thing is, what Makoto has been told is in many ways right. Kamoshida was a symptom of a social system that discourages checks on power, whistleblowing, and people standing up for what's right at the expense of their own security and comfort. He chose to do the things he did and he has full responsibility for his actions. But if people had been more willing to stop him, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. While Kamoshida has full responsibility for his actions, the parents who ignored their kids and the teachers and principal who actively covered up abuse also have partial responsibility. They don't take that responsibility from him but create it for themselves. Madarame is a bit weirder here because there wasn't such a system of checks and balances that should have stopped his behavior before it got started. In a school, there should be a lot of oversight, but Madarame committed a lot of his crimes on a one-on-one basis. Still, an artist whose style changes so dramatically and who has an entire host of disgraced former proteges who have been blacklisted from the art community on his say-so raises a lot of red flags, so while it's not shown so explicitly as with Kamoshida, I fully believe people were ignoring the many red flags around Madarame willfully because they didn't want to run up against his social clout in a close-knit community. While many artists experiment with style and have distinct stylistic phases, it's really hard for me to believe that nobody ever suspected Madarame's obscene patchwork quilt of plagiarism was all his own work, especially given his 'bad track record' with students and the fact that he would be unable to 'return' to past stylistic cues and themes once he's milked a student dry and discarded him. Given the fact that the magical otherworld in the Persona gaves is the collective unconscious of humanity, the fact that each major villain so far has been enabled and aided in committing their crimes by moral passivity seems to be the key.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:01
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PetraCore posted:Madarame is a bit weirder here because there wasn't such a system of checks and balances that should have stopped his behavior before it got started. In a school, there should be a lot of oversight, but Madarame committed a lot of his crimes on a one-on-one basis. Still, an artist whose style changes so dramatically and who has an entire host of disgraced former proteges who have been blacklisted from the art community on his say-so raises a lot of red flags, so while it's not shown so explicitly as with Kamoshida, I fully believe people were ignoring the many red flags around Madarame willfully because they didn't want to run up against his social clout in a close-knit community. While many artists experiment with style and have distinct stylistic phases, it's really hard for me to believe that nobody ever suspected Madarame's obscene patchwork quilt of plagiarism was all his own work, especially given his 'bad track record' with students and the fact that he would be unable to 'return' to past stylistic cues and themes once he's milked a student dry and discarded him. That is still kind of the point though. The art community loves having such an esteemed artist as Madarame in their midst that they are willing to look over almost everything in order to keep him there. Add to the fact that a lot of very wealthy people have profited from his plagiarism and all the checks and balances are gone. People did suspect him enough that it was a constant rumor about him but those in power were unwilling to take a good hard look at what amounted to an art sweatshop as doing so would make them all look like worse.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:26
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For the record:Arist posted:
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Aug 29, 2017 02:57
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Obstruction of justice, blackmail, defamation, possession of weapons...
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Oxxidation posted:Basically the world of Persona is one where all humans are constantly trying to commit mass suicide with their own brains and have succeeded at least once, when they collectively imagined Hitler blowing up the world with an ancient Mayan spaceship. Eeeeh. For all we know, Multiverse Theory is in effect here. AKA: 1 and 2 happened, but in a different time-line. Where 3 onward could have conceivably been split off before the events of P1 and 2. Specially since P3 and 4 ARE somewhat connected in universe, P5 has bits and pieces here and there that 3 and 4 happened in the same time-line. And despite characters from 1 and 2 showing up as cameos in P3's TV segments (As our wonderful LPer by the name of Dragonatrix has been pointing out in his LP of both major versions of 3), it's POSSIBLE the events of P1 and P2 didn't happen in the same time-line as when Tatarus and the TV worlds happened to the respective characters. Granted, I don't exactly have intimate knowledge of 1 and 2. Just bits here and there, like most people I'm much more familiar with P3 onward, so I could be completely wrong about my "theory" and you can all point and laugh at me as needed.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:06
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Hunt11 posted:That is still kind of the point though. The art community loves having such an esteemed artist as Madarame in their midst that they are willing to look over almost everything in order to keep him there. Add to the fact that a lot of very wealthy people have profited from his plagiarism and all the checks and balances are gone. People did suspect him enough that it was a constant rumor about him but those in power were unwilling to take a good hard look at what amounted to an art sweatshop as doing so would make them all look like worse. Fair enough! So yeah, while I don't know if it's a requirement to make a Palace in general, I think within the context of Persona 5 part of what takes someone past being an rear end in a top hat and turns their thoughts into 'distorted desires' is being able to get away with things because people overlook their wrongdoings. In that sense, the natural check to that sort of thing is supposed to be other people, in a much more mundane way then breaking into a Palace and menacing the Shadow. It's only when literally every other check and balance has dropped the ball that the Phantom Thieves are able to get involved, much less should get involved. So basically, my stance is that it's wrong to forcibly change someone's heart, which is the point. Because nobody else was willing to nip these things in the bud, things got out of control to the point that Palaces formed and the very fabric of the collective unconscious warped. I think Mementos, as grind-y as it is, actually is an example of that because you don't even have to do anything that dramatic to the Shadows, just kinda punch them as they're punching you, and then eventually they'll be like, 'hmm, well, I thought it was okay because x' and you go 'no, there are better ways to deal with x'. It's a lot more like therapy than what goes on in the Palaces, and it basically ends with a productive conversation, not threatening to murder someone. EDIT: Like I think the Mementos mini-bosses are more like helping someone semi-naturally have an epiphany and convincing them to change their behavior before it warps out of control. It'd still be better to go through that using mundane ways, but that's not really possible for our protagonists.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:14
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Kemix posted:Eeeeh. For all we know, Multiverse Theory is in effect here. AKA: 1 and 2 happened, but in a different time-line. Where 3 onward could have conceivably been split off before the events of P1 and 2. Specially since P3 and 4 ARE somewhat connected in universe, P5 has bits and pieces here and there that 3 and 4 happened in the same time-line. And despite characters from 1 and 2 showing up as cameos in P3's TV segments (As our wonderful LPer by the name of Dragonatrix has been pointing out in his LP of both major versions of 3), it's POSSIBLE the events of P1 and P2 didn't happen in the same time-line as when Tatarus and the TV worlds happened to the respective characters. I mean, you're exactly right. The whole conceit of P2 parts 1 and 2 is that after the world went boom at the end of part 1 the forces of good went OH poo poo OH poo poo DO-OVER and shunted things into a parallel timeline where the world was still whole. Then that one almost ended, only to almost end again every five years or so. And the original world is still floating around out there, in pieces.
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Aug 29, 2017 04:33
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PetraCore posted:EDIT: Like I think the Mementos mini-bosses are more like helping someone semi-naturally have an epiphany and convincing them to change their behavior before it warps out of control. It'd still be better to go through that using mundane ways, but that's not really possible for our protagonists. It's arguable that the Memento bosses would basically have eventually warped into having a palace if they were allowed to be left alone for longer; after all, nobody was really stepping up to stop them either. The way I'd look at it is that anyone can have warped desires. You could easily twist Ryuji's frustration with adults or Ann's guilt over Shiho into something. It's whether or not you have people that can step in to stop you or to help you that will determine if those desires will manifest into a Treasure.
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Aug 29, 2017 06:02
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's arguable that the Memento bosses would basically have eventually warped into having a palace if they were allowed to be left alone for longer; after all, nobody was really stepping up to stop them either. Yeah that's what I mean. The Memento bosses are still at the point where someone external stepping in not using weird psychic brain magic could still probably prevent a ton of potential future damage, and that's why they don't have Palaces or Treasures. Their desires are getting twisted up, but they don't have the sheer inertia and reinforced behavior that leads to the more monstrous actions Kamoshida and Madarame take. Arguably the Phantom Thieves are helping more people by stepping in and nipping abusive patterns in the bud in Mementos than they are with someone like Madarame, because Madarame, while he needs to be stopped, has already done massive amounts of damage to literally dozens of people that he cannot take back. He has ruined lives and watched a woman who trusted him die when he could have helped just so he could steal her work. It's good to stop him, but the thing the game is criticizing is I think the things that let him get so far. It makes sense that a game where magic is performed via the collective unconscious of humanity is also strongly oriented on the responsibility the community has to help and support people within the community.
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Aug 29, 2017 06:17
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Also a note that Memento bosses actually do have treasures, it's the item you get after beating them. They're just considerably less valuable.
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Aug 29, 2017 06:22
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I think maybe y'all shouldn't try to analyze the justifications for any given narrative element while we're still missing like half the characters on the box art maybe some things make more sense later, I dunno, I didn't pay attention to the plot cutscenes still, lots of questions being asked which the game might theoretically answer
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Aug 29, 2017 06:48
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GeneX posted:I think maybe y'all shouldn't try to analyze the justifications for any given narrative element while we're still missing like half the characters on the box art The game itself is posing these questions
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Aug 29, 2017 08:32
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Montegoraon posted:That's kinda like asking who decides what objects are the color blue. Without getting into the vagaries of subjective perception, an object is blue because it reflects certain wavelengths of light and not others. A desire is distorted enough to form a palace because it follows from the quasi-natural laws of the cognitive world that it should be so. I remembered that there were some languages that did not have different words for "blue" and "green." Looking it up on Wikipedia there was an assortment of languages that did not have distinct words for blue and green until comparatively recently. I don't know why they included every drat language group instead of just the ones with blue/green conflation but  Sorry to single this one example out, but this whole discussion is about where people draw distinctions on a gradient. Kind of like the post-evolution Chicken or Egg argument.
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Aug 29, 2017 08:46
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habituallyred posted:I remembered that there were some languages that did not have different words for "blue" and "green." Looking it up on Wikipedia there was an assortment of languages that did not have distinct words for blue and green until comparatively recently. I don't know why they included every drat language group instead of just the ones with blue/green conflation but Not only that, there are languages (e.g. Russian) that have distinct words for different shades/tints of blue. 
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Aug 29, 2017 13:52
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habituallyred posted:I remembered that there were some languages that did not have different words for "blue" and "green." Looking it up on Wikipedia there was an assortment of languages that did not have distinct words for blue and green until comparatively recently. I don't know why they included every drat language group instead of just the ones with blue/green conflation but I know. That's exactly why I said "without getting into the vagaries of subjective perception" when I drew my comparison, which was based on the physical nature of things.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:57
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I REALLY like who we'll get last in the plot. They're a Good Character (And very easy to rank up). Shame that S-links/Confidants don't bleed out into the main game. God I wish that at some point the game would have been able to tell which characters you maxed out and which ones you didn't and give them small changes in dialogue depending on it. Granted, that's a lot of work, but if they ever went the DLC route for that kind of thing, they could add it in post-release, maybe for a nominal fee.
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Aug 29, 2017 18:21
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Kemix posted:I REALLY like who we'll get last in the plot. They're a Good Character (And very easy to rank up). Shame that S-links/Confidants don't bleed out into the main game. God I wish that at some point the game would have been able to tell which characters you maxed out and which ones you didn't and give them small changes in dialogue depending on it. Granted, that's a lot of work, but if they ever went the DLC route for that kind of thing, they could add it in post-release, maybe for a nominal fee. It'd be a fair bit of work, but not like, without precedent. Ryuji also suffers a lot from the lack of this.
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Aug 30, 2017 10:55
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Most you can realistically expect is Crimson/Unchained/whatever re-release having bits of dialogue change if you're dating someone, at least one occasion that won't come for a while. I doubt Atlus would rewrite half the game based on your S-Link progress, like Ryuji mentioned above.
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Aug 30, 2017 15:23
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Part 48: 6/12-6/13: Blackmail The Second Anon: It’s called the law... Anon: This is the police’s job. Anon: don’t even bother with this Anon: if ur so just, show ur face  At a university... Music: Disquiet   May I talk to you for a moment? Is it about the Phantom Thieves… Akechi-kun? ...You’re quite perceptive. I was wondering if there were any points in common between Kamoshida’s and Madarame’s cases. There have been victims, after all. The Phantom Thieves need to be pursued. You criticize the Phantom Thieves, yet you don’t doubt their actual existence. Oh, you saw that show on TV. Common sense can get in the way at times when pursuing the truth. Many details become logical if I think on the premise that they do exist. Is this… because my sister told you to do so? It was just a coincidence. Why do I get the feeling that you’re enjoying this? ...You may be right. Phantom thieves that use calling cards and succeed in their crime… As the so-called “Charismatic Detective,” it’d be hard for me to not see them as my rival.Calling yourself that is kind of the opposite of charismatic. You have such high self-esteem. So the Phantom Thieves are evil, and you are just? Compared to people who manipulate others’ hearts as they see fit, I believe I’m on the side of justice. Besides, I’m only using my natural-born talents for the sake of serving the world. Don’t you think the same about yourself too? …Oh, that’s surprising. So you’re just the good-girl type of pushover.drat, son. That’s harsh.  See you later. Give Sae-san my regards. Poor Makoto. Music: Break it Down (Elp Version)   You could stay until you find a place, you know. I can’t promise it’d be comfortable here though.Well, that was fast. Bye, Yusuke.  Thank you, but I’ll return to the dorms. I realized something after talking with everyone last night. Perhaps it’s due to my upbringing, but I don’t know anything of the world, let alone other people. If I’m to depict people in my art, I need to learn more about them; I must interact with them more. I’ll return to the dorms… and start over by talking with the people closest to me.I thought everyone was shunning you because of Madarame? I see. Good on you for realizing that yourself. There’s no need to exaggerate. May I come again sometime to enjoy your coffee? My doors are always open. Maaku’s been through a lot too, from what I’ve heard… Are you related to him? Huh? Oh… How would I describe it… We’re just acquaintances. Not family or anything.Aww, I thought we’d bonded. I may be overstepping my bounds, but why did you decide to take him in? My reason, huh… Probably because… he reminds me of my old self.Awwwwwwww. That’s all? Doesn’t take much when someone takes consideration on someone else. Your art instructor-- Um, “former” art instructor. He must’ve felt something for you too, besides just stealing your talents. Truth be told… I cannot hate him from the depths of my heart either. I should probably get going... Even if I kept it at the dorms, it’d only be met with skepticism. I doubt it would want that. Adding a hint of color to an otherwise ordinary day… I’m sure my mother would’ve done the same. ...I see. I’ll hold onto it for you then. Thank you for the coffee. Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)    That’s the first thing you have to say to me…? You guys sure do eat a lot… That reminds me, I haven’t seen Yusuke around. Maybe he went downstairs? You’re not my dad. That kid ended up going back to his dorms.  Don’t be ridiculous. I’d never let go of a beauty like this. This painting is amazing. Not only is the mother stunning, but the expression on her face… The regulars will probably freak out when they see it in here. Still… I feel like I’ve seen it somewhere. It’s a bit different from how I remember it, though.I appreciate that Sojiro kind of knows about Madarame (mostly through Yusuke), but is otherwise so out of touch he can’t recognize the loving Mona Lisa, which has been all over the news the last week, by sight. Well… If you’re up for the day, go on and get dressed. I opened shop hours ago, so go take the cat out somewhere.  Apologies for leaving so quietly, but your rest seemed peaceful. After a great deal of inner struggle, I have decided to return to the dormitories. Furthermore, I’ve entrusted the “Sayuri” to your protector, Sojiro. That painting should no longer exist in reality… but it is truly what my mother painted. I am simply satisfied that we were able to obtain it. And it was all because of you guys. I cannot thank you enough. PS, I still believe porridge is the best way to end a hot pot.That’s Yusuke, all right. Udon or death!    There’s some kinda thread on there looking for info about burglars using the Phantom Thieves name. Sounds pretty lame to me. Oh, I saw that too. They target restaurants, right? I actually found a really interesting post on there. “My brother has suddenly started acting violent towards everyone. I might end up getting killed at this rate… I wonder if it’s because he got caught up with all those weird people in Shibuya.” You think he means those burglars when he’s talking about them “weird people”? It may be too soon to assume that. The post said he started spending a bunch of money lately, too… Isn’t that kind of suspicious? I thought you’d say that. Although how exactly will we go about investigating? We’ll go to Shibuya in the middle of the night and catch them red-handed! No way. The police’d totally nab us if we were out that late. Plus it would be bad if the chief knew you were out in the middle of the night. Hm, if they target restaurants… Aha! What if we drew them to Leblanc?FIRE YUSUKE OUT OF A CANNON INTO THE SUN What!? There’s no way… Who would go after a shop like this?Not the point, Morgana!  Yup. I mean, you’d get kicked outta Leblanc if we failed. Oh, I suppose I left the “Sayuri” there as well. I had forgotten. How’d you forget something that important!? Either way… I don’t really want more thieves to be posing as us in the future. I wish there was some way we could make an example of these ones... At the moment, our lack of info means we will just have to wait. We can continue searching for more information wherever possible, though. Yeah. I’m gonna try looking for stuff too!So, nothing to do but wait, the ever-present Persona refrain.   Since the year started, scam victims have been on the rise, mainly in the Tokyo metro area. A massive mafia group is rumored to be behind these scam incidents, but… A mafia group? Huh. I wonder who they might be.  This just shows that many fail to truly understand what is art. Did you see past Madarame’s lies? I understand if you feel art is beyond you, but it’s good to take an interest in the finer things. That said, there is no depth to Madarame’s work. It is cheap and base, like instant coffee. Don’t fret if these concepts are difficult to grasp. Art is deep and complex… like this coffee.  Yeah, right. Well, you look like you’re on good terms. As long as you don’t cause problems, it’s fine.Music: Tokyo Daylight  This again? Maaku gains Proficiency +1, sigh.   I don’t think my bond with Ann will deepen just yet... Hm, what should we do today? >Let’s go somewhere fun. OK! Where should we go? Somewhere popular would be nice! Shibuya, huh? That’s where the Wilton buffet is… Want to go? >Go That buffet we went to before? I’ll need you to make sure I don’t eat too much, OK? Let’s go!Music: What’s Going On?  This place has so much on their menu, it’s hard not to overeat… Oh! How about this? Operation: Eat a Bit of Everything!  Honestly… it was crazy how much my stomach expanded last time. But I’ve reflected on my actions… and I won’t make the same mistake again! But, Maaku… can you keep an eye on me? I think as long as you do, my resolve won’t crumble. *nods* Well then, let’s get eating. The order you eat things seems important. Let’s start with the stuff that digests quickly... No wonder this place is expensive… I’m amazed they give out stuff like this! ...I feel like I’d just eat from it nonstop if I kept it at my house… Can you take it? What on earth am I going to do with this? I feel like my bond with Ann will grow stronger soon... Thanks for today!Music: Beneath the Mask  Well that’s sudden. Well after what that guy said, sitting around doing nothing just pisses me off! You’re talking about Akechi-kun, right? I know how you feel. C’mon, you gotta be more confident about this kinda stuff! But he did mention that the police are starting to mobilize… Either way, I don’t think we should leave Akechi-kun be. This is the perfect time to meet and discuss what our strategy should be going forward. Let us gather at the hideout tomorrow. How the hell did I lug this thing home? And where did I get all the chocolate?   That’s why I’ve poured my soul into this song—to help restore our hope. I give you… “Fake Glory”! Fake shake, fake/Shake, fake, shake/Fake one, if you want fame/You gotta deceive yourself/Fake two, if you want skills/You gotta steal ‘em from others/Fake three, if you want glory/You gotta trick your very soul/Truth, lie, fake with a shake/My future is an unknown fate/ Thanks, bay-bee! How’d you like the new tune? No way! My songs are the real deal, y’all!   Naturally! They’re dope! Things’ve been so down in Shibuya lately… I keep hearing about all these gangs. Guess Japan’s not so different from my own country... We should probably hang out with Mishima now that we can again, since we haven’t done it in a while. I guess.  Oh yeah! As your strategic image management rep, I thought I should come up with more ways to help you. Do you have time today? >Hang out with him How does the diner sound to you? Come on. But we’re meeting up with some Phangirls today.Music: My Homie  All thieves are supposed to have some special ladies, right? Wait, really…? Phantom thieves are supposed to steal girls’ hearts! Everyone knows that! Basically, I met some cool girls on the Phan-Site, and we thought it’d be fun to do an in-person meet-up. Oh, that reminds me, they think we’re just part of the Phandom. I made up this whole story about how we stumbled on the Phan-Site one day, so let’s stick to that. Don’t spill the beans, OK?  Either way, you should be excited about this! Mingling with your loyal supporters is a noble cause indeed! Plus, remember how I said I’d help publicize the Phantom Thieves? This is just the beginning! Though to be honest, I’ve never actually met someone from online in person… I wonder if I’ll be able to do it right… I did lots of research though. I know all about footing the bill and buying desserts for the girl. Apparently if things go well, you might even t-t-take her home… Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, Mishima.  It’s way past our meeting time... About our meet-up… You’re still at home!? And what about your friend…? Oh, um… yeah. Uh-huh… No, we’ll be waiting here... Wait, was that a train announcement? I could swear I just heard someone say “Shibuya” over a loudspeaker… Are you close by… Huh? Oh, no! I’m not calling you a liar… OK… Yeah… Maybe next time... Ahaha… *sigh* It seemed like they were really into the idea on the forum... I was so busy with all the new forum posts, I didn’t have time to really vet them too much. Don’t worry, I’m not! This was just a learning experience! But all this aside, I have some really good info for you guys! I won’t let you down… I’ll prove just how useful I can be to the Phantom Thieves!Yeah, whatever you say, man. Mishima seems extra motivated... Oh yeah, gimme that sweet sweet EXP bonus. It wasn’t supposed to turn out like this though… I bet those girls would never have flaked on me if they knew I’m friends with the real live Phantom Thieves.Ixnay, Mishima. We have enough problems with Ryuji constantly spouting off about it. *sigh* Being a guardian of justice isn’t so easy, huh…?Oh yeah, your job is real tough and real important.  Same, Maaku. Well, at least we’re getting used to Mishima letting us down. Well, let’s head home. Anon: Isn’t it a crime? Anon: get off your high horse Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)  Oh, for gently caress’s sake, the cops are everywhere I didn’t think we used the same station. Meeting here must be fate. How are you doing? Because you’re boring me to death. Did you stay up too late? Are you all right? ...Ah, I do like that response. It’s honest, and it keeps the conversation from dragging. ...I’ve been getting interviewed a lot lately, so I’ve been wondering how to answer such questions… I suppose it is best to simply be yourself and say what you think. You’ve given me much to consider. If it isn’t too much trouble, may I speak with you again sometime?If I have time, maybe. Music: So Boring   But what I gave them was a bona fide Japanese bank note. Don’t tell me young people these days don’t know who Hirobumi Ito is. I shudder to think that these will be the people shouldering Japan’s economy… I hope you all know your stuff. Here’s a quiz just to make sure. Hey, Hamiru. Paper money is issued by the Bank of Japan, but who issues the coins? That’s right. Unlike paper money, coins are issued by the government. Originally, the government made both coins and paper money. However, with the ability to make as much money as they wanted, the economy fell into chaos. An independent organization—namely the Bank of Japan—has been tasked with printing paper money since.Maaku gains Knowledge +1. Coins, which don’t have as much of an effect on the economy, are still produced by the government. You simply can’t trust a moron to look after your finances. The best they can manage is pocket change. Being able to get as much money as you want, whenever you want it… I hope the next Palace is somewhere awesome like that...Music: Tokyo Daylight    She says there’s no report of a lost item, so she wants you to start filling out some paperwork. Telling me that isn’t going to get you out of this. The student council room is on the third floor, next to the library. Got it? Why am I running errands for a student? I know she’s the Principal’s favorite or whatever...Music: Disquiet  What could she want…? Let’s just take a moment to admire this drawing of Akechi.  Nothin’.   I don’t know… She does seem a little worried. All I hear her tell us is, “Just leave it to me!” It’s great she’s looking out for her fellow students, but I wish she’d let us help her sometimes.  Our president wants a word with you. Don’t cause her any trouble, OK? What were we called here for? This is rather strange. ...Have a seat. Mr. Kamoshida and Madarame. Won’t you tell me the truth behind the Phantom Thieves’ incidents? I like that Morgana reacts, but Maaku is loving stone-faced. Can’t answer that? Ah, of course. There’s no way you would admit to such things.   So you think it’s true…? We’ll be OK if we keep doing this… right?Music: Tension ...What could all this mean? We screwed up...Whoops! Was it blackmail? Hypnosis? How do you corner someone into making them confess? Won’t you tell me how you did it? ...You want to say that this doesn’t prove anything, don’t you? I believe that you three are the Phantom Thieves. Now, what would the police think if they heard my recording? It’d be bad if we’re put under police surveillance. There’s no telling what’ll happen to you, too! If you confess the truth, I don’t mind just leaving this between the two of us… You’ll tell me, won’t you? This seems too good to be true. That’s the same as admitting to it, you know. Go ahead.  GOD DAMMIT RYUJI That idiot…! As loud as always… but his timing’s perfect. I’d like everyone else to hear this as well. Won’t you take me to your friends? I guess it can’t be helped now…Time to sell the others out!   Hm? He here? Is that girl a friend of yours?Music: Suspicion  Wh-What the hell? What’s the meaning of this? Ryuji Sakamoto, Ann Takamaki… And you’re Kitagawa-kun, correct? Second-year at Kosei High and former pupil of Madarame?  While those affected by their acts were just coincidentally meeting up… How could that not raise suspicions?In our defense, we’re idiots. The others look around at each other. What do you intend to do? Have you come just to say you’re going to report us? I bet someone told you to find us. The school can’t have ties to criminals, after all! And yet they turn a blind eye when it comes to suicide and sexual harassment. Those adults are just using you. I feel sorry for you. …… I… I know… Huh…?  What? I’m the only one who knows about you. If you prove what you’re doing is just, I’ll erase this. She wants to make a deal... There is someone whose heart I’d like you to change. Who? Hm, so you’re not saying it’s impossible. However… I cannot tell you that just yet. Let’s continue our talk after school tomorrow. On the roof. Assuming you accept my offer, that is.  Anything to say, Ryuji?I mean, it’s completely and totally Ryuji’s fault, no doubt. But also, this isn’t the time to be pointing fingers, because we’re completely hosed up a creek. Why’re you singlin’ me out? Ann got recorded too, y’know!Ann didn’t use the words “Phantom Thieves,” though. I’m so sorry... Hey, what should we do? That girl’s got dirt on us… A recording seems to be insufficient evidence though. And even with that, there’s no way they could prove our methods. Considering who we’re dealing with, I think it might be a trap. Regardless, Maaku would be in real trouble. He’s on probation, after all. Things’d get rough if we didn’t have our leader… and I totally don’t wanna deal with the police... Then… we have no other choice but to go along with it. Yes, it’s best we agree, at least for the time being. We made a crucial mistake… but not a critical one. We’ll just have to recover from here on out. Yeah, yeah. My bad. So… we doin’ this? All right. We’re meetin’ on the school rooftop tomorrow, yeah? What about me? I could always sneak in if necessary. That’ll draw too much attention. You should just wait outside, Yusuke. What could she be scheming…Music: Beneath the Mask -Rain-  Do we just gotta do what she says…? Considering what has happened, it seems we have no other choice. I wonder whose heart the student council president would want us to change. I am curious myself… She mentioned how she wants us to prove our justice, did she not? Yeah, she definitely did. Then there must be some reasoning behind her choice. Please contact me immediately if you find anything out. And don’t go picking any fights, OK? Do you understand, Ryuji? Why’re you singling me out!? I ain’t dumb!Oh geez, what a mystery. Why would someone single out Ryuji for idiocy today of all days?  She’s a shrewd one. We best be prepared for anything. The Kanto region is expected to enter its rainy season soon.Great news if you use Water-types. The Japan Meteorological Agency reports that we should be getting average rainfall this year. That means there’ll be more rain from now on, right? It’s gonna be more humid...Wonder how all that rain will affect Mementos...  We’ll see our way through this somehow. Anon: They’re still thieves… Anon: I secretly root for them XD Anon: They’ve always been fishy… Anon: They seem full of it, so NO Anon: of course not. done Anon: that “justice” stuff is ehh Anon: aww yeah, come back soon!!  Do you know about that Phantom Thieves forum? People said when they made a request there, it got granted! Really? That sounds super useful! Come on, pay up. You understand the position you’re in, right?
Arist fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Apr 29, 2018 |
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Aug 30, 2017 17:43
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drat! We're in a tight spot! So anyone who was wondering how long such a prominent and public hiding spot would last... well there you go: just about one boss, just like the last one. And while yes, it is Ryuji's fault for giving the game up (which I think we all knew would happen as well, I think), I'm with Arist in saying that Yusuke should not be pointing fingers at this juncture. I mean, we all had a good month or so to point out to each other that hey, maybe our meeting place is a little too flagrantly public to discuss "certain things", especially given them being accosted by the cops, and Maaku himself knowing about at least one person obviously following them. And given that Morgana approved the hideout in the first place for whatever reason and said bupkiss before today, I don't imagine anyone in our group has the ground to come the I-told-you-so routine. Criminal masterminds, we are not. And yes, Sojirou continues great, even if Maaku wasn't a party to his tenderness today. When I first played this, he came off as such a jerk that I had begun nicknaming him "the Old Goat" in my head, and... well, as you can imagine, I had really started ti regret it right about now.  Arist posted:
I love these guys. 
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Aug 30, 2017 18:23
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Arist posted:
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Aug 30, 2017 18:24
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resurgam40 posted:
Man, you have no idea how disappointed I am that you made this reference before I did, considering this is one of my favorite movies.
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Aug 30, 2017 18:26
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Arist posted:
Hirobumi Ito was featured on the back of the 1000 yen bill from 1963 to 1986. He's been holding on to a bill that has been out of circulation for (at least) 30 years. Even in Japan this reference would probably be considered somewhat obscure, especially among the target audience, but it's just one more way that Ushimaru is a really old fuddy duddy.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:59
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Clearly this wouldn't have happened if we had prayed to the Sun God more 
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Aug 30, 2017 20:01
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I just wanna say that Madarame and Kamoshida were really lucky that these idiot teens are the ones who decided to step in when it came to their crimes. If the Spirit of Vengeance got to them first then that'd be it. They'd just be splattered all over the wall of a warehouse.
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Aug 30, 2017 20:31
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https://twitter.com/grandmarth/status/868663753646014464
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Aug 30, 2017 21:16
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It amuses me that, instead of whatever subject they're nominally teaching, all of Maaku's teachers seem to spend their class time whining about their personal lives and/or modern society and asking their students weird trivia questions. HEY HAMIRU, YOUNG PEOPLE NOWADAYS DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAVE MONEY; WHICH OF THESE BANK ACCOUNT TYPES IS INTENDED FOR RETIREMENT SAVINGS
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Aug 30, 2017 21:21
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They're way less weird than the gaggle we got in 4 or in 3. Yes, our homeroom teacher is moonlighting as a maid but apart from that nothing too out there.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:27
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