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EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



And the interference inside cases means anyone serious about audio uses an external dac

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Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

EngineerJoe posted:

And the interference inside cases means anyone serious about audio uses an external dac

Or S/PDIF optical output to your receiver.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

sparkle and shine



Saukkis posted:

Or S/PDIF optical output to your receiver.

Isn’t the receiver an external DAC?

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

THIS IS TRUE!

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


Subjunctive posted:

Isn’t the receiver an external DAC?

Yeah. Receivers are combo DACs plus amps. Just for speakers instead of headphones.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


EngineerJoe posted:

And the interference inside cases means anyone serious about audio uses an external dac

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gigabyte-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/

IMO it's safe to say a good $100 USB DAC runs circles around even against the best mobo audio, particularly for headphones.

Also raw audio chip specs != actual implemented performance.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



My audio is either Bluetooth or coming through my video card over displayport. Where do GPUs fit into the whole equation of quality sound?

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

I suppose that depends on the DAC in whatever device your GPU is plugged in to. Bluetooth can be poor sounding and or laggy, but like, it works. We just free forming in here? I like my bluetooth earbuds.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



CaptainSarcastic posted:

My audio is either Bluetooth or coming through my video card over displayport. Where do GPUs fit into the whole equation of quality sound?

Nowhere, it’s still digital. You’re relying on your monitor’s DAC. Or hopefully an AV receiver’s...

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



If anything, buying an external DAC has made my life SO MUCH EASIER in terms of managing loving.... headphones, and speakers, and microphones.

The last time I nuked and paved because the 20H2 upgrade wasn't perfect, all I did was plug the one USB cable, set a default output, and everything fell in line.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



Of all the components of my computers, audio has always been the one I paid least attention to. Back in the day it was "throw a soundblaster in" and be done with it, especially for Linux. I was just kind of wondering if the audio from my GPU over DP is likely better than if I was running 3.5mm from my mobo. I assume it is, but I've never looked into it in any depth.

I'm happy with how my Bluetooth headphones sound, but honestly have no idea where the audio processing is taking place for that. CPU, probably?

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



CaptainSarcastic posted:

Of all the components of my computers, audio has always been the one I paid least attention to. Back in the day it was "throw a soundblaster in" and be done with it, especially for Linux. I was just kind of wondering if the audio from my GPU over DP is likely better than if I was running 3.5mm from my mobo. I assume it is, but I've never looked into it in any depth.

I'm happy with how my Bluetooth headphones sound, but honestly have no idea where the audio processing is taking place for that. CPU, probably?

It takes place in your headphones where the Digital-Analog Conversion occurs. If you run audio over display port the conversion is done by whatever you’ve plugged the DisplayPort cable and your headphones into.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



hobbesmaster posted:

It takes place in your headphones where the Digital-Analog Conversion occurs. If you run audio over display port the conversion is done by whatever you’ve plugged the DisplayPort cable and your headphones into.

Okay, thanks - that makes it clearer.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I'll give the hot-take and say I don't think the vast majority of users, including a lot of people who already have em, get much if any benefit from external DACs and amps. Every time I've seen it A/B tested, the vast majority of even auto professionals can't really identify the differences. Obviously people mastering audio who need a consistent sound profile, or folks who have systems with really bad sound implementations (like laptops) are a different story.

Of course if you got the money to spend on toys and want to get the best toys like a fancy DAC, go for it and have fun! God knows i've splurged on this stupid 5950X that only runs Loop Hero, and all the other dumb poo poo in this computer tower. But I don't think anyone should feel they need to make the leap for the vast majority of desktop environments.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

CaptainSarcastic posted:

Okay, thanks - that makes it clearer.

However, there are multiple bluetooth encoding/compression schemes which can vary greatly in quality. It requires that both the sender and receiver have compatible protocols.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



LRADIKAL posted:

However, there are multiple bluetooth encoding/compression schemes which can vary greatly in quality. It requires that both the sender and receiver have compatible protocols.

That I was familiar with - I've spent more time researching my Bluetooth headphone buys than I have computer audio in general.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Cygni posted:

I'll give the hot-take and say I don't think the vast majority of users, including a lot of people who already have em, get much if any benefit from external DACs and amps. Every time I've seen it A/B tested, the vast majority of even auto professionals can't really identify the differences. Obviously people mastering audio who need a consistent sound profile, or folks who have systems with really bad sound implementations (like laptops) are a different story.

Of course if you got the money to spend on toys and want to get the best toys like a fancy DAC, go for it and have fun! God knows i've splurged on this stupid 5950X that only runs Loop Hero, and all the other dumb poo poo in this computer tower. But I don't think anyone should feel they need to make the leap for the vast majority of desktop environments.

That said, if you follow that link earlier there’s some data from other motherboards that are complete and utter trash. Even the one that’s perfectly serviceable really could use a headphone amp because of some ridiculous impedance. At least that’s something that you know you’ll need.

Lowen SoDium
Jun 5, 2003

Highen Fiber


Clapping Larry

Cygni posted:

I sorta remember it being a confluence of Creative putting Aureal out of business and killing 3D audio, Creatives drivers becoming bloated and unusable, and “sufficient” audio implementations of AC97 getting integrated into south bridges setting the stage for nobody bothering anymore. I guess you could say it was really just CPUs getting powerful enough to do audio in software as a side project, really.

Multiplayer games and voice chat kinda killed the 4.1/5.1 PC speaker setups too, cause everybody went to headphones.

Aureal was awesome and I will never forgive Creative for killing them.

Creative sued Aureal over some patents or something and Aureal actually won in court, but the court cost bankrupted them. Creative then bought Aureal and shitcanned all of their products, tech, and APIs. It's sad because A3D was so much more advanced than EAX.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Cygni posted:

I'll give the hot-take and say I don't think the vast majority of users, including a lot of people who already have em, get much if any benefit from external DACs and amps. Every time I've seen it A/B tested, the vast majority of even auto professionals can't really identify the differences. Obviously people mastering audio who need a consistent sound profile, or folks who have systems with really bad sound implementations (like laptops) are a different story.

Of course if you got the money to spend on toys and want to get the best toys like a fancy DAC, go for it and have fun! God knows i've splurged on this stupid 5950X that only runs Loop Hero, and all the other dumb poo poo in this computer tower. But I don't think anyone should feel they need to make the leap for the vast majority of desktop environments.

I had the ODAC board on a massdrop O2/ODAC die (I've seen others like this on ebay so I think it's a common problem) but the O2 amp board still works fine, so I've been using the motherboard's AC97 output to drive the amp lol. Even with a 10 foot run it's... fine.

the worst audio output I've ever heard was on a MSI Z97 PC Mate, the cheapest dogshit board Microcenter used to carry. Dunno if it was just my unit but it was obviously picking up all kinds of radio noise from somewhere, either EM noise inside the case, or electrical noise from some kind of grounding problem, or a bad output or whatever. It got audibly worse as you loaded up the system though, either CPU or GPU.

I also had one machine (I wanna say one of the Gigabyte X99s) where the ground on the line out would start to float when the machine shutdown, so you would get loud popping from your speakers if you bumped the connector when the machine was turned off (it was fine if it was turned on). I don't remember which but I'd just turn off the amp when I wasn't using them.

I've inevitably ended up using the line out for one thing or another (driving my receiver for speakers while I had headphones on a DAC/AMP, etc) but most of them have been reasonably fine (2 different gigabyte X99 boards, a gigabyte Z97 ITX board, my EVGA X99 board, a Z390 Taichi Ultimate, etc). Like I'm sure it's not audiophile grade, but it's fine, it didn't have audible noises or anything. The biggest reasonable complaint imo is that it obviously isn't a big beefcake amp that is going to drive some super low-impedence headphones or whatever, but it's fine for line level for an amp/receiver/powered speaker, or ye olde 600 ohm Internet Headset or whatever, and the price is right. It works fine for free, nothing super offensive. Use your nerd-grade USB dac/amp for your headphones and if you ever need to connect a non-usb audio source to/from something, it's there.

I don't doubt it's a place to pinch a few pennies on cheaper boards though, like the PC Mate.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Apr 24, 2021

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Lowen SoDium posted:

It's sad because A3D was so much more advanced than EAX.

All that poo poo was just wasting what was then precious CPU cycles to mangle a video game’s sound profile. EAX might not have had the largest dynamic range, but it had a smaller hit on the processor from what I remember.

I didn’t mess with any of it because in those days I was one of those real motherfuckers with the Hercules Game Theater XP. The sound “card” was merely a PCI interface to a breakout box full of studio inputs connected by a cable that was as unwieldy as a garden hose.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



I remember setting up my Diamond a3d sound card and Cambridge Soundworks 4.0 speakers and thinking I was the poo poo

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



And you were right, those Diamond a3d cards kicked rear end. Us geezers building retro PCs has inflated their price so much, they are now well over the original MSRP too. A new in box copy sold for $500 on eBay a few months ago.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


Cygni posted:

I sorta remember it being a confluence of Creative putting Aureal out of business and killing 3D audio, Creatives drivers becoming bloated and unusable, and “sufficient” audio implementations of AC97 getting integrated into south bridges setting the stage for nobody bothering anymore. I guess you could say it was really just CPUs getting powerful enough to do audio in software as a side project, really.

It's this. Old school sound cards only had value as long as it was worthwhile to use a DSP to offload audio calculations. Once CPUs got fast enough to do the same functions with a tiny fraction of their compute power, soundcards became uncompetitive with the combo of a simple DAC and a standard universal software audio mixer delivered as part of the OS.

AC97's role was that AC97 is to DACs as AHCI is to SATA controllers - a standardized HW/SW interface to reduce or eliminate the need for a custom driver for each vendor's chip.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I had a Gravis Ultrasound and it was the bomb. It came with a game demo where you listened in headphones to determine if a chicken was in front of you and then you blasted it with a shotgun, lol.

Upgradeable memory with DIP package etc. RIP Gravis, they made some of the first decent joysticks and game pads too.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Quick sanity check and a call to anyone with experience with this board

https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/Fatal1ty%20x470%20Gaming-ITXac/index.asp#BIOS

I just ordered a 5800x to replace my 2600x, so I'll need to flash the EFI. Following the link above, you can see version 4.30 offering 5000 series support. There is a newer 4.40 version as well. I think I should go to that version straight away, correct?

Also what's the best order of operations? Update EFI with current chip installed, then replace with new chip? Does it even matter, might this BIOS simply support both versions? I guess I might find out. Thanks.

Inept
Jul 8, 2003

3 olives has a payment plan with his phone company for his cell phone

The box might have a sticker about what it supports, but with an X470 chipset, stock might be moving slowly enough that it still doesn't have an update that supports Zen 3. You could try to boot from the new chip and if that doesn't work stick the old one on to update it.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Like I said, I'm upgrading from a 2600x. I've had this board for a few years now. I'm curious about others' experience with flashing a board for a new chip. I'll post my trip report later.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I've done it lots of times, but the AM4 BIOS/AGESA situation for older boards is one of the weirdest I've seen since the AM2+ days.

It looks like the latest BIOS supports both the 2600 and the Zen3 parts, so I would normally say just go to the latest BIOS now. But the warnings on that page on the prior revisions, plus the boards lack of BIOS flashback (i think?) or dual BIOS makes me hesitate to recommend it. I would absolutely do it myself if it was my board, but im reckless.

It is unlikely to be a problem but i dont wanna mess ur poo poo up.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Updating your BIOS isn't a big deal unless you're very unlucky and there's a power interruption in that 3 minute span of time.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

I'm not worried about corruption, I'm not gonna update until I'm ready to migrate anyhow.

F4rt5
May 20, 2006



priznat posted:

I had a Gravis Ultrasound and it was the bomb. It came with a game demo where you listened in headphones to determine if a chicken was in front of you and then you blasted it with a shotgun, lol.

Upgradeable memory with DIP package etc. RIP Gravis, they made some of the first decent joysticks and game pads too.
I liked my SB16 better than my mate's Ultrasound (512KB). Didn't much care for the Gravis lowpass filter, the SB sounded crisper.

Noise, you say. Treble, I say.

Gravis was a much better card for programmers though. And better hardware acceleration of I remember correctly.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Help my sb16 and cdrom are on the same irq what do I do

F4rt5
May 20, 2006



Get a SCSI drive instead?

Ihmemies
Oct 6, 2012



I use the line out of Maximus X hero. Had problems with my Xonar sound card so ai ditched it. With a poor RCA cable to headphone amp I get some buzzing noise. With a better cable which uses a separate route, away from all the other cables, I get a nice clean signal. I don't hear any other differences. There are measurably better external dac's, but the internal dac seems to do the job well enough (= it doesn't sound like poo poo).

Too much effort to spec an external dac and then even more effort to ABX blind test it vs. motherboard integrated DAC.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


Quality external DACs aren't too hard to find now. My favorite is from JDS Labs. $100 gets you a simple but high quality, USB-only DAC and great customer service (if in the US): https://jdslabs.com/product/atom-dac/

Topping also makes great ones. Audio interfaces from Behringer and Scarlett also have good ones built-in (and decent, if low power, headphone amps, too).

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


WhyteRyce posted:

Help my sb16 and cdrom are on the same irq what do I do

II had this problem with a nic and sound card. I couldn't figure it out and eventually got a USB Wi-Fi adapter. Annoying as all hell.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Update on the Asrock X470 2600X to 5800X upgrade:

I flashed the BIOS to the newest version, rebooted, tried to load my defaults, which didn't work. For kicks booted into windows. Turned system back off, installed new CPU, set memory to XMP, no problem! seems to work. It's hotter than I was hoping it would be running, and Windows is under the impression that all my drivers should pretty much be reinstalled. Seems to be performing where it should, having a bit of a sound issue, updating drivers. Pretty painless overall.

Going to check my heatsink contact, performance is in line I think.

https://valid.x86.fr/fqvjse

Passmark gives me 28730.

Queadlunn
Dec 10, 2005

Yak Deculture!


Fallen Rib

hobbesmaster posted:

While EEB/CEB is more common there are plenty of ATX options. Asrock’s wacky product is an ITX epyc board!

ATX: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=ROMED8-2T#Specifications
ITX: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=ROMED4ID-2T#Specifications

ok it’s actually slightly larger than ITX but whatever

That ITX board, it's so glorious. All of those u.2/PCIe connectors along the front of the board would be so goddamned handy for weird tinkering stuff. I wish more boards had stuff like that, that also weren't stupidly expensive.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



https://twitter.com/FreeBSDHelp/status/1388280497097252866

Eek.

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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985




Lovely. Does it affect any Arm chips?

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