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FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




Wonder when we'll see the first PCIe gen 4 cards that aren't graphics or SSDs. USB 4 cards maybe?

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SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



I got some bad news for you, dude. PCIe 4 was never about improving speeds to devices, it was about making what devices you do have use fewer lanes, so you can cram in more devices. The only place it means anything is the datacenter.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


I find it hard to care for the new interfaces hotness, when virtually all of my real I/O needs are satisfied on my 1GBps FTTH.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Additionally it simplifies motherboards by reducing the number of traces needed for the same number of devices. Hopefully helps keep cost down.

Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007

I've made a huge mistake.


SwissArmyDruid posted:

I got some bad news for you, dude. PCIe 4 was never about improving speeds to devices, it was about making what devices you do have use fewer lanes, so you can cram in more devices. The only place it means anything is the datacenter.
Or the small minority of desktop users who want to use more than just their gpu slot. At some point I want to build a linux box which gpu, 10 gig networking, a hba card and still have a spare slot for a non-demanding tv card. All of a sudden the choice of motherboard drops. It'd be a lot easier if I could just drop everything in to a gen 4 x1 slot. However I get the impression for card manufacturers older generation with more lanes is cheaper to make than newest generation with less lanes.

I suspect for most desktop users, other than for the GPU, the benefit will be more nvme drive slots. Given there's marginal real-world gain from NVME over SSD anyway, you might as well do two Gen4 x2 over a single Gen4 x4 and still offer the same single drive performance as Gen3 x4.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




SwissArmyDruid posted:

I got some bad news for you, dude. PCIe 4 was never about improving speeds to devices, it was about making what devices you do have use fewer lanes, so you can cram in more devices. The only place it means anything is the datacenter.

absofucking loutley

source--I specced highend datacollection servers for the f35 program for years and all during the Skylake days clients were screaming, "we need Threadripper" and the company President was just like, "nope"

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars




Plaster Town Cop

Crunchy Black posted:

absofucking loutley

source--I specced highend datacollection servers for the f35 program for years and all during the Skylake days clients were screaming, "we need Threadripper" and the company President was just like, "nope"

i love golf-oriented purchasing so much

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

FuturePastNow posted:

Wonder when we'll see the first PCIe gen 4 cards that aren't graphics or SSDs. USB 4 cards maybe?

There are super duper 100GbE+ NICs out in Gen4 but for consumers not many things past gpu and ssds anytime soon I reckon.

ConanTheLibrarian
Aug 13, 2004


dis buch is late

Fallen Rib

BurritoJustice posted:

What does unbalanced mean in this context?

The short answer is it makes life hard for the memory controller. Server manufacturers (and AMD themselves) issue guidance on what arrangements of DIMMs are balanced and unbalanced. Check this out as an example https://lenovopress.com/lp1268.pdf

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




priznat posted:

There are super duper 100GbE+ NICs out in Gen4 but for consumers not many things past gpu and ssds anytime soon I reckon.

re the above, and without giving too much away, F35 RADARs, Stingrays and the like can absolutely saturate an x16Gen4 ingress port if we let them. Intel's biggest problem at the moment is having the storage egress and the ingress on the same CPU, has been for 5 years+. Cause once you have to go across the NUMA link, quick as it is, you're introducing latency that is absolutely unacceptable to those use cases.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Crunchy Black posted:

re the above, and without giving too much away, F35 RADARs, Stingrays and the like can absolutely saturate an x16Gen4 ingress port if we let them.

drat so there really is nothing at all of any value that can saturate it then, drat.

Noobles
Aug 17, 2004



Just a heads up for those of you dealing with USB disconnect issues, looks like a lot of the board makers are rolling out AGESA 1.2.0.2 today. Thereís already a new BIOS for my ASRock board listed, going to try that tonight and hope it helps.

There was already a beta BIOS for a while that supposedly had the fix baked in but I donít like the words beta and BIOS in the same sentence so I held off.

Noobles fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Apr 22, 2021

BrainDance
May 8, 2007

Disco all night long!


You probably made the right call skipping the beta bios. I have the USB disconnect problem with my x570 taichi, the beta bios solved it but introduced random hard reboots. Rolling back fixed it.

If it's stable now then cool.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Crunchy Black posted:

re the above, and without giving too much away, F35 RADARs, Stingrays and the like can absolutely saturate an x16Gen4 ingress port if we let them. Intel's biggest problem at the moment is having the storage egress and the ingress on the same CPU, has been for 5 years+. Cause once you have to go across the NUMA link, quick as it is, you're introducing latency that is absolutely unacceptable to those use cases.

I can imagine in some pretty big SDR applications, strapping a giant UltraScale to a host machine can pretty easily eat the bandwidth with raw I/Q samples if you let it.

It'll take forever, but w/ Gen4, you could get some pretty compact / neat hardware that would be great for the home market -- x2 Gen 4 NVMe drives would be plenty for folks. Only saves you 4 balls in the end, but considering the amount of lanes on some platforms... you could fit a lot more of them.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




"Use fewer lanes for the same stuff" also works for things like 4k capture cards, 10g network cards, USB-C cards with 10g/20g ports

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



FuturePastNow posted:

"Use fewer lanes for the same stuff" also works for things like 4k capture cards, 10g network cards, USB-C cards with 10g/20g ports

The problem is that despite the increased number of lanes, there typically are not more ways to tap it, on a consumer board, just the usual one-or-two full length slots, with a sprinkling of 1x.

Most often, the freed-up lanes take the form of additional M.2, instead of, say, a greater quantity of far-more versatile full-length PCIe.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Apr 23, 2021

Inept
Jul 8, 2003

3 olives has a payment plan with his phone company for his cell phone

SwissArmyDruid posted:

The problem is that despite the increased number of lanes, there typically are not more ways to tap it, on a consumer board, just the usual one-or-two full length slots, with a sprinkling of 1x.

Most often, the freed-up lanes take the form of additional M.2, instead of, say, a greater quantity of far-more versatile full-length PCIe.

The B550 Taichi, for example, gives 3 full slots that can be split as 4.0/x8, 4.0x8, 3.0x4

If you need more than that then you should be getting a HEDT platfrom

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




I realize SFF systems are growing in popularity but I bet the typical gamer rig is still an ATX mid-tower and is going to have 3-4 x1 slots.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Inept posted:

The B550 Taichi, for example, gives 3 full slots that can be split as 4.0/x8, 4.0x8, 3.0x4

If you need more than that then you should be getting a HEDT platfrom

And the fact that it's ASRock is about all that needs to be said.

FuturePastNow posted:

I realize SFF systems are growing in popularity but I bet the typical gamer rig is still an ATX mid-tower and is going to have 3-4 x1 slots.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


FuturePastNow posted:

I realize SFF systems are growing in popularity but I bet the typical gamer rig is still an ATX mid-tower and is going to have 3-4 x1 slots.

What do people have in those? Not trying to troll, but I havenít had a sound card in ages.

Inept
Jul 8, 2003

3 olives has a payment plan with his phone company for his cell phone

SwissArmyDruid posted:

And the fact that it's ASRock is about all that needs to be said.

afaik the other mobo makers have an offering like that as well for ~$250. It's not cheap but needing more than 2 full slots is pretty niche.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



Twerk from Home posted:

What do people have in those? Not trying to troll, but I havenít had a sound card in ages.

I have a wifi/Bluetooth card in one of mine.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Some people have a wifi card, some have a capture card, some have a NIC, some sicko freaks even have a sound card... but the vast majority of people have nothing, and most of the board makers know it. When you look at the bifurcation settings and slot spacing on a lot of boards, itís pretty clear that those 1x slots are never intended to be used (except by miners!)

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Cygni posted:

some sicko freaks even have a sound card

sorry if this is off-topic, but what happened that made it so that sound cards were a thing that just came with motherboards instead of needing a separate card for? I'm guessing audio processing chips (sic?) just became small enough?

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I sorta remember it being a confluence of Creative putting Aureal out of business and killing 3D audio, Creatives drivers becoming bloated and unusable, and ďsufficientĒ audio implementations of AC97 getting integrated into south bridges setting the stage for nobody bothering anymore. I guess you could say it was really just CPUs getting powerful enough to do audio in software as a side project, really.

Multiplayer games and voice chat kinda killed the 4.1/5.1 PC speaker setups too, cause everybody went to headphones.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Twerk from Home posted:

What do people have in those? Not trying to troll, but I havenít had a sound card in ages.
Well, I actually do have a sound card. That and a 40GBit network card, that is PCIe 8x, to my NAS.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Inept posted:

The B550 Taichi, for example, gives 3 full slots that can be split as 4.0/x8, 4.0x8, 3.0x4

If you need more than that then you should be getting a HEDT platfrom

"if you need more than 3 slots you should be getting a HEDT platform" is a directly contradictory idea to "PCIe 4.0 is great because you can get more stuff in fewer lanes". it doesn't matter if it takes fewer lanes if you only get 3 slots anyway, you aren't going to get more devices in your system.

also realistically because of the way the slots are placed and the way GPUs are growing it's getting increasingly difficult to actually use those slots. yeah OK so you get your second x8 slot in slot number 4, so that means your 3-slot GPU presses right up against it and gets its airflow choked if you actually try to put something there. Unless it's a low-profile card you basically get one device in a mid-tower and two in a full tower, that's really poo poo in terms of expansion.

I have two of those little x1 slots on my motherboard, one is covered by my CPU cooler (because it's actually behind the first x16 gpu slot) and the other is in slot #3 so it's overhung by a 3-slot GPU, meaning with a 3-slot GPU I basically just get the 3 main slots and my M.2 slots.

it's also really unfortunate the way AMD has gotten so out of control with HEDT pricing. Like it used to be $200 motherboard, $350 processor, and you could run more slots. Now the cheapest thing AMD offers is a $1400 processor and motherboards are running $500-600 ish apart from a couple cheapie boards around $400. Epyc is actually literally cheaper at this point, it has higher-specced boards for the cost (a board with 7x full 4.0x16 PCIe slots kind of puts the lie to the idea that HEDT boards are somehow magically expensive because of "routing costs") and extends the low end down to 8-core processors costing as little as $450 that AMD simply won't sell you when they're branded as Threadripper.

now the "entry level" HEDT board+CPU is literally more expensive than a whole HEDT pc was 4 years ago, it's a great evolution from AMD, and god only knows what Zen3 threadripper prices are going to be like

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Twerk from Home posted:

What do people have in those? Not trying to troll, but I havenít had a sound card in ages.

All my desktops use wired internet, but when I do builds for people with mobos I've swapped out because of an upgrade, I add a wifi card.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Twerk from Home posted:

What do people have in those? Not trying to troll, but I havenít had a sound card in ages.

I have a wifi card.

Cards that add m.2 slots or SATA ports are also a thing that could be useful outside of specialized use cases

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Paul MaudDib posted:

also realistically because of the way the slots are placed and the way GPUs are growing it's getting increasingly difficult to actually use those slots. yeah OK so you get your second x8 slot in slot number 4, so that means your 3-slot GPU presses right up against it and gets its airflow choked if you actually try to put something there. Unless it's a low-profile card you basically get one device in a mid-tower and two in a full tower, that's really poo poo in terms of expansion.

I think the wisdom here is that three-slot coolers are an exception and not becoming the rule. I know I draw a hard line on graphics cards that use more than dual slot.

To me, having an x8/x8 bifurcated motherboard, like paying $100 more for the B550-E than the visually similar B550-F, is about sticking an m.2 host card in there. I want to just have chiplet board storage forever. no more cable management, no more case mounts.

Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007

I've made a huge mistake.


So in the UK Scan have had 5950x for sale for a couple of days (and they've now put a price against the 5900x so much be expecting stock) and Currys have 5900x for sale since yesterday. Prices seem to be falling down back towards RRP. It definitely feels like the situation is sorting itself out.

I want to replace my 1700 with a 5900 but not at the £630 Currys are asking. The Scan price is now listed as £580 which is at fairly close to the RRP.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


gradenko_2000 posted:

sorry if this is off-topic, but what happened that made it so that sound cards were a thing that just came with motherboards instead of needing a separate card for? I'm guessing audio processing chips (sic?) just became small enough?

My "sound cards" (really just DACs) are connected via USB or optical nowadays. The latency probably isn't as good as through the old PCIe connectors, but it's good enough such that even when my mic is connected via a USB audio interface, I can hear my voice back through my headphones without the latency that would make it difficult to speak while hearing my own voice.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Paul MaudDib posted:

Epyc is actually literally cheaper at this point, it has higher-specced boards for the cost (a board with 7x full 4.0x16 PCIe slots kind of puts the lie to the idea that HEDT boards are somehow magically expensive because of "routing costs") and extends the low end down to 8-core processors costing as little as $450 that AMD simply won't sell you when they're branded as Threadripper.

is there even such a thing as an ATX-sized motherboard that's socketed for Epyc Milan that you could drop into a tower case and use as a personal computer?

(I fully expect getting linked to an Asrock-Rack page as I ask this)

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



gradenko_2000 posted:

is there even such a thing as an ATX-sized motherboard that's socketed for Epyc Milan that you could drop into a tower case and use as a personal computer?

(I fully expect getting linked to an Asrock-Rack page as I ask this)

While EEB/CEB is more common there are plenty of ATX options. Asrockís wacky product is an ITX epyc board!

ATX: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=ROMED8-2T#Specifications
ITX: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=ROMED4ID-2T#Specifications

ok itís actually slightly larger than ITX but whatever

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

Craptacular! posted:

I think the wisdom here is that three-slot coolers are an exception and not becoming the rule. I know I draw a hard line on graphics cards that use more than dual slot.
This is the opposite of what board partners have been doing since Maxwell cards though. Outside of reference models the majority of high end cards are somewhere in the 2.5- to 2.7-slot range and have been since the RTX 2000 days, especially the higher tier SKUs where board partners actually bother to optimize heatsinks and fans.

In the kind of PC Paul is describing, GPUs blocking >2 slots are the rule already.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


orcane posted:

Outside of reference models the majority of high end cards are somewhere in the 2.5- to 2.7-slot range and have been since the RTX 2000 days

I mean I don't buy the high end tier cooler (ROG, FTW, whatever) in the product stack anyway. I go for lower priced, lower binned, lower clocked chips on the product stack and those usually come with two slot coolers and as a bonus I'm not paying the marketing hype fee to be a certified member of the Razer Republic Army of ESports Champions. Even in such a situation though, just stick your graphics card in the lower slot? If you have a high end case such as an O11 (or more likely O11 XL) that puts the power supply up and away and out of view, the "floor" of the motherboard chamber is open to intake fans that will direct air straight into it.

The real enemy here is power supply shrouds.

Ihmemies
Oct 6, 2012



I use a Pcie to m.2 adapter card because my ssd is 11cm long, while my motherboard supports only lengths up to 8cm.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


gradenko_2000 posted:

is there even such a thing as an ATX-sized motherboard that's socketed for Epyc Milan that you could drop into a tower case and use as a personal computer?

(I fully expect getting linked to an Asrock-Rack page as I ask this)

heh yeah I've had eyes on that Asrock Rack ROMED8-2T for a while now. $550 for 7x PCIe 4.0x16 slots, dual 10gbe, and a ton of other IO. That would make a hell of a home server, and if you stick to the single-socket chips (-P suffix) the prices actually aren't bad (although they've gotten worse along with everything else computer-related). It used to be $1050 for a 24-core Epyc.

https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=ROMED8-2T#Specifications

as far as using it as a PC, I think the biggest problem is going to be lack of sound outputs, you would have to run that through your GPU/monitor or a separate soundcard or USB DAC/AMP. It's also pretty short on USB inputs but eh, that can be worked around mostly. The cooler should be compatible with any TR4 cooler since they share an ILM and either way I know I've seen at least one thing from Noctua with SP3 in the name.

Actuarial Fables
Jul 29, 2014



Taco Defender

Paul MaudDib posted:

The cooler should be compatible with any TR4 cooler since they share an ILM and either way I know I've seen at least one thing from Noctua with SP3 in the name.

The only wrinkle is that most epyc boards have the socket rotated 90 degrees from a threadripper one, so a threadripper heatsink will have top/bottom airflow instead of front/back.

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SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Cygni posted:

I sorta remember it being a confluence of Creative putting Aureal out of business and killing 3D audio, Creatives drivers becoming bloated and unusable,

I remember that. That was when Turtle Beach came along and ate Creative's lunch with their tiny little cut-down sound card, IIRC.

Man, I thought those guys were going to blow up big. And then yeah, those AC97-compliant chips started coming out.

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