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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Some Goon posted:

Aren't the voltage settings for XMP baked into the module along with the timings anyways?

The voltages for the memory stick itself are. The memory has no idea what VSOC or VCCSA/VCCIO the chip would need to run in order for the memory controller on the CPU to be stable (and in fact that varies between samples, between generations, between motherboards, and different brands of chips have different settings entirely that need to be tweaked).

All of the memory-controller-side stuff is delegated to the motherboard itself to decide what it needs to do, and a lot of them prefer "just do what it takes to make it work with one click" vs an option that might be safer but not work 20% of the time. Because then they're bothering the support team, or returning the board and getting one from their competitor, who did do that, and telling their friends "Asrock sucks, XMP didn't work right but on MSI it just came right up".

Especially on the faster stuff. Like obviously you don't need 1.4V VSOC/VCCSA to run 3000 or 3200 but at 3866 or 4000+ yeah motherboards can get more aggressive about it. Source: Buildzoid video previously linked, but really it should be evident to anyone after a modicum of thought that a memory controller rated to run at 2933 isn't going to run 3866 without some additional voltage being quietly applied behind the scenes.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Feb 18, 2021

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Xaris
Jul 25, 2006

Jacking Out; Jacking In



Khorne posted:

I got a 5950x for valentine's day and replaced my 3900x with it. I've had some stability issues so far. Random reboots.

I think it's related to vsoc. With the 3900x my RAM settings were stable at 1.05v vsoc. With the 5950x they seemed stable then I started randomly rebooting. I set vsoc to 1.08 and might try 1.10 (then 1.0 if that fails). So far it seems stable at 1.08, but now I am paranoid. Probably going to run memtest overnight tonight & pray it's the RAM OC settings causing it.

Zen3 is hungrier on the memory controller than Zen2. Most people have had to bump it up to eliminate WHEA errors, so that's normal. I'm personally running 1.1275V on VSOC but around 900mV on VDDG. I honestly probably could get away with 1.1V but I just wanted a tiny sliver of margin just incase. You can see the range of VSOC people are running but usually around 1.1V or slightly above that. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dsu9K1Nt_7apHBdiy0MWVPcYjf6nOlr9CtkkfN78tSo/edit#gid=321590489

exquisite tea posted:

Haven't had any problems clicking the XMP button across a 2700x and 5600x on a x470 motherboard, although one specific game (AC Valhalla) did have a whole bunch of crashes until I set the RAM profile back to its default.
that's mostly the rub right there. it will "probably" work 90% of the time out of the box for most people until One Specific Game or Application crashes or occasional WHEA happens and then people go bluh bluh whaaa why no it cant be the ram it was working fine on my previous cpu and oops yeah that was the problem. Like yeah it'll work, mostly, and probably. but mostly and probably qualifiers aren't good enough imo. in particular Zen3 is just a hairline hungrier on memory controlling voltages than Zen1/2 and XMP doesn't differentiate there, so lots of people who are running into instability problems with Some Specific Cases and it just isn't quite cutting it; and varies so much with mobo/ram/cpu configuration that it's not like mobos are particularly smart about setting it.

Xaris fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Feb 18, 2021

triple sulk
Sep 17, 2014





Xaris posted:

Zen3 is hungrier on the memory controller than Zen2. Most people have had to bump it up to eliminate WHEA errors, so that's normal. I'm personally running 1.1275V on VSOC but around 900mV on VDDG. I honestly probably could get away with 1.1V but I just wanted a tiny sliver of margin just incase. You can see the range of VSOC people are running but usually around 1.1V or slightly above that. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dsu9K1Nt_7apHBdiy0MWVPcYjf6nOlr9CtkkfN78tSo/edit#gid=321590489

that's mostly the rub right there. it will "probably" work 90% of the time out of the box for most people until One Specific Game or Application crashes or occasional WHEA happens and then people go bluh bluh whaaa why no it cant be the ram it was working fine on my previous cpu and oops yeah that was the problem. Like yeah it'll work, mostly, and probably. but mostly and probably qualifiers aren't good enough imo. in particular Zen3 is just a hairline hungrier on memory controlling voltages than Zen1/2 and XMP doesn't differentiate there, so lots of people who are running into instability problems with Some Specific Cases and it just isn't quite cutting it; and varies so much with mobo/ram/cpu configuration that it's not like mobos are particularly smart about setting it.

This could be my issue because it seems completely stable at 2133 with DOCP off in the BIOS, but was rebooting a bunch with DOCP on (stock) unless I disabled the Core Performance Boost. I didn't really have any problems with 3200 or 3400 on the 3900x and it just wouldn't post if I went higher. It's some old pre-Tridentz Neo b-die that cost way too much when I bought it. For as much hassle as it is, I'm wondering why I don't just return the 5950x and downgrade to the 5800x. At that point I might just relegate the machine to whatever few PC games I'd ever play because the Mac I have is more easily meeting some of my work related needs right now and I don't feel like using Linux full time. Either way, it's stupid to me that this is still somehow a problem.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Stanley Pain posted:

Do you have any numbers to back any of that up? Like any proof whatsoever?

If this was to me like... what part? Zen liking memory speed, or board OEMs setting wacky voltages with annoying auto-OC features?

E: looks like others have it covered but lemme know if you want any others, lots of links out there for this stuff

Cygni fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Feb 18, 2021

Kilson
Jan 16, 2003

I EAT LITTLE CHILDREN FOR BREAKFAST !!11!!1!!!!111!

triple sulk posted:

For as much hassle as it is, I'm wondering why I don't just return the 5950x and downgrade to the 5800x.

If you're gonna do that, I would buy it instead. Been looking forever for one of those, and my current order just got pushed back another month

Khorne
May 1, 2002

Goonstone Champ x2

Xaris posted:

Zen3 is hungrier on the memory controller than Zen2. Most people have had to bump it up to eliminate WHEA errors, so that's normal. I'm personally running 1.1275V on VSOC but around 900mV on VDDG. I honestly probably could get away with 1.1V but I just wanted a tiny sliver of margin just incase. You can see the range of VSOC people are running but usually around 1.1V or slightly above that.
I haven't adjusted VDDG etc, but at 1.125 VSOC I appear stable now. At least, for ~36 hours I have been stable. 1.125V peaks at ~1.094V with my motherboard. Adjusting VDDG is my next step if there's instability, but I also feel comfortable increasing vsoc slightly from where it's at still.

Khorne fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Feb 18, 2021

Stanley Pain
Jun 16, 2001

Bit. Trip. RIP.


Cygni posted:

If this was to me like... what part? Zen liking memory speed, or board OEMs setting wacky voltages with annoying auto-OC features?

E: looks like others have it covered but lemme know if you want any others, lots of links out there for this stuff

Yeah I'd like some links. The motherboard/CPU frying ones. I haven't heard of anyone frying anything just by running XMP settings.

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?


I lucked into a 5800x on AMD.com last week. I'm coming from a decade on Intel and have little knowledge about overclocking on modern AMD platforms. I'll be using a B550-F with gskill 3600 CL16 b-die.

Is there a preferred overall guide to this anywhere? Search results are a little overwhelming. What role does Ryzen Master play? Basically what do I do if I want to get some "free" >stock CPU performance and not have to spend a lot of time tweaking? (My level of overclocking on Intel was setting XMP, vcore offset, and changing the core multiplier if that gives you an idea of my laziness.)

I'm willing to set memory timings manually to avoid stability/longevity issues, but what specific values have to be set to more safely match what XMP would do?

Thanks for any info

Stanley Pain
Jun 16, 2001

Bit. Trip. RIP.


Set XMP, and forget about it.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

Stanley Pain posted:

Set XMP, and forget about it.

That and I find that increasing the LLC one notch above 'normal' seems to help the boost clocks a bit on the ryzen 2's I've tried it on. Can't hurt.

Stanley Pain
Jun 16, 2001

Bit. Trip. RIP.


redeyes posted:

That and I find that increasing the LLC one notch above 'normal' seems to help the boost clocks a bit on the ryzen 2's I've tried it on. Can't hurt.

If you have a board that has a large vdroop, sure (I think Asrock has some of the worst).

For 5000 series if you really want to get into tweaking. Set PBO to advanced. Set the boost to 200MHz, set curve optimizer to all cores -5, or -10 and then forget about it.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Stanley Pain posted:

Yeah I'd like some links. The motherboard/CPU frying ones. I haven't heard of anyone frying anything just by running XMP settings.

There are a lot out there, and I've seen it from personal experience a ton. I will just reuse the one Paul posted earlier:

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3251-raven-ridge-soc-voltage-guidelines-how-to-kill-cpu-with-safe-voltage

I just goofed with it on the board I'm running right now for example (an ASUS Intel board, but the issue is CPU vendor agnostic), and turning XMP on automatically dials in a bus CPU overclock, and turns on "BCLK aware voltage" settings, which ASUS is going to use to overvolt based on their own table. It also turns on MCE and about 30 other things that user may or may not actually want, and it may be doing some things not exposed to the user at all, like GN saw. Thats the problem.

As for the voltages on this board, ASUS already runs all the rails a little hotter than I'm comfortable with, tbh. I didn't see the BCLK voltage setting hit the VCCIO/System Agent voltage on this particular board, but I know I absolutely have on some others I've played with. I want to say Giga and MSI were the worst offenders, but thats probably just a personal anecdote. They are all playing the game.

As for whether thats gonna kill your CPU, well, I've certainly seen some auto-applied OCs in reviews and such with voltages that I sure as poo poo wouldn't run 24/7. I dunno if you can attribute the current drama about dying Zen/+ CPUs to that specifically in all cases, but I personally think there likely is some relation. The fact that nobody has been able / willing to design a multi-year test with a big enough CPU sample size to explicitly test this with gaming hardware is part of the reason they still do it. The Big Iron folks have played with all this, and there is a reason it isnt on the server products.

So yeah, thats not to say I think people should run 2133mhz on their RAM. But I would manually set the speeds, or at least double check the voltages before you set and forget. Like I said, I personally haven't seen a BIOS that won't let me manually override the VCCIO/SOC/System Agent (however they want to label it), but if GN's tests are right, the board may be jacking voltages up regardless. Still worth setting to me, just not as easy.

Stanley Pain
Jun 16, 2001

Bit. Trip. RIP.


Thanks for the link. Good info there. Made me double check all my voltages

Thankfully the x570 Taichi I have doesn't do anything too crazy.

B-1.1.7 Bomber
Feb 19, 2005

THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR


Buglord

Along the lines of what Cygni has actually experienced, I remember reading commentary about this related to ASUS boards as well, a few years ago. I can't recall if it was ASUS in particular, or if ASUS was just the example being used, but the poster was shocked to discover how much current was really blasting through his RAM. Some seemingly unrelated settings on the board had boosted RAM voltage with no clear indication it had been adjusted. And we're talking more than just a teeny-tiny bit of power nudging involved. Imagine a user "throwing a little extra juice just to be sure" on top of this, and you can see how a problem might develop without realizing it.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005

Get the fuck in your cage and shut the fuck up, you stupid fucking Mexicans. Your voice doesn't fucking matter unless you support OUR rapist.

OBAMA DID NOTHING WRONG


the gamernexus article is a lot more nuanced than described

quote:

Over time, a degrading IMC may require more voltage to keep the same memory/GFX frequencies, or it might just lose that frequency altogether, forcing the user to downclock. Outright failure doesn’t happen at voltages close to reason, but will instead manifest over a period of months.

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004









I checked amd's store a couple times today including just now and the 5800x has been in stock all drat day, maybe things are looking up in cpu land at least

Kilson
Jan 16, 2003

I EAT LITTLE CHILDREN FOR BREAKFAST !!11!!1!!!!111!

I've seen a ton of 5600 and 5800 in stock lately, but 5900/5950 are still impossible to find. Are they just not producing the high end parts? Is it related to binning? Or is there just that much demand?

Ihmemies
Oct 6, 2012



https://www.mindfactory.de has good stock of 5900x in EU. You can buy it immediately for 669€. They had also some 5950x but it is not currently available. 5800X and 5600X are both available with 5900X.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Binning and the fact that they use 2 chiplets might be a factor somewhat but mostly huge demand, I see shipments come of 5950Xs and especially 5900Xs at my local Microcenter fairly frequently now and they never last long. The 5600X and 5800X have been in stock there continuously for over two weeks now.

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Kilson posted:

I've seen a ton of 5600 and 5800 in stock lately, but 5900/5950 are still impossible to find. Are they just not producing the high end parts? Is it related to binning?

A 5900 uses two 6-core CCDs, which could just as easily be made into two 5600s. Same relationship for 5950 and 5800.

It's mostly, probably, just the math of getting out of a crunch.

quote:

Or is there just that much demand?
But also there's this. Thanks to AMD marketing a 16-core approximately-workstation CPU as "the world's fastest gaming CPU", it's the chip that a poo poo-ton of people MUST HAVE, despite the ridiculous price (and my opinion that it probably isn't really what you want to be building a gaming PC around).

r/AMD is full of people who want 59X0 chips, and others who are complaining about having months-old backorders of them. And then there's the people who have them but are freaked out by how hot they run, and/or complain about how MAH BOOSTZ aren't hitting 4.8GHz. On a 16-core CPU.

mdxi fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Feb 19, 2021

Palladium
May 8, 2012


B-1.1.7 Bomber posted:

Along the lines of what Cygni has actually experienced, I remember reading commentary about this related to ASUS boards as well, a few years ago. I can't recall if it was ASUS in particular, or if ASUS was just the example being used, but the poster was shocked to discover how much current was really blasting through his RAM. Some seemingly unrelated settings on the board had boosted RAM voltage with no clear indication it had been adjusted. And we're talking more than just a teeny-tiny bit of power nudging involved. Imagine a user "throwing a little extra juice just to be sure" on top of this, and you can see how a problem might develop without realizing it.

Long story short: OCing isn't a simple straightforward one-button thing, but vendors pretend it is as a feature to sell boards to people who don't know any better.

Shemp the Stooge
Feb 23, 2001


mdxi posted:

r/AMD is full of people who want 59X0 chips, and others who are complaining about having months-old backorders of them.

I have an Amazon Japan order from December 23rd for a 5900x. It briefly was given a ship date but amazon missed it and it's back to we will email you when we know.

Truga
May 4, 2014




Lipstick Apathy

my completely baseless guess is that most chiplets that are good enough to go on a 5900/5950 are also good enough to go onto an epyc, and epycs have bigger profit margins so they're trying to build a launch stock for that

do we even have a release date for zen3 epyc yet

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Truga posted:

do we even have a release date for zen3 epyc yet

end of the quarter supposedly, we should probably start hearing anytime now about a launch event getting scheduled

there is of course limited production going on for hyperscalers already, the public launch is just for the public, if you are willing to write a check for a million processors you go to the front of the line. So I'm sure a fairly significant number of 5900X/5950X tier chiplets are going there.

triple sulk
Sep 17, 2014





I set my RAM to DOCP again yesterday and it seems that the machine must have hard rebooted again at some point overnight. I only really tried because I think I installed the chipset drivers from AMD's site rather than ASUS's in the interim before and wanted to see if anything happened. I don't really want to spend $200-250 on new RAM only to have it do the same thing since it could very well just be the CPU having issues. Are the 5800x chips having these problems? I don't remember reading much other than occasional AMD forum post talking about the 5600x instead.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




I think a lot of people jumped on the 3600 and 3700X and probably don't see a Zen 3 with the same number of cores- even if the per-core performance is a bit better- as enough of an upgrade. Nobody's jumping from a 3600 to a 5600 but they might go 3600 -> 5900.

E: quoted the wrong post

FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 19, 2021

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


mdxi posted:

A 5900 uses two 6-core CCDs, which could just as easily be made into two 5600s. Same relationship for 5950 and 5800.

It's mostly, probably, just the math of getting out of a crunch.

But also there's this. Thanks to AMD marketing a 16-core approximately-workstation CPU as "the world's fastest gaming CPU", it's the chip that a poo poo-ton of people MUST HAVE, despite the ridiculous price (and my opinion that it probably isn't really what you want to be building a gaming PC around).

r/AMD is full of people who want 59X0 chips, and others who are complaining about having months-old backorders of them. And then there's the people who have them but are freaked out by how hot they run, and/or complain about how MAH BOOSTZ aren't hitting 4.8GHz. On a 16-core CPU.

Yeah it's wild that despite the very attractive pricing of the 5900X that they're still getting all of these upsells to the 5950X from pure gamers. If you're AMD you might as well make a 24-core Zen 4 chip on AM5 for $1200+ and see how far you can push this trend lol.

triple sulk
Sep 17, 2014





For what it's worth, I was complaining about overclocking the RAM to levels that aren't even remotely crazy causing random reboots because the boosts are fine.

Quaint Quail Quilt
Jun 19, 2006



Palladium posted:

Long story short: OCing isn't a simple straightforward one-button thing, but vendors pretend it is as a feature to sell boards to people who don't know any better.
Sure it is, for the CPU and GPU.

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/clocktuner-2-for-ryzen-(ctr)-guide,1.html
This is the guy behind the DRAM calculator and Nvidia makes a mild Auto OC easy.

You still need to have a robust board to eke out your 50-200+ mhz. Ram can go high, but I haven't figured it out and use XMP/D.O.C.P for my sticks rating

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!



Exciting Lemon

AMD seeks help to solve the USB disconnection issue on 500-series motherboards

Glad they're finally acknowledging this, I've wasted a lot of time with Gigabyte support and manual troubleshooting on this bullshit. I got things mostly stable by locking PCIE to v3 instead of v4, but only mostly.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

Definitely don't have a disconnection issue on my Asus WS x570 Pro ACE motherboard but I don't have a VR headset to help test. I was thinking of getting one anyway but I'm not sure where to start to help diagnose.

B-1.1.7 Bomber
Feb 19, 2005

THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR


Buglord

triple sulk posted:

For what it's worth, I was complaining about overclocking the RAM to levels that aren't even remotely crazy causing random reboots because the boosts are fine.

sorry to hear that your computer now doubles as an electric chair

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN


necrobobsledder posted:

Definitely don't have a disconnection issue on my Asus WS x570 Pro ACE motherboard but I don't have a VR headset to help test. I was thinking of getting one anyway but I'm not sure where to start to help diagnose.

I'm unaware of any disconnection issues on my Gigabyte Aorus Elite x570, either. I also don't have a VR headset. The only times I can think of when I have lost connection were due to OS updates going a little sideways, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't specific to this machine.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

CaptainSarcastic posted:

I'm unaware of any disconnection issues on my Gigabyte Aorus Elite x570, either. I also don't have a VR headset. The only times I can think of when I have lost connection were due to OS updates going a little sideways, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't specific to this machine.

Same here, zero usb issues Gigabyte Aorus x570 Pro Wifi.

lurksion
Mar 21, 2013


Is ASRock unusually slow with their BIOS updates? I'm somewhat annoyed that they haven't had a BIOS update for their B550 mobos since early Dec (and that was to 1.1.0.0; not even the major 1.1.8.0 update that other mobo manufacturers were putting out).

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


lurksion posted:

Is ASRock unusually slow with their BIOS updates? I'm somewhat annoyed that they haven't had a BIOS update for their B550 mobos since early Dec (and that was to 1.1.0.0; not even the major 1.1.8.0 update that other mobo manufacturers were putting out).

Yeah I don't know what's going on with their B550, they've had 1.2.0.0 for X570 for almost a month now.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


i've been looking at the Asrock Rack X470D4U, it was on sale on Amazon for $220 a couple days ago, but they still haven't updated it for 5000 series CPUs yet...

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Dang. My asus x470 board has had 1.2 since the beginning of the month.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



priznat posted:

Bit of a techie question - does anyone know what material (FR4/Nelco/Megtron6) is usually used for the Gen4 motherboards like the x570 or Rome/Milan?

Feel like its still going to be 370HR or similar -- Rogers / Nelco / Megtron I think are too expensive for consumer stuff. Retimers, offsetting the weave (zig-zagging) are probably the norm for the consumer stuff; the big backplanes / TCA stuff I imagine can afford to spend more and not worry about it.

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

movax posted:

Feel like its still going to be 370HR or similar -- Rogers / Nelco / Megtron I think are too expensive for consumer stuff. Retimers, offsetting the weave (zig-zagging) are probably the norm for the consumer stuff; the big backplanes / TCA stuff I imagine can afford to spend more and not worry about it.

This makes sense! I should ask the apps guys who deal with customers what they use for their servers, but for consumer some kind of FR-4 like that will probably be de rigueur. I was reading the AMD Rome/Milan design app notes and they are extremely vague when it comes to acceptable channel loss, it might be in a different document I didn't get a hold of.

There is a real dearth of gen4 retimers still, I think Astera and Parade are about it. Gen5 is probably where they will become absolutely necessary!

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