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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


quote:

AMD has confirmed through the slides that the Ryzen 4000G series is for ‘Pre-built OEM systems’. It is unclear if the series will be offered for the consumer market.

excited to to celebrate the start of AMD "oof" season early

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CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN


The article and another one linked in the text of it both make vague statements about "mining demand" being on the rise. Is there any actual evidence that crypto is going to have an impact on GPU supplies like it did a year or two ago? I thought GPUs were no longer viable for mining.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


CaptainSarcastic posted:

The article and another one linked in the text of it both make vague statements about "mining demand" being on the rise. Is there any actual evidence that crypto is going to have an impact on GPU supplies like it did a year or two ago? I thought GPUs were no longer viable for mining.

I haven't tracked this for a long time but a 5700 is worth about $1.21 per day with free electricity and $0.49 per day with $0.20 electricity. So currently at around 400 day payback given current prices.

400 day payback doesn't matter (much), if drops lower then yeah, problem.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Jul 21, 2020

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



I've been waiting for a drat 8 core desktop part that has built in graphics and isn't a space heater come on AMD

EmpyreanFlux
Mar 1, 2013

The AUDACITY! The IMPUDENCE! The unabated NERVE!


Some extra salt in the wound

https://www.igorslab.de/en/amd-ryze...o-overclocking/

A bit buried in the article, but Renoir seems to hit 2100-2200 FCLK easily and Vega 8 itself (Core clock 2.4Ghz, FCLK 2.1Ghz, MemCLK 4.2Ghz) is about equal to an RX 460. That'd have been a perfect budget CPU for DIY, even a (4C/8T 6CU) 4300G would have been an RX 550 in performance.

I know Cezanne is coming very soon, and I know meeting OEM demand is waaay more important but it kind of sucks missing out on the first APU that can legitimately game, especially when AMD basically has no budget GPU option (No, 'Polaris ∞' really doesn't count).

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


WhyteRyce posted:

I've been waiting for a drat 8 core desktop part that has built in graphics and isn't a space heater come on AMD

I've bought a couple j5005 nucs for citrix terminals/web browsers/movie clients/etc, and my current one is doing surprisingly OK with 16GB (works fine, at 2400C16, which is a requirement even at 8GB).

there is an indiegogo for this for AMD for "minisforum" which looks like it has a really nice chassis, but it only has a 3000U series CPU for around $360 equivalent for a 3800U barebones (4C). Check out the "Asus PN50" which is launched in most markets that aren't the US, it is basically GBP 280 to 380 for the same tier but with 4800u instead of 3800U/etc, and hopefully that translates to $280-380 after removing conversion/tariffs. I think the chassis looks chintzy on the PN50 but the specs look great.

It's still a super loving bummer that the 4700G series is OEM only but you can still get a couple interesting Renoir HTPC type systems now.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jul 21, 2020

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Paul MaudDib posted:

I've bought a couple j5005 nucs for citrix terminals/web browsers/movie clients/etc, and my current one is doing surprisingly OK with 16GB (works fine, at 2400C16, which is a requirement even at 8GB).

there is an indiegogo for this for AMD for "minisforum" which looks like it has a really nice chassis, but it only has a 3000U series CPU for around $360 equivalent for a 3800U barebones (4C). Check out the "Asus PN50" which is launched in most markets that aren't the US, it is basically GBP 280 to 380 for the same tier but with 4800u instead of 3800U/etc, and hopefully that translates to $280-380 after removing conversion/tariffs. I think the chassis looks chintzy on the PN50 but the specs look great.

It's still a super loving bummer that the 4700G series is OEM only but you can still get a couple interesting Renoir HTPC type systems now.

Needs to be an atx setup and since it's my plex cablecard dvr and blue iris server needs to not be a low end core

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


WhyteRyce posted:

Needs to be an atx setup and since it's my plex cablecard dvr and blue iris server needs to not be a low end core

oh you need core performance plus expansion plus onboard graphics? rip.

x470d4u for onboard graphics via IPMI, 3900x, cablecard in the middle x4 slot, 1-slot or 2-slot nvenc-capable card in the lowest (8x), some other 8x 1-slot card (sas/etc?) in the highest slot?

(yes that adds to 20, this board wires the NVMe lanes to a real slot)

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jul 21, 2020

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Expansion really isn't a need. I use a network tuner and my 4 core i5 is enough for my current transcoding needs I just want to add some more cameras which would probably overtax the setup at peak.

The atx ask is mainly so I can keep throwing 3.5" hdds in a single case. I could switch to a nas but then my consumer backblaze account wouldn't work anymore

Yes I have stupid needs

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


WhyteRyce posted:

Expansion really isn't a need. I use a network tuner and my 4 core i5 is enough for my current transcoding needs I just want to add some more cameras which would probably overtax the setup at peak.

The atx ask is mainly so I can keep throwing 3.5" hdds in a single case. I could switch to a nas but then my consumer backblaze account wouldn't work anymore

Yes I have stupid needs

yes

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-rack-...N82E16813140010

https://www.provantage.com/amd-100-...of~7AAMD3AE.htm

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Hey I said lowish power too please

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


WhyteRyce posted:

Hey I said lowish power too please

understood, into which slot should we install the pony?

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Paul MaudDib posted:

understood, into which slot should we install the pony?

In the 2.5G network port

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


WhyteRyce posted:

In the 2.5G network port

nay.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jul 21, 2020

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

https://www.techpowerup.com/270136/...3000g#g270136-1

So the official announcement is out

* this confirms that they really are only releasing these for OEMs
* the new bit of news is that they are also apparently releasing a new set of Athlons:

- Athlon Silver 3050GE, which is a 2-core part with SMT, and is rated at 35W

- Athlon Gold 3150G, which is a 4-core/4-thread (no SMT?) and is rated at 65W

- Athlon Gold 3150GE, which is also 4c/4t, but is clocked lower than the base G model, and is rated at 35W (to match the Athlon Silver 3050GE)

EDIT: Anandtech is saying that the Athlons are Zen+, not Zen 2.

and then there's this:

https://twitter.com/aschilling/stat...565401968058370

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jul 21, 2020

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

Who buys a prebuilt with an APU anyway? What's the point? Just slap the chip in, you're done.

It seems like odd timing to do such a small production run of zen+ parts with both desktop zen2 and big navi imminent. It feels like they already sold these chips to OEMs and they don't want to take up more fab time than they absolutely have to on it.

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Wedge Regret

This situation was actually less confusing when there were just rumors to go on. Excellent job on the communications, AMD.

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

Who buys a prebuilt with an APU anyway?

Corporate buyers with annual budget cycles. So OEMs churn out piles of low-end and/or SFF desktops which will be available next year as cheap refurbs on Newegg and Woot.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

Who buys a prebuilt with an APU anyway? What's the point? Just slap the chip in, you're done.

It seems like odd timing to do such a small production run of zen+ parts with both desktop zen2 and big navi imminent. It feels like they already sold these chips to OEMs and they don't want to take up more fab time than they absolutely have to on it.

lots of business machines are prebuilts with an "APU" - they might have an Intel CPU, with the basic UHD iGPU, and that's all you need so that you can push spreadsheets around without needing even the most basic dedicated GPU

we maybe just tend to think of AMD differently because their iGPUs are beefier and they brand them with the "APU" identity so you think it's for "gaming", but a Dell small form-factor with an Athlon 200GE would be a perfectly good office computer. The iGPU is going to be massively overspecced for MS Office and youtube videos, but AMD doesn't care

it also kinda makes sense if all the hosed manufacturing/logistics due to COVID is making AMD skittish about trying to fulfill consumer+OEM demand at the same time, and then they'd rather make sure OEMs get taken care of first because that market is something they might really want to challenge Intel on while they still have the upper-hand

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 21, 2020

EmpyreanFlux
Mar 1, 2013

The AUDACITY! The IMPUDENCE! The unabated NERVE!


Also this is probably their best chance. As much as an Athlon 200G/3000G would work perfectly fine for most office tasks it's nowhere near as compelling as Renoir. Even then I don't think AMD can just deliver, they have to over deliver or OEMs will just keep buying up Intel.

Honestly if Dell gave AMD a ironclad commitment to buy Renoir APUs, I don't blame them making Renoir OEM only.

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

That's unfortunate, for me the iGPU is basically the only reason to choose Intel and I was thinking one of those 4000Gs as my next system. I would of course have a powerful GPU, but with 3 monitors and a TV it's hard to find graphics card with suitable set of ports, an iGPU makes that problem quite a bit easier. It can also help with the Nvidia power safe bug. And last, sooner or later the system will be reused. Either as a home server, as a computer for relatives or just a spare system for myself. In all those cases a dedicated GPU is just unneeded hassle.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

I like to use the built in GPU for decoding my H.264 video camera feed leaving my big Nvidia to do other things. I do miss that.

EmpyreanFlux
Mar 1, 2013

The AUDACITY! The IMPUDENCE! The unabated NERVE!


Noting some interesting scaling on the handful of "reviews" available. Vega 8 seems to basically hit 95% of it's maximum performance around 2.3Ghz and DDR4 4000 CL18 memory, which is apparently achievable for almost all dies, so it's not even a golden requirement. Golden samples might hit 2.6Ghz apparently, and the IF will do 2300Mhz but best results for memory and IF are achieved by disabling the iGPU.

Seriously Renoir seems like the perfect budget upgrade path. Grab a 4700G, push the iGPU and memory when you don't have a dGPU (getting RX 460/GTX 950 performance). Switch the iGPU off and push the CPU when you have a dGPU, compromise on seemingly nothing during the entire process.

sauer kraut
Oct 2, 2004


EmpyreanFlux posted:

Seriously Renoir seems like the perfect budget upgrade path. Grab a 4700G, push the iGPU and memory when you don't have a dGPU (getting RX 460/GTX 950 performance). Switch the iGPU off and push the CPU when you have a dGPU, compromise on seemingly nothing during the entire process.

Surely that has nothing to do with AMDs reluctance to sell Renoir as singles
What the hell did they do to the IF to get (reported) memclocks like that?
If it also downclocks properly during idle, unlike desktop Zen2's IF burning 15-25W all the time, that'd make their entire stock sub 3950X obsolete a couple months too early.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

"You are the best poster... do not let anyone say otherwise."


Wait so this is still Zen 2? Didn't they say desktop Zen 3 on 7nm+ will be out this year too? What the hell is going on.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



AMD is moving to steal long-term OEM contract money from Intel.

That's what all this news is.

That's it.

There is no DIY or enthusiast news here.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Jul 22, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


mobby_6kl posted:

Wait so this is still Zen 2? Didn't they say desktop Zen 3 on 7nm+ will be out this year too? What the hell is going on.

The chips with onboard graphics have always been a generation behind the performance tier.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

mobby_6kl posted:

Wait so this is still Zen 2? Didn't they say desktop Zen 3 on 7nm+ will be out this year too? What the hell is going on.

Zen 1, or the 14nm process, without an iGPU, was labeled as Ryzen 1xxx

Zen 1 with an iGPU was labeled as Ryzen 2xxxG. For mobile processors, this was Ryzen 2xxxH or 2xxxU

___

Zen+ without an iGPU was labeled as Ryzen 2xxx

Zen+ with an iGPU was labeled as Ryzen 3xxxG. For mobile processors, this was Ryzen 3xxxH or 3xxxU

___

Zen 2, or the 7nm process, without an iGPU, was labeled as Ryzen 3xxx

Zen 2 with an iGPU, for mobile, was labeled as Ryzen 4xxxH or 4xxxU. This is the one that was released earlier this year.

Zen 2 with an iGPU, for desktop, was labeled as Ryzen 4xxxG. This is the one that was just officially yesterday (as being OEM-only)

___

Zen 3, or the improved 7nm process, on desktop, is still expected to be released later this year

___

Yes, it's confusing.

This has lead to issues where B550 motherboards, which are supposed to support Zen 2 and Zen 3, but not Zen 1 nor Zen+, have warnings on the AMD website about how Ryzen 3 3200G and Ryzen 3400G CPUs are not supported (because they are Zen+), even if they use the same naming convention as the Ryzen 5 3600 or the Ryzen 3 3300X (which are Zen 2).

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


Am I the only person waiting for am5 before updating my system?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

if coronavirus hadn't happened I probably wouldn't have upgraded because I'd be spending more time outdoors and spending money on something else, and I don't do/play anything really so demanding, but it did, so I did

Mr.Radar
Nov 5, 2005

You guys aren't going to believe this, but that guy is our games teacher.


Taco Defender

sauer kraut posted:

Surely that has nothing to do with AMDs reluctance to sell Renoir as singles
What the hell did they do to the IF to get (reported) memclocks like that?
If it also downclocks properly during idle, unlike desktop Zen2's IF burning 15-25W all the time, that'd make their entire stock sub 3950X obsolete a couple months too early.

It's because the APUs are monolithic designs with the memory controller on the same die as the CPU/GPU cores, so the IF never needs to leave the die.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Only dead doggos
follow the stream.



wargames posted:

Am I the only person waiting for am5 before updating my system?

If I had a notably better CPU than the old i5 I've got, I'd probably wait too.

I think it's just a lot of people who built systems 4-6 years ago feeling like they're about due for an upgrade for a bunch of reasons converging on the end of this year (Zen 3, RTX 30 series, next-gen consoles pushing hardware demands past the current gamer PC baseline). So Zen 3 feels like an impending big deal at the right time for a lot of people.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

"You are the best poster... do not let anyone say otherwise."


SwissArmyDruid posted:

AMD is moving to steal long-term OEM contract money from Intel.

That's what all this news is.

That's it.

There is no DIY or enthusiast news here.
More like steal the messed up naming convention from Intel. Jeez.


gradenko_2000 posted:

Zen 3, or the improved 7nm process, on desktop, is still expected to be released later this year

___

Yes, it's confusing.

This has lead to issues where B550 motherboards, which are supposed to support Zen 2 and Zen 3, but not Zen 1 nor Zen+, have warnings on the AMD website about how Ryzen 3 3200G and Ryzen 3400G CPUs are not supported (because they are Zen+), even if they use the same naming convention as the Ryzen 5 3600 or the Ryzen 3 3300X (which are Zen 2).
Thanks this makes it clearer, then I think what I;m waiting for is Zen 3 on 7nm+ which will be Ryzen 5000 or something?

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




Zen3 will be 4XXX on desktop systems. Zen4 will be 5XXX or a new branding scheme and be on AM5.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

mobby_6kl posted:

Thanks this makes it clearer, then I think what I;m waiting for is Zen 3 on 7nm+ which will be Ryzen 5000 or something?

Zen 3 on 7nm+, on desktop, without an iGPU, would be called something like a Ryzen 5 4600X. That is probably what you are waiting for, which AMD has said is still on-track to happen sometime before the end of 2020.

if they were to make a version of that with an iGPU, it would be called something like a Ryzen 5 5400G.

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Wedge Regret

mobby_6kl posted:

what I;m waiting for is Zen 3 on 7nm+

AMD (and TMSC) have backed off from calling the process for Zen 3 "7nm+".

They've shifted to calling it "improved 7nm", and have stressed that it's something less than a full new node, but haven't really explained what it means.

My guess it's that it means that TMSC and their suppliers have made some kind of tweaks to their existing 7nm process (contra a full production line replacement) and are seeing measurable-but-not-huge improvements in the resulting silicon. A further guess is that this work is where the XT processors came from. Moving into "wild-rear end guess" territory, it might also explain where the some of the surprising efficiency of the Renoir chips come from?

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


mdxi posted:

AMD (and TMSC) have backed off from calling the process for Zen 3 "7nm+".

They've shifted to calling it "improved 7nm", and have stressed that it's something less than a full new node, but haven't really explained what it means.

My guess it's that it means that TMSC and their suppliers have made some kind of tweaks to their existing 7nm process (contra a full production line replacement) and are seeing measurable-but-not-huge improvements in the resulting silicon. A further guess is that this work is where the XT processors came from. Moving into "wild-rear end guess" territory, it might also explain where the some of the surprising efficiency of the Renoir chips come from?

TSMC currently has three variants of their 7nm process:
- N7 (Rome/Matisse, Renoir)
- N7P (Navi) optimized N7, same design rules
- N7+ uses EUV litho, design not compatible with N7(P)

AMD edited their roadmaps because they were using 7nm+ as a generic improved node instead of TSMC's N7+ specifically.

ConanTheLibrarian
Aug 13, 2004


dis buch is late

Fallen Rib

Yeah it was reported a year ago that N7P would offer a 7% improvement over vanilla N7. Zen 3 will likely have a pretty mediocre clock bump versus the current XT chips. The main gains will be in IPC.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



AMD had better make hay, Intel just announced that 7nm would be delayed.

Again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-delayed-again

SourKraut
Nov 20, 2005

POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION


SwissArmyDruid posted:

AMD had better make hay, Intel just announced that 7nm would be delayed.

Again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-delayed-again

Some where in the world right now, Tim Cook just smiled.

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Malcolm XML
Aug 8, 2009

I always knew it would end like this.


SwissArmyDruid posted:

AMD had better make hay, Intel just announced that 7nm would be delayed.

Again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-delayed-again

Lmao those amd options continuing to kick rear end

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