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teagone posted:So, should I hold off on desktop Renoir for Cezanne then since Zen 3 is the end of the road for B450? I don't really need to upgrade just yet anyways. Zen 3 is the end of the road for X570, too. Nobody expects there to be any new AM4 chips beyond Zen 3 HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 16:46
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Pablo Bluth posted:U-TURN ALERT. I didn't even have to order a 3xxx to get them to do this  Thanks to the other goon that did, it worked.
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May 19, 2020 17:32
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I tweeted "yikes, not a good look" at them, so you're welcome
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May 19, 2020 17:45
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I dono guys zen 3 on these 400 series sounds like the devils bargain. Blowing out old cpu support, thus limiting its usefulness as hand-me-downs and no bios walkback, sounds worrisome. Now that cpu lives with that motherboard.
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May 19, 2020 18:04
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incoherent posted:I dono guys zen 3 on these 400 series sounds like the devils bargain. Blowing out old cpu support, thus limiting its usefulness as hand-me-downs and no bios walkback, sounds worrisome. Now that cpu lives with that motherboard.
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May 19, 2020 18:07
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incoherent posted:I dono guys zen 3 on these 400 series sounds like the devils bargain. Blowing out old cpu support, thus limiting its usefulness as hand-me-downs and no bios walkback, sounds worrisome. Now that cpu lives with that motherboard. Yeah the point about needing proof of purchase before you can download the new BIOS sounds like it's going to have implications for the second-hand market until/unless people start smuggling out the BIOS downloads
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May 19, 2020 18:07
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I think boards with flashback or dual-bios features will still be able to roll back to previous versions. I think they are just trying to avoid people being dumb and blindly updating their boards and locking them out of their hardware. Though I imagine the only ones who would be affected would be those with 1xxx processors. I imagine 2xxxx and 3xxxx will still be supported after the flash.
Dramicus fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 18:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah the point about needing proof of purchase before you can download the new BIOS sounds like it's going to have implications for the second-hand market until/unless people start smuggling out the BIOS downloads I doubt it will be actual proof of purchase, probably more like punching in a CPU serial number. The goal is to make it difficult for the type of idiot who would flash a bios that says "DOES NOT WORK WITH THESE CPUS" onto the board they have an incompatible CPU in, and then RMA the board to the OEM. Apparently there are more of those people around than I would have guessed. I suspect that if you're in the situation where you legitimately want a B450 board to have a Zen 3 bios (say you're about to send it to a friend who will get a ryzen 4000 but hasn't bought it yet) it will not be difficult to acquire one. And the no rollback is weird, I don't know how they're even gonna do or enforce that. It is gonna make buying a used B450 2-3 years from now a bit weird unless you buy/sell both board and CPU together though.
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May 19, 2020 18:36
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Speaking of, where is CPU information like serial number aside from on the physical thing itself? Motherboard is just a simple Windows command.
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May 19, 2020 18:43
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ufarn posted:Speaking of, where is CPU information like serial number aside from on the physical thing itself? Motherboard is just a simple Windows command. not sure that is available digitally because people pitched a shitfit about it back when the Pentium 3 was first introduced and it was removed I just did a CPUID report on my desktop and didn't see anything obvious, there was a mobo serial and definitely some "to be filled by OEM" strings but nothing that was obviously a CPU serial Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 19:14 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 18:53
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I wonder what percentage of the DIY PC building space has spent the past year only learning about AMD features because of the resulting outcries.
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May 19, 2020 19:02
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Paul MaudDib posted:not sure that is available digitally because people pitched a shitfit about it back when the Pentium 3 was first introduced and it was removed Yup, I remember that well. I also think AMD has taken a reasonable path to lock out the BIOS updates. They're trying to save people from themselves.
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May 19, 2020 19:02
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ufarn posted:Speaking of, where is CPU information like serial number aside from on the physical thing itself? Motherboard is just a simple Windows command. If you just bought a CPU, new-in-box, it's on a sticker on the box.
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May 19, 2020 19:59
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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May 19, 2020 20:48
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sincx posted:yeah I don't think there's flash or any other programmable non-volatile memory on the CPU, so there's no way to program in a unique serial number during the processor manufacturing process there is, to configure things like cores and clocks and voltages and features, otherwise your processor doesn't know whether it's a 5820K or a 1660v3 it's not flash, it's basically a PROM or e-fuse and they get blown at the factory. It's basically a small linkage that if you put too much voltage over it burns out permanently, by checking whether it passes current or not you can tell if it's a 0 or a 1 Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:57 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 20:54
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I think both Intel and AMD have embedded flash in the core that enables them to do that weird pre-boot ARM CPU secure layer magic stuff that I'm too dumb to really understand. You wouldn't store a serial there though I don't think.
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May 19, 2020 20:55
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Intel Briefly put in PSN which stored the serial number internally, like in the Pentium 3 days, but nobody does that now.
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May 19, 2020 21:32
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The Pentium 3 privacy freak out about serial numbers potentially allowing an individual computer to be identified on the interwebs is really quaint now. We still got what they were fearing in 1999 but with massive algorithms, hell cookies, ad trackers, etc. instead of a CPU serial number. Serial numbers got quietly readded with Ivy Bridge and AMD chips at some point, but Intel's original vision of using them for things like electronic commerce were thrown out the window.
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May 19, 2020 22:11
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CommieGIR posted:but nobody does that now. Ah 1999, when we thought they'd need special hardware IDs to track us on the internet. 
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May 19, 2020 22:26
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CPU serial number being extended as a unique identifier via javascript to any website you visit would have been way worse than anything we have to deal with today. This was a "feature" for e-com that Intel and Microsoft were going to roll out, so if it had gained traction, it wouldn't be something you could gently caress with like you can with everything else used for browser fingerprinting. Edit: also, why do you think so much effort is put into tracking technology? If sites could just call navigator.GetIntelFreedomID then there would be no need for any abstract fingerprinting methods to exist. GRECOROMANGRABASS fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 23:23
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GRECOROMANGRABASS posted:CPU serial number being extended as a unique identifier via javascript to any website you visit would have been way worse than anything we have to deal with today. This was a "feature" for e-com that Intel and Microsoft were going to roll out, so if it had gained traction, it wouldn't be something you could gently caress with like you can with everything else used for browser fingerprinting. Didn't it have some disingenuous code-name like Paladin or something?
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May 19, 2020 23:53
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Even if the process is fiddly, it's great news for me. I built my 2600X system because I needed a computer when I did, but if I can drop in a 4700X and RTX 3070 (or whatever) it would be a computer I'm happy to use for one hell of a long time.
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May 20, 2020 00:04
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Malcolm XML posted:Make a beta bios that supports new cpus. Satisfies the peanut gallery but no business will ever flash one so the $ is safe called it
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May 20, 2020 01:01
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Malcolm XML posted:called it
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May 20, 2020 01:02
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Truga posted:all of this is tangentally relevant to this thread because amd zen is the best arch to play quake2 on. some people buy a $1000 gpu to run quake 2 rtx, i bought a $1000 cpu to run quake 2 software renderer EPYC is a soc, HPC loves it. idk why they keep a chipset around for desktop at all. maybe WSA? costs less than a bunch of USB/SATA controllers?
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May 20, 2020 01:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah the point about needing proof of purchase before you can download the new BIOS sounds like it's going to have implications for the second-hand market until/unless people start smuggling out the BIOS downloads GamersNexus asked what AMD meant by "verified" and they clarified that they basically just meant that there will be a huge honkin' prompt when you download and/or try to flash this special BIOS that this is Zen3 only and if you don't have a Zen3 CPU you're gonna gently caress yourself over, please verify that you have a Zen3 CPU. No proof of purchase needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N2NCpZ6Otk
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May 20, 2020 01:20
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Malcolm XML posted:called it yeah, that was bang on
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May 20, 2020 01:33
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In his most recent video (about the Zen3 BIOS walkback), Ian Cuttress ended with a throwaway comment about Zen 3 not being included at any talks at this year's Hot Chips conference, so he now assumes there won't be concrete info on it until Q4. Boo. On the other hand, he said B550 would be on the market in "a few more weeks". If nothing else, slurping up reviews of all those boards will give me something to chew on for planning purposes.
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May 20, 2020 01:48
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wondering about that "PRO 500" chipset if there isn't going to be an update to the deskmini a300 
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May 20, 2020 02:02
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This may be perceived as stingy but if AMD can support x470 then I'm not sure why they can't support x370 as well? I believe they are the same chipset (just with better memory support). My ASUS PRIME x370-PRO claims to have a 128Mb ROM so are these 16Mb v 32Mb discussions over the past few pages talking about something else? TimeWaster fucked around with this message at 04:02 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 04:00
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128 megabit (Mb) is 16 megabyte (MB).
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May 20, 2020 04:03
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Puddin posted:128 megabit (Mb) is 16 megabyte (MB).  Thanks, now I'm up to speed. Carry on.
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May 20, 2020 04:16
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At least this entire clusterfuck will prepare OEMs and AMD on AM5 if they go this route again, possibly with minimum specifications to just dodge the gently caress out of this mess now that AMD has a proven track record and sales to enforce it.TimeWaster posted:This may be perceived as stingy but if AMD can support x470 then I'm not sure why they can't support x370 as well? I believe they are the same chipset (just with better memory support). There is every possibility the OEMs can do it themselves anyway, they're the exact same chipset so if it's possible to port they're likely to do so if even one of them does it. Dramicus posted:I think boards with flashback or dual-bios features will still be able to roll back to previous versions. I think they are just trying to avoid people being dumb and blindly updating their boards and locking them out of their hardware. Though I imagine the only ones who would be affected would be those with 1xxx processors. I imagine 2xxxx and 3xxxx will still be supported after the flash. Especially for 32MB BIOS boards, I don't see a reason they won't run 2000 series and I don't think the BIOS update would wipe out Zen2 support either so there is probably some flexibility left on B450/X470. Like even in the second hand market, who is going to give a gently caress about anything but 2xxx to 4xxx series processors? They're just so fundamentally better than the 1xxx series. Paul MaudDib posted:technically we don’t know this and AMD made a note that “future processors” would not be supported on B450, which could be a hint that there are future AM4 processors coming for X570 and up. I think if anything is likely it'll be a small release of Zen4/DDR4 to either get it out the door or just maximize sales if DDR5 is too expensive still, and it allows them to more effectively counter a Tiger Lake or Alder Lake release. I mean like has been pointed out before, due to the nature of the cores being RAM agnostic they could support AM4 near indefinitely if they wanted.
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May 20, 2020 04:55
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EmpyreanFlux posted:Like even in the second hand market, who is going to give a gently caress about anything but 2xxx to 4xxx series processors? They're just so fundamentally better than the 1xxx series. I've been planning for months to turn my spares from the 3X00 --> 4X00 upgrades into workstations for sci/eng/art students -- young people doing the kind of work that can actually use the cores. All this BIOS hub-bub made me realize that I still have a pair of retired 1600s in my closet, and if I want to pass those on as well then I need to get mobos for them now before 1X00 support falls off the face of the earth.
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May 20, 2020 06:51
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Puddin posted:128 megabit (Mb) is 16 megabyte (MB). 
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May 20, 2020 07:51
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TimeWaster posted:This may be perceived as stingy but if AMD can support x470 then I'm not sure why they can't support x370 as well? Was getting Zen 2 to work on A320 something that was officially sanctioned/allowed by AMD? Because otherwise I wouldn't put it past someone to try and enable Zen 3 to work even outside of B450/X470 gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 09:28 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 08:02
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mdxi posted:I've been planning for months to turn my spares from the 3X00 --> 4X00 upgrades into workstations for sci/eng/art students -- young people doing the kind of work that can actually use the cores. All this BIOS hub-bub made me realize that I still have a pair of retired 1600s in my closet, and if I want to pass those on as well then I need to get mobos for them now before 1X00 support falls off the face of the earth. I'm thinking more the second hand market itself, not so much second hand. Also pretty sure the 2xxx series sold an astounding amount more than the 1xxx series, and unless they are priced insanely low no one is going to buy them, especially since AMD has no problem discounting older generations to the point they kind of crush any reason to buy into the second hand market in the first place.
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May 20, 2020 09:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:Was getting Zen 2 to work on A320 something that was officially sanctioned/allowed by AMD? Because otherwise I wouldn't put it past someone to try and enable Zen 3 to work even outside of B450/X370 Where there's a
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May 20, 2020 09:17
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Discussion Quorum posted:Even if the process is fiddly, it's great news for me. I built my 2600X system because I needed a computer when I did, but if I can drop in a 4700X and RTX 3070 (or whatever) it would be a computer I'm happy to use for one hell of a long time. yeah i grabbed a 2600x and a good MSI b450 about a year ago along with some other stuff i got a great deal on and a hand-me-down video card i am pretty stoked that its going to probably end up being able to support a drop in processor of the same uh...market segment or whatever, that will probably smoke it meanwhilst i "dont remember" what it would cost to replace my 8700K because i see no reason not to relegate that to the basement forever E: can i just say that when you find a motherboard that you actually like, even beyond the $250 or whatever it might cost for all the features and poo poo, i just simply do not want to god damned go through the process of replacing it and then having a perfectly great condition used motherboard that is financially irresponsible to NOT resell. its a burden yo Worf fucked around with this message at 12:14 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 12:12
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Jarrod's Tech has their usual CPU comparison charts up for the i9 10th vs the 3950x  Now we wait and see what cache improvements do for frame times in gaming, I guess. More of the same elsewhere.
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May 20, 2020 14:32
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