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Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Obsurveyor posted:

ECC required for ZFS smells like bullshit and cargo cult behavior to me.

95% of what people say about ZFS is cargo cult behaviour.

It doesn't need ECC and it doesn't need something ridiculous like two gigs of RAM per terabyte.

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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Obsurveyor posted:

ECC required for ZFS smells like bullshit and cargo cult behavior to me.

The key phrase being "any moreso than any other filesystem". If your data is significant and irreplaceable, or business-critical, or legally significant, then you should use ECC on any filesystem. If a bit gets flipped in your animes... so what?

Google's done some large-scale research here and bit errors are actually quite common. They scale up significantly with altitude, they scale up significantly with memory allocation amounts and CPU utilization, and of course temperatures are also well-known to scale up the error rate as well (hairdryers are a common method to induce bit errors). They also tend to increase significantly on older harder that's been used for more than ~20 months.

About one third of machines in Google's study experienced at least one memory error per year, with some platforms as high as 50% per year. Machines that have errors tend to have lots of them, with the median number of errors per year for machines having at least one error ranging from 25 to 611 (again depending on platform).

So basically the distribution here is kinda bimodal, most machines don't experience any failures but the ones that do really poo poo the bed like crazy, and those are often older machines and ones under high load. Of course, without ECC you don't really know whether your hardware is perfect or the silicon equivalent of Tubgirl.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at May 6, 2017 around 06:04

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Obsurveyor posted:

ECC required for ZFS smells like bullshit and cargo cult behavior to me.

The key phrase here is "any more so than any other filesystem", meaning "ECC should not be a factor in deciding between a filesystem and ZFS". Because if it meant something to you, you'd be using ECC, whether you were on ZFS, Btrfs, EXT4, or whatever.

e;fb

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~perfect~
battlebrother





ECC has the problem where, most of the time it's used properly, but there are people who don't need it at all getting it (like people keeping 25tb of getting antsy over a single bitflip on lovely movie #875) and then there are mission-critical enterpise PCs that don't use ECC

Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at May 5, 2017 around 22:31

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014




Tortured By Flan

Kazinsal posted:

95% of what people say about ZFS is cargo cult behaviour.

It doesn't need ECC and it doesn't need something ridiculous like two gigs of RAM per terabyte.

I still can't get over the idea that otherwise intelligent people don't stop at the 1 gb ram per 2 tb storage (the recommended amount I've seen) and think, "Hmm, I feel like this need has more to do with the nature of my workload than the filesystem itself." :smithreddit:

Stanley Pain
Jun 16, 2001

Bit. Trip. RIP.


I think the 2GB / 1 TB comes from people talking about enabling DEDUP on large arrays. You can just as easily offload that to a SSD cache

Palladium
May 8, 2012


Potato Salad posted:

I still can't get over the idea that otherwise intelligent people don't stop at the 1 gb ram per 2 tb storage (the recommended amount I've seen) and think, "Hmm, I feel like this need has more to do with the nature of my workload than the filesystem itself." :smithreddit:

Much of technical advice out on teh Internets can be summed as "my toys are more expensive than yours".

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


Palladium posted:

Much of technical advice out on teh Internets can be summed as "my toys are more expensive than yours".

or "it works for me I don't know why it doesn't for you"

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

wargames posted:

or "it works for me I don't know care why it doesn't for you"

sweart gliwere
Jul 5, 2005

better to die an evil wizard,
than to live as a grand one.


Am I crazy for thinking the Ryzen 5 1600 would be a decent option for a non-gaming home workstation? Paired with an efficient 4GB GPU, and 16GB of system RAM.

blowfish
Oct 10, 2012

I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!


sweart gliwere posted:

Am I crazy for thinking the Ryzen 5 1600 would be a decent option for a non-gaming home workstation? Paired with an efficient 6-8GB GPU, and 16GB of ECC system RAM.

ftfy so it can be called workstation () and yes i think it's reasonable

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014




Tortured By Flan

Why ecc ram on a workstation?

sweart gliwere
Jul 5, 2005

better to die an evil wizard,
than to live as a grand one.


Potato Salad posted:

Why ecc ram on a workstation?

Yeah, I think blowfish may have some very specific workstation purposes in mind. My post and intention aren't including ECC.

This is for a home base productivity setup (the sole desktop in the house) and the crazy core/thread count appeals to me.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


Pillbug

I think that usually the idea is that whatever you're doing on a "workstation" is important enough that your output shouldn't be subject to soft errors that might not be detected. This is because to some people the term carries the connotation of doing protein folding or CAD or video editing or some such important poo poo, IDK.

Your particular circumstances will of course affect your chance of soft errors happening at all, changing something important and/or going unnoticed.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009


With Ryzen where in theory ECC is supported by every CPU / MB, why the hell not? ECC is like a $15 premium then.

sweart gliwere
Jul 5, 2005

better to die an evil wizard,
than to live as a grand one.


Twerk from Home posted:

With Ryzen where in theory ECC is supported by every CPU / MB, why the hell not? ECC is like a $15 premium then.

If it's that small a difference, it's worth it I guess.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009


sweart gliwere posted:

If it's that small a difference, it's worth it I guess.

The premium on ECC memory itself is usually pretty minimal, the problem is that Intel has forbidden i5/i7 CPUs from using ECC, as well as the cheap consumer H and Z motherboards.

eames
May 9, 2009



Potato Salad posted:

Why ecc ram on a workstation?

Why not ECC in every device?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTvPYqddGBQ

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Why *not* ECC in every device? It *should* be a security thing, but alas, speed is king, and cutting costs is the advisor manipulating the king like a puppet.

http://www.techspot.com/article/845...-vs-ecc-memory/

(I don't know of any similar tests with DDR4.)

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014




Tortured By Flan

ECC for fun and security should totally be a thing! I'm not a stakeholder in AMD or Intel, though, so I'm resigned to pointing out that a $15-20 increase (if it is indeed that low) on ecc ram may or may not do as much net good as a spontaneous bouquet of flowers for your mother or spouse, depending on whether its just a home pc for browsing or a true critical-workload workstation.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014




Tortured By Flan

Every dollar has a purpose.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Padding the dividends of shareholders and the board of directors! </bitter>

sincx
Jul 13, 2012

What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon? Decent people shouldn't think too much about that.

Is ECC 3200 MHz DDR4 even available? Anything slower on Ryzen seems sub-optimal.

WAR DOGS OF SOCHI
Feb 19, 2005

The dark side of science breeds a weapon of war.


Buglord


*drinks water* This *drinks water* is an *drinks water* example *drinks water* of a *drinks water* bit *drinks water* squatting *drinks water* err *drinks water* or *drinks water*

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

sweart gliwere posted:

Am I crazy for thinking the Ryzen 5 1600 would be a decent option for a non-gaming home workstation? Paired with an efficient 4GB GPU, and 16GB of system RAM.

That's probably what I'm going to do... and then also play games on it because gently caress building another computer just for games

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003

Oh my god...

Lipstick Apathy

Ryzen owns for multitasking

Two separate x264 encodes (nice'd), each pinned to all eight threads of its own CCX, browser, irc, email, torrents, and a steam game running simultaneously.
Everything is buttery smooth.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

SamDabbers fucked around with this message at May 9, 2017 around 23:08

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



Raven dude ridge ES allegedly spotted. WCCFTech salt now, not later, etc:

http://wccftech.com/amd-raven-ridge...-vega-gpu-leak/

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm. Christmas cheapo desktops/laptops are going to be _interesting_~

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

Protect our Friends!

Anti-Poaching Task Force
Japari Park Service


SamDabbers posted:

Ryzen owns for multitasking

Two separate x264 encodes (nice'd), each pinned to all eight threads of its own CCX, browser, irc, email, torrents, and a steam game running simultaneously.
Everything is buttery smooth.



This picture pleases me

Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009



SwissArmyDruid posted:

Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm. Christmas cheapo desktops/laptops are going to be _interesting_~

Looking forward to Black Friday this year.

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



Ryzen HEDT and server ES stuff leaking:

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-eng...-samples-update

Looking pretty pretty good.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~perfect~
battlebrother





NewFatMike posted:

Ryzen HEDT and server ES stuff leaking:

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-eng...-samples-update

Looking pretty pretty good.
I can't decide who I like more, nvidia's marketing department or AMD's marketing department

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



My vote's for AMD. They are like a dumb puppy. Overeager and even sometimes occasionally useful.

Nvidia's wants to push SaaS onto you, and SaaS is a legitimate goddamn cancer.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at May 11, 2017 around 07:24

eames
May 9, 2009



16C/32T sounds nice if you have the right use case. Do you guys expect this to have higher IPC than current Ryzen as comes with Quadchannel DDR4, stupid amounts of cache and perhaps a few architectural "hotfixes"?

Scarecow
May 20, 2008

"...OK"


Lipstick Apathy

Unless it clocks higher its going to be no better if not worse for gaming because it cant clock as high as the 8 core chips

PC LOAD LETTER
May 23, 2005
WTF?!

Slippery Tilde

If you're actually doing something using all those threads then 4 channel memory is a must. For games and other stuff 16 threads or less I wouldn't expect to see much if any difference with one of those at all vs a similarly clocked 8C16T Ryzen. A 64 MB L3 could make a nice difference for somethings like Crystalwell did though.

There has been no real word on what effect any of the minor fixes that were hinted at are going to have. I wouldn't expect much there. Probably just some bug fixes and little to nothing to do with performance.

Platform wise if you really need lots of PCIe then you've got something to look for I guess. I'd care more about the integrated 10Gbe ports myself. The block diagram seems to show them integrated into the CPU itself which is a bit odd, should be pretty fast and power efficient as a result of that.

Nam Taf
Jun 25, 2005

I am Fat Man, hear me roar!


I want one of them with 64GB of RAM for FEA holy dooly. My 6C/12T Xeon isn't enough.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


SwissArmyDruid posted:

My vote's for AMD. They are like a dumb puppy. Overeager and even sometimes occasionally useful.

Nvidia's wants to push SaaS onto you, and SaaS is a legitimate goddamn cancer.

Wouldn't that be "hardware as a service" in NVIDIA's case?

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Ehhhh, I *guess* so. Either way, the Club GeForce Elite thing they announced at the end of last year was absolutely no doubt some diseased marketing drone's baby.

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Drakhoran
Oct 21, 2012


Since we're linking to Videocardz.com, anyone feel like a 48 core "Starship" chip on 7nm next year?

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