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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


gradenko_2000 posted:

I'm irrationally angry that AMD CPUs did not have AVX2 until Ryzen, because that's two old computers I've built that now can't use virtual greenscreens in Zoom/Teams

thatís odd, I thought it did support it but it just ran at half the rate? So you should have instruction set level compatibility/access to the new integer instructions/etc...

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Paul MaudDib posted:

that’s odd, I thought it did support it but it just ran at half the rate? So you should have instruction set level compatibility/access to the new integer instructions/etc...

My brother is using an Athlon X4 860K on an FM2+ board and he can't get Zoom's virtual greenscreen to work, and the only other explanation is that that Zoom feature requires 4th gen Intel or better (first gen to have AVX2) or a Ryzen.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


gradenko_2000 posted:

My brother is using an Athlon X4 860K on an FM2+ board and he can't get Zoom's virtual greenscreen to work, and the only other explanation is that that Zoom feature requires 4th gen Intel or better (first gen to have AVX2) or a Ryzen.

oh I misread, I thought you were on a first gen Ryzen. Yeah bulldozer didnít do AVX2.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

Paul MaudDib posted:

thatís odd, I thought it did support it but it just ran at half the rate? So you should have instruction set level compatibility/access to the new integer instructions/etc...

The construction architectures had half-rate AVX but no support for AVX2, Zen added AVX2 support but still ran both at half-rate, Zen2 bumped them up to full-rate.

e;fb

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


kimcicle posted:

Thanks for the reply. I'm not using the stock cooler, and it looks like only the chassis fans were spinning up so I'll mess with the fan curves some more.

Depending on the mobo you can look at setting chassis fan speeds based on 'system' temp rather than CPU, which is generally a temp sensor on the mobo chip. On anything but the X570 that hardly varies, so you kinda have to change fan speeds on 2 degree intervals.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.





Nap Ghost

That background feature relying on AVX2 explains why my work laptop sounds like it's trying to do some kind of VTOL maneuver when I turn it on

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

Netflix: HEY WE HAVE NEW SERIES
Me: I don't watch much series TV
Netflix: HERE'S AN AD FOR ONE SIX SECONDS AFTER THE LAST SHOW YOU JUST WATCHED
Me: No, man, quit it
Netflix: HOW ABOUT ANOTHER EDGY DOCUMENTARY
Me: Can I watch a movie from the seventies
Netflix: NO

repiv posted:

The construction architectures had half-rate AVX but no support for AVX2, Zen added AVX2 support but still ran both at half-rate, Zen2 bumped them up to full-rate.

e;fb

I could have sworn Excavator implemented AVX2, but that didn't see much use outside some laptops, a one-off part for FM2+, and the earliest AM4 APUs. But assuming I'm not misremembering that, it'd still be pokey considering the architecture's limitations...

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

Hasturtium posted:

I could have sworn Excavator implemented AVX2, but that didn't see much use outside some laptops, a one-off part for FM2+, and the earliest AM4 APUs. But assuming I'm not misremembering that, it'd still be pokey considering the architecture's limitations...

Ah you're right, the construction series did get AVX2 right at the end with Excavator.

ShortyMR.CAT
Sep 25, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

I think I posted about this before, but I got me a monster of a dinosaur AMD FX 9590 cpu (lol) that I successfully undervolted/underclocked? so it can work on my mobo. Ok, so, now that amd released some budget ryzens I was wondering if I should go the new route or try to buy a mobo that successfully supports my my watt monster of a cpu? Anyone have any experience with the new ryzens 3s?

Pros of staying: I only need a mobo that actually supports the 220w cpu

Cons: Alot of the mobos are no longer made and the ones that are are kinda pricey for an am3+. Why pay $200 for an old mobo when I can get a new am4+ ?

Pros of switching: Well I'd have all new hardware that isn't ancient.

Cons: I'd need to buy a mobo, ram, and a cpu

I actually bought a mobo off of S.A Mart but I can not for the life of me get it to boot up. Nothing. Maybe I fried it on accident? Maybe it was bunk from the git go idk. I aint looking for 4k gaming here. But I am def not getting the full power of my set up and games work fine, but I aint getting many frames in say Call of Duty. It can chug sometimes during warzone. It runs at 30fps but thats not ideal for that game at all.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



It sounds like you've already invested in hardware that isn't working with your current setup, and it sounds like you won't be able to recoup that


Imho, get all the new stuff and sell the old stuff to somebody else in your current situation.

ShortyMR.CAT
Sep 25, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

Hmm yes yes the ol switcharoo !

But anyways, anyone have experience with the Ryzens 3s? I heard good things, but if i'm going to build new i'd rather not have to do it again so soon after. I mean, I know in this world getting 6 years out of a computer is decent.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week



Investing any money whatsoever into Athlon FX platforms in 2020 is a mistake.

The only thing that's good about it is the 8 cores means it doesn't fall over in recent games that dislike 4c CPUs, so there are places where it can outperform a 2600k or whatever. But it's not good.

OTOH:

ShortyMR.CAT posted:

but I aint getting many frames in say Call of Duty. It can chug sometimes during warzone. It runs at 30fps but thats not ideal for that game at all.

This suggests to me that your video card is choked, because a 9590 can still keep ~60fps in battlefield 5 and codblops 4. Though I guess it depends on how much you had to underclock it. If you're running it at like 3ghz to not burn out your mobo that would definitely be the reason. But I think you're probably also running too high res / detail for your system.

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

Netflix: HEY WE HAVE NEW SERIES
Me: I don't watch much series TV
Netflix: HERE'S AN AD FOR ONE SIX SECONDS AFTER THE LAST SHOW YOU JUST WATCHED
Me: No, man, quit it
Netflix: HOW ABOUT ANOTHER EDGY DOCUMENTARY
Me: Can I watch a movie from the seventies
Netflix: NO

ShortyMR.CAT posted:

I think I posted about this before, but I got me a monster of a dinosaur AMD FX 9590 cpu (lol) that I successfully undervolted/underclocked? so it can work on my mobo. Ok, so, now that amd released some budget ryzens I was wondering if I should go the new route or try to buy a mobo that successfully supports my my watt monster of a cpu? Anyone have any experience with the new ryzens 3s?

Pros of staying: I only need a mobo that actually supports the 220w cpu

Cons: Alot of the mobos are no longer made and the ones that are are kinda pricey for an am3+. Why pay $200 for an old mobo when I can get a new am4+ ?

Pros of switching: Well I'd have all new hardware that isn't ancient.

Cons: I'd need to buy a mobo, ram, and a cpu

I actually bought a mobo off of S.A Mart but I can not for the life of me get it to boot up. Nothing. Maybe I fried it on accident? Maybe it was bunk from the git go idk. I aint looking for 4k gaming here. But I am def not getting the full power of my set up and games work fine, but I aint getting many frames in say Call of Duty. It can chug sometimes during warzone. It runs at 30fps but thats not ideal for that game at all.

Shorty, donít do it. I sold my FX-8320 and jumped to a Ryzen 1700 in early 2017 and never looked back. Selling the 9590 and whatever motherboard and CPU you have and building even a vanilla Ryzen 3600 will blow your head off. Speaking as someone who has a soft spot for the construction cores, investing anything into one is Not Smart in 2020. Donít get a 990FX board out of nostalgia or a feeling of loyalty. Itís a tool, and itís profoundly outmoded now.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Klyith posted:

Investing any money whatsoever into Athlon FX platforms in 2020 is a mistake.

The only thing that's good about it is the 8 cores means it doesn't fall over in recent games that dislike 4c CPUs, so there are places where it can outperform a 2600k or whatever. But it's not good.

OTOH:


This suggests to me that your video card is choked, because a 9590 can still keep ~60fps in battlefield 5 and codblops 4. Though I guess it depends on how much you had to underclock it. If you're running it at like 3ghz to not burn out your mobo that would definitely be the reason. But I think you're probably also running too high res / detail for your system.

i get ~60 on an i5 3rd gen and a 1050ti with proper setting adjustments. runs fine but looks worse than an xbox one x will

ShortyMR.CAT
Sep 25, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

Hasturtium posted:

Shorty, donít do it. I sold my FX-8320 and jumped to a Ryzen 1700 in early 2017 and never looked back. Selling the 9590 and whatever motherboard and CPU you have and building even a vanilla Ryzen 3600 will blow your head off. Speaking as someone who has a soft spot for the construction cores, investing anything into one is Not Smart in 2020. Donít get a 990FX board out of nostalgia or a feeling of loyalty. Itís a tool, and itís profoundly outmoded now.

Don't sell or don't not sell


Klyith posted:

Investing any money whatsoever into Athlon FX platforms in 2020 is a mistake.

The only thing that's good about it is the 8 cores means it doesn't fall over in recent games that dislike 4c CPUs, so there are places where it can outperform a 2600k or whatever. But it's not good.

OTOH:


This suggests to me that your video card is choked, because a 9590 can still keep ~60fps in battlefield 5 and codblops 4. Though I guess it depends on how much you had to underclock it. If you're running it at like 3ghz to not burn out your mobo that would definitely be the reason. But I think you're probably also running too high res / detail for your system.

Long story short; it was a budget option for me at the time ($80 cpu) and the charts read that it out preformed ryzen 3s at the time. Point is I did zero research here oops.

Fake edit: it runs many games like a dream! Call of duty is usually set to low so i can maximize frames but geforce experience alyways wants to set it to ultra. Which i def can do but its a choppy mess. 25-60fps massive drops blah blah ect ect

ShortyMR.CAT fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jun 29, 2020

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



ShortyMR.CAT posted:

the charts read that it out preformed ryzen 3s at the time

lol please link the charts

was this on a space heater fan site?

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

Netflix: HEY WE HAVE NEW SERIES
Me: I don't watch much series TV
Netflix: HERE'S AN AD FOR ONE SIX SECONDS AFTER THE LAST SHOW YOU JUST WATCHED
Me: No, man, quit it
Netflix: HOW ABOUT ANOTHER EDGY DOCUMENTARY
Me: Can I watch a movie from the seventies
Netflix: NO

Statutory Ape posted:

lol please link the charts

was this on a space heater fan site?

I could actually see it happening for a gen 1 Ryzen quad sans SMT. The 9590ís a pig, but if all you cared about was x264 encoding or spinning out VMs and you could live with the heat and power, it could win at those. A 3300X should beat it senseless now, though.

ShortyMR.CAT
Sep 25, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

Statutory Ape posted:

lol please link the charts

was this on a space heater fan site?

guess i compared it to first gen ryzens idk

https://www.fxisbetterthanryzenz.org.gov

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN


ShortyMR.CAT posted:

guess i compared it to first gen ryzens idk

https://www.fxisbetterthanryzenz.org.gov

Your link is broken.

Here:

https://www.fxisbetterthanryzenz.org.gov

ShortyMR.CAT
Sep 25, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

My mistake thank you

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

I was gonna wait for Renoir, but I was still upset enough over last night that I pulled the trigger on a cheap Ryzen 5 1400 just now.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014




Apparently some people actually believe that, what, three years into Zen now? There is a distressingly high number of NASes on the market that are still powered by construction cores in embedded processors.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


SwissArmyDruid posted:

Apparently some people actually believe that, what, three years into Zen now? There is a distressingly high number of NASes on the market that are still powered by construction cores in embedded processors.

People are wrapped up in the number of cores, since that was like, AMDís major marketing for like the last 10 years including with Ryzen and people have really internalized it.

The modern incarnations are ď1600 is better than 3300XĒ and ď2700X is better than 8700KĒ.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

Yeah that's not even remotely the same thing.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


SwissArmyDruid posted:

Apparently some people actually believe that, what, three years into Zen now?

I don't think so today, but back in 2017 when ryzen was having a promising but slightly rocky launch? The 9590 was a lot of CPU for the price AMD was selling them for back then. 5ghz for $100, what's not to like? As long as you bought the special mobos that could run them... and a bigass water rad... and didn't mind the small sun worth of heat... and totally ignored the potential of Ryzen to improve vs a 4-year-old CPU that was going nowhere.


SwissArmyDruid posted:

There is a distressingly high number of NASes on the market that are still powered by construction cores in embedded processors.

The Excavator / Carrizo type is a pretty different kettle of fish though, those things were pretty much made for the low-cost NAS box.

Piledriver: try to get performance with ghz and all the watts
Steamroller: that didn't work, lets go the opposite direction and try for a low-power mobile chip
Excavator: welp, let's make the chips tiny and cheap

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Paul MaudDib posted:

People are wrapped up in the number of cores, since that was like, AMDís major marketing for like the last 10 years including with Ryzen and people have really internalized it.

The modern incarnations are ď1600 is better than 3300XĒ and ď2700X is better than 8700KĒ.

size vs motion of the ocean etc

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!


Exciting Lemon

So is the third generation of Threadripper going to just remain insanely expensive? I can't find any details about planned cheaper models that would compete with normal HEDT prices.

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

Netflix: HEY WE HAVE NEW SERIES
Me: I don't watch much series TV
Netflix: HERE'S AN AD FOR ONE SIX SECONDS AFTER THE LAST SHOW YOU JUST WATCHED
Me: No, man, quit it
Netflix: HOW ABOUT ANOTHER EDGY DOCUMENTARY
Me: Can I watch a movie from the seventies
Netflix: NO

Less Fat Luke posted:

So is the third generation of Threadripper going to just remain insanely expensive? I can't find any details about planned cheaper models that would compete with normal HEDT prices.

The 1900x and 1950x are basically living in the previous HEDT price segment. There's a big gap between the 1950x and the 3960x, though $1400 for a high-clocked 24 core part is pretty sweet... even if I'd end up underclocking it by 5-10% to tame its power usage.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



idk a couple dozen cores just doesnt excite me like it used to, you cant even really make a good TV screen from the CPU% meter with that limited amount of power

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Less Fat Luke posted:

So is the third generation of Threadripper going to just remain insanely expensive? I can't find any details about planned cheaper models that would compete with normal HEDT prices.

tbh with as uncompetitive as intel is in the segment, i almost expect the prices to get higher with future products not lower.

Seamonster
Apr 30, 2007

IMMER SIEGREICH


I woudn't call it merely expensive, not insanely. People who truly need that kind of power/IO are working on projects worth much more than the cost of complete HEDT systems, regardless of Intel suckery. Also only 1 in every 20 Zen dies gets put onto a TR part and they use more of them.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


The 3900X and 3950X are your HEDT CPUs for "enthusiast HEDT" prices.

Gen 3 threadrippers are workstation CPUs for workstation prices.

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Wedge Regret

Klyith posted:

The 3900X and 3950X are your HEDT CPUs for "enthusiast HEDT" prices.

Yeah, 12 physical cores and 64MB of L3 for $400 is amazing. The comparable Intel 12-core part (i9-9920; there does not seem to be a 12-core 10th gen part yet) is $1828 on newegg right now and has a fairly laughable 12MB of L3 cache.

What would you propose the Threadrippers be priced at?

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


mdxi posted:

Yeah, 12 physical cores and 64MB of L3 for $400 is amazing. The comparable Intel 12-core part (i9-9920; there does not seem to be a 12-core 10th gen part yet) is $1828 on newegg right now and has a fairly laughable 12MB of L3 cache.

What would you propose the Threadrippers be priced at?

seeing as a 3960X is two 3900Xs glued together (swapping the pair of IO dies for a single larger one), roughly $800 would be fair.

You can make an argument for as low as $600 - after all it's also 4x 3600 dies, that's $160 a pop (swapping 4 io dies for the single larger one). Even at $700 would they make a better profit margin than selling those dies as 3600s. But if it were $800 then OK, I guess that's fair.

Paying double the price of a 3950X, a CPU that is already completely off the price-curve for the rest of the lineup, for cutdown chips, is a ripoff.

Cutdowns are cheap and easy to produce - this is why Intel was willing to sell you the 5820K for the same price as a 4790K. The 4790K has to be absolutely perfect, the 5820K can have two broken cores and still be a 5820K. It actually makes complete economic sense for a cutdown HEDT chip to be cheaper than a "perfect" consumer chip. That's how the cost of production works out.

And the truth is that in the server market where AMD is facing much stiffer competition, they are much more willing to price aggressively. The Epyc equivalent to the 3960X is the 7402P, and those have always run several hundred dollars less than the 3960X (actually have been as low as $1050 before). Yes, it doesn't clock as high, but it has advantages in other areas as well (twice as many lanes, twice the memory channels, RDIMM support, all for less money than the Threadripper). Basically server chips have historically always been much more expensive than workstation, so you wouldn't buy them unless you had a really good reason. That situation is now reversed because AMD doesn't really feel the need to compete in the workstation market, so you should give real thought to whether you really want a super high clocked chip or whether you'd rather be running RDIMMs and more memory and more PCIe devices, because you can get much better capabilities in those areas for less money if you are willing to yield some clocks.

So I mean, AMD's own answer to "what is it actually really worth" is at least 30% less than what they are currently charging, because that is what they are willing to accept from enterprise customers for the same exact chunk of silicon.

Oh and put back TR4 support while you're at it. Despite all the excuses they "just coincidentally" managed to make that work on Epyc, but nope consumers gonna have to buy a whole new board.

Klyith posted:

The 3900X and 3950X are your HEDT CPUs for "enthusiast HEDT" prices.

Gen 3 threadrippers are workstation CPUs for workstation prices.

HEDT has always been about IO more than core count. The 3950X is not a HEDT CPU, even with 16 cores and even with PCIe 4.0.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jul 3, 2020

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



In other words, the same "AMD is leaving money on the table" argument I've been making for years.

Beautiful Ninja
Mar 25, 2009

Five time FCW Champion...of my heart.


So with an impulse decision to upgrade to 32GB of RAM, I got a chance to try out messing around with Micron Rev E./E-Die RAM. I am extremely impressed with it and have actually found it to be much easier to overclock than my old Samsung B-Die, though I do believe that was in part due to my old B-Die not being the best binned while my Micron looks to be excellent binning. Pairing this RAM with a 3900X.

I've got 2x16GB sticks to replace my old 2x8GB sticks, since going 4 DIMMS on a daisy-chain board was likely to force me to drop RAM speed significantly. Ended up getting the Crucial Ballistix RGB DDR4-3600 2x16GB set, cost a little under 200 dollars, a few bucks cheaper than what I paid for my old 16GB of B-Die. The RAM booted at XMP settings perfectly, which is not a guarantee on Zen, even on Zen 2 CPU's. The RAM is DDR4 3600 16-18-18-36 XMP, but handled DDR4 3600 CL 14-17-17-17-34 perfectly. It also looks like it's handling DDR4 3800 CL 16-18-18-18-36 well in my testing so far. Getting latency of 66ns in Aida64, only slightly worse than the B-die, with my memory speeds being even slightly higher than my old B-Die at 3800 with better timings, likely due to the benefits of dual rank vs single rank. In some game testing it looks like the E-Die is actually slightly performing the B-Die, with the dual rank pushing it over the edge.

So yeah, gently caress B-Die if you aren't literally aiming for the last percent of performance. I got the B-Die in the first place as I don't think E-Die was out yet and on a Zen/Zen+ CPU's that I was using before getting a 3900X, it was pretty much B-Die or bust if you wanted to run anything past 3200 or so without hating yourself. E-Die is half the price and 95% as good. I'm extremely pleased with how easy it was to work with Micron E-Die.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Team has a ďZa DarkĒ 4000 C18 2x16 gb kit that Newegg carries for $170 that has been tempting me. Itís reportedly micron E die but like, thatís also less than half the price of an equivalent Samsung B die kit.

How much worse is it really in practice? Canít be that bad right?

sincx
Jul 13, 2012

What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon? Decent people shouldn't think too much about that.

I'd personally recommend going with Crucial, since that guarantees Micron dies.

I have 4x16GB of Crucial Ballistix Sport LT 3200 (paid $260 total for 64 GB) running at 3733 CL16 at 1.4V on a Ryzen 3900X and it's fantastic.

EmpyreanFlux
Mar 1, 2013

The AUDACITY! The IMPUDENCE! The unabated NERVE!


Yeah I can easily do 3600-3800 on mine (CL16 to CL18) but my 2700's IMC/IF kind of loses it's poo poo about it. E-Die likes it's some voltages and looser timinigs than B-Die, but it also likes to go fast asf and can run pretty drat hot and not give a poo poo.

Also buying Crucial now pretty much guarantees Micron-E die on anything above CL15 3000.

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peepsalot
Apr 24, 2007

††††††††PEEP THIS...
†††††††††††BITCH!



Hey, so I'm looking for some Ryzen upgrade advice. Currently my main desktop looks like this:
  • CPU: Ryzen 2700X
  • Mobo: Asus TUF Gaming X570 (non-wifi)
  • RAM: Corsair 4x8GB 3000 C16 (CMK16GX4M2D3000C16) - The RAM was purchased as 2 separate kits of same-model 2x8GB, and I ended up with half micron, half samsung
  • GPU: Nvidia GTX 1660 - I don't do any serious gaming and the GPU primarily exists just to do distributed computing nerd poo poo

And I have been thinking about upgrading the CPU to a 3900X.
I mainly use this computer for software development + general internetting , and don't really *need* something faster, I'm just itching for more cores+Hz for the fun of it.

If I go ahead with this, I'm also thinking I might just keep the 2700X as a secondary system, and use that to finally retire an old rear end 4770K that I still have.
So this would mean getting another motherboard + RAM at least, and I think I'm fine just transferring over the case, PSU, GPU, and drives that the 4770K is currently using.

Even after getting seriously burned on an impulse buy "ASUS Prime B450 Plus" and basically writing that off as a complete loss, I did a bit of research and settled on that TUF as the best value in terms of very solid VRM and upgrade potential. (Fool me once, take my money I guess? But I seriously cannot stress enough how awful that Prime motherboard was, and the endless headaches/ system instability I suffered through before finally determining the culprit and upgrading).
Anyways the TUF has been rock solid for me, and I'm very satisfied with it. So if I end up keeping the 2700X for a secondary, partial re-build, then I'll probably just get another... or maybe a B550 version of the same.

So I guess my main question is regarding the newer B550 variations (which could save me up to a whopping $20!) if there's any reason not to get one?
I don't really get much about the differences, but as far as I understand:
  • VRM is exactly the same across the 550/570 variations of this series
  • If I got B550, the 3900X would have to go on that board, since it won't support Ryzen 2000?
  • B550 doesn't do PCIe 4.0? but I'm not too fussed about that
  • That's basically it???

I got my TUF X570 no-WiFi for $165 back around mid Feb, and looking at pcpartpicker, it seems the best price has gone up $15 since then. At the moment I'm seeing these prices:
$160 - B550M
$170 - B550
$180 - X570
$180 - B550M (WiFi)
$190 - X570 (WiFi)

So should I bother with the penny pinching on a B550, or even possibly B550M(mATX), which still has 4x dimm sockets too apparently? I don't care about builtin wifi either, I just figured I'd show those models as a comparison.

Lastly, and tying into recent discussion which got me thinking about upgrading again: for the RAM of the newer build, this Crucial 3600 C16 2x16GB looks like a decent deal?

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