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Basebf555 posted:The movie basically treats the clone as a separate entity, it doesn't really explore what it would mean for a single consciousness to be split into two different physical bodies, and then further what would happen if one of those bodies died. Well, it does in the sense that it explores the horror of condemning yourself to die repeatedly. My interpretation was that there's no way to tell if the ones who died were the original or not, so each time he used the device he may well have died and created another instance of himself who lived just long enough to do it again.
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Apr 27, 2017 04:24
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Yo having a clone from the machine isn't cool and fun according to the movie. The clones loving hate each other. Angier-B is pleased to know Angier-A is drowning in a box.
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Apr 27, 2017 09:20
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Hodgepodge posted:Well, it does in the sense that it explores the horror of condemning yourself to die repeatedly. My interpretation was that there's no way to tell if the ones who died were the original or not, so each time he used the device he may well have died and created another instance of himself who lived just long enough to do it again. Oh wow I never considered that the drowning Angier wasn't the 'original' man and the teleported man was the clone. And it may not matter, for all Angier-B can tell, he's the original. Jesus this movie is great
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Apr 27, 2017 09:24
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The thing is, Angier prime, the one who shoots the first clone in Bowie's lab knows he's the prime. So when he performs that very first trick and he sets up the tank below the stage he has to know he'll be ending up in there. Angier dos who appears in the rafters may FEEL like he's Angier stepping out to the applause, but he KNOWS it wasn't teleportation because the next night he'll be the man in the box.
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Apr 27, 2017 10:16
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Ammanas posted:Yo having a clone from the machine isn't cool and fun according to the movie. The clones loving hate each other. Angier-B is pleased to know Angier-A is drowning in a box. There's no evidence that the clones hate each other, other than the one cat hissing at the other. Certainly nothing in the movie suggests that it's painful for the humans to have clones.
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Apr 27, 2017 10:55
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ElectricSheep posted:Sacrifice isn't running back to the comfort of Angier's monied life (which he made frequent use of, even when he was stateside), it's what the Bordens put themselves through to maintain the illusion. They both are. Neither is good. The two competitors (the Bordens and Angier) are very selfish people who, in their pursuit of their own goal of glory, gently caress up others' lives. The 'sacrifice' of the Bordens isn't what 'they' put themselves through, it's that they drive one of their wives to suicide (and you could argue, though I don't remember this part too well, that they cause Angier's wife to die too). Angier's sacrifice is more extreme than Borden's in a way, he is willing to die. But his willingness to die has selfish motives. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 11:03
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Ammanas posted:Yo having a clone from the machine isn't cool and fun according to the movie. The clones loving hate each other. Angier-B is pleased to know Angier-A is drowning in a box. This isn't really true, but also it doesn't really add any thematic weight to the movie. There is a perfectly coherent, thematic reason why Angier (who we know as a person from watching the movie) kills the clones. We do not need a science-fiction explanation for it.
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Apr 27, 2017 11:05
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Drunken Baker posted:The thing is, Angier prime, the one who shoots the first clone in Bowie's lab knows he's the prime. No he doesn't. What there is, basically, is a memory of being alive that is constantly passed, through cloning, to the clone who is alive. The clone who dies at the end of the movie has memories of surviving every single transportation/cloning process. You can't know you are the original or the clone on your own. The reason why machine works the way it does (one Angier appears somewhere else, one Angier is exactly where he should be) is probably because we can more easily assume that way that the one who appears elsewhere is 'the clone'. Therefore, we can say there is a higher than 50% chance that Angier is killing himself every night. If the machine worked by having two Angiers appear in two different places (and the one in the original spot disappears), it would be a genuine 'who's who', the way it's done makes it so that it's more likely that Angier is killing himself, but there's enough of a chance that he isn't that he is willing to take it. Which reflects negatively on him. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 11:06
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precision posted:But the problem is the film isn't about, and shouldn't be about, Tesla's Machine at all. It's Borden's story, and the story of a competition. I'm not sure why you think it's Borden's story. Angier probably has more screentime. His actions drive most of the plot and we are deliberately kept in the dark about Borden a lot more (for obvious reasons). The whole story is structured to put emphasis on the cloning, by beginning with Angier's 'death' and framing a fair part of the story using Borden's diaries that are leading Angier to the machine. The machine is a really important element of the story because of the connection it forms between technological progress, petty human desires, and horror. It is an incredibly invention with horrible ethical consequences and is immediately used in a nightmarish way. It is a very traditional idea of people going to such extremes for bad reasons that they go beyond what is achievable in the natural world, with disastrous consequences.
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Apr 27, 2017 11:23
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Pedro De Heredia posted:This isn't really true, but also it doesn't really add any thematic weight to the movie. But still, the thing that gets me is that he isn't forcing the clones to get in the tank. And since the soon to be dead clone also sets things up with an intro (I think? haven't seen it in a while) then we can assume that the clone has all the knowledge and memories as the original, so he knows he is going to die but goes ahead with it anyway. This also means that the clones can't possibly hate each other that much, if they're willing to team up on a trick that will result in certain death for one of them. Pedro De Heredia posted:The machine is a really important element of the story because of the connection it forms between technological progress, petty human desires, and horror. It is an incredibly invention with horrible ethical consequences and is immediately used in a nightmarish way. It is a very traditional idea of people going to such extremes for bad reasons that they go beyond what is achievable in the natural world, with disastrous consequences. And, in a movie that's all about magic tricks and "how do they do it?" marveling, it's the most magical thing of all. raditts fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 14:50
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Can we at least all agree that it's better than The Illusionist?
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Apr 27, 2017 15:09
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Shanty posted:Can we at least all agree that it's better than The Illusionist? Its better than this movie called The Illusionist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illusionist_(2006_film) But not better than this movie also called The Illusionist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illusionist_(2010_film)
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Apr 27, 2017 15:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:No he doesn't. What there is, basically, is a memory of being alive that is constantly passed, through cloning, to the clone who is alive. The clone who dies at the end of the movie has memories of surviving every single transportation/cloning process. You can't know you are the original or the clone on your own. Its been years since I've seen it, so was I mis-remembering the original bit where he does the first cloning? He stashes a gun, steps on the pad and clones himself. Then Angier grabs the gun and shoots the clone. Or did the clone grab the gun? If it was the clone, then that clears up any confusion on my part, because the clone would think he was Angier who "teleported" leaving a clone in his place, thus having no qualms about duping himself and leaving a "clone" to die in a box.
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Apr 27, 2017 15:36
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Basebf555 posted:Its better than this movie called The Illusionist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illusionist_(2006_film) Good point. I meant the one that came out the same year as The Prestige.
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Apr 27, 2017 15:57
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Shanty posted:Good point. I meant the one that came out the same year as The Prestige. I know, just always nice to have an opportunity to maybe bring the other one to people's attention. It's a shame Chomet's work is so labor intensive because I'd love to have a new one every other year or so but that's just not a realistic expectation.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:00
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Right before Angier shoots himself, the "clone" says "Wait, stop, I'm-" and we can presume he was about to say "I'm the real one" or something similar. But having that scene only makes it absolutely clear that Angier knows he's going to drown every time, because he remember the first time he did it and how "he" didn't teleport. He should remember whether or not the "him" that steps into the machine will fall through the trapdoor or not because the machine always works the same way.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:11
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Didn't he say in his monologue at the end that it took sacrifice, not knowing if he'd be the man on the stage or the man in the box? I assumed that meant the machine may or may not actually teleport the "original," but would always make a duplicate. After all, it didn't work as intended.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:46
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Drunken Baker posted:The thing is, Angier prime, the one who shoots the first clone in Bowie's lab knows he's the prime. So when he performs that very first trick and he sets up the tank below the stage he has to know he'll be ending up in there. Angier dos who appears in the rafters may FEEL like he's Angier stepping out to the applause, but he KNOWS it wasn't teleportation because the next night he'll be the man in the box. I love how the ambiguity of the movie just makes it more hosed up. I personally agree with the theory at Angier 1 (on stage) drowns every night and Angier 2 (on the balcony) is so obsessed with applause and adulation that he's willing to follow through with a new iteration of the same suicide pact every night. Which means that Angier Prime never actually got the applause he wanted so badly; he drowned on the first night content that he would be going to see his wife and that some part of him (literally) would live on to accomplish his goals of getting revenge on Borden by one-upping his best trick while stealing all the glory for himself. precision posted:Right before Angier shoots himself, the "clone" says "Wait, stop, I'm-" and we can presume he was about to say "I'm the real one" or something similar. But having that scene only makes it absolutely clear that Angier knows he's going to drown every time, because he remember the first time he did it and how "he" didn't teleport. He should remember whether or not the "him" that steps into the machine will fall through the trapdoor or not because the machine always works the same way. Das Boo posted:Didn't he say in his monologue at the end that it took sacrifice, not knowing if he'd be the man on the stage or the man in the box? I assumed that meant the machine may or may not actually teleport the "original," but would always make a duplicate. After all, it didn't work as intended. I think you can interpret these either way, as the machine being slightly unreliable or unstable (it will always create a dupe, but there's a 50/50 chance that it teleports the original far away rather than keeping the original in the starting point) or as Angier deluding himself and rationalizing his choice to commit mass suicide just to win an egotistical competition.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:04
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Shanty posted:Can we at least all agree that it's better than The Illusionist? I hope that you're not saying The Illusionist is bad, because that's certainly not true.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:02
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metallicaeg posted:I hope that you're not saying The Illusionist is bad, because that's certainly not true. I'm definitely saying that. Ed Norton rubbed me the wrong way all through that thing. Do sell me on it, though.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:28
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precision posted:Right before Angier shoots himself, the "clone" says "Wait, stop, I'm-" and we can presume he was about to say "I'm the real one" or something similar. But having that scene only makes it absolutely clear that Angier knows he's going to drown every time, because he remember the first time he did it and how "he" didn't teleport. He should remember whether or not the "him" that steps into the machine will fall through the trapdoor or not because the machine always works the same way. Drunken Baker posted:Its been years since I've seen it, so was I mis-remembering the original bit where he does the first cloning? The thing is there is a difference between 'knowing you're the prime' and 'knowing where you landed'. When you create a physical duplicate of yourself who apparently also shares your memories, then the idea of relying on your own experience and your own perception no longer works, because you do not know if your 'memories' were just cloned or not. Angier can't remember that 'he' didn't teleport, becase these are two separate experiences. One is getting into the machine. The other is remaining there after the duplicate is made. But the first experience is not unique: he knows the other version of him also believes he got into a machine. He can't know if he remembers getting into the machine because he got into the machine, or because he's a duplicate who has the memory of someone who got into the machine. If this first Angier does not know if *he* is the duplicate or the original (and he can't really know it with certainty), then he cannot know if *he* will be the one who dies. If he's the original, he'll be the one who dies in the trick. If he's the clone, he'll be the one who lives. I think. All the death can also be interpreted as a way of not grappling with all the implications of this immense power he now has. raditts posted:But still, the thing that gets me is that he isn't forcing the clones to get in the tank. He kinda is. I mean, no one's *voluntarily* getting in the tank. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 20:57
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Shanty posted:I'm definitely saying that. Ed Norton rubbed me the wrong way all through that thing. Do sell me on it, though. I love a good period piece, Giamatti makes up for Norton's shortfalls, Philip Glass is my favorite modern day composer, and not just because we share the same last name. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Apr 27, 2017 21:23
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Gonna throw stones all over your house
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Apr 28, 2017 01:38
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precision posted:Right before Angier shoots himself, the "clone" says "Wait, stop, I'm-" and we can presume he was about to say "I'm the real one" or something similar. But having that scene only makes it absolutely clear that Angier knows he's going to drown every time, because he remember the first time he did it and how "he" didn't teleport. He should remember whether or not the "him" that steps into the machine will fall through the trapdoor or not because the machine always works the same way. How would the clone know he's not the real one?
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Apr 28, 2017 04:15
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What is this suicide pact nonsense? Jackman explains in his monologue that the machine makes a perfect copy and he doesn't know which one ends up where. Obviously one of the Jackmans drowns horribly, but the guy is such a narcissist that the one who lives - who until that point only has memories of appearing on the other side of the theater every time the trick is performed - does mental gymnastics to see the dead one as "not him." Jackman is terrified of experiencing the trick as the one who ends up in the tank, but he wants the crowd's applause so badly that he convinces himself to keep doing the trick every night because, hey, he's "lived" every time so far.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:09
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raditts posted:How would the clone know he's not the real one? I only meant that the Angier who shot himself believes that he's the "prime". Though, if the copy is the same - why didn't they both go for the gun?
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Apr 28, 2017 07:02
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The gun is closer to one of them, and the one who appears elsewhere is probably more disoriented than the one who 'remains'.
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Apr 28, 2017 07:24
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A lesser film would have delved into the idea that copies are always somehow worse than the original, but one reason why The Prestige owns is that the clone and the original are equals. The Bordens develop different tastes and characteristics which creates a nice little Jekyll & Hyde dynamic, but they are both still Borden.
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Apr 28, 2017 14:20
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Grendels Dad posted:A lesser film would have delved into the idea that copies are always somehow worse than the original, but one reason why The Prestige owns is that the clone and the original are equals. The Bordens develop different tastes and characteristics which creates a nice little Jekyll & Hyde dynamic, but they are both still Borden. Well the Borden boys aren't clones, though?
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Apr 28, 2017 14:36
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Shanty posted:Well the Borden boys aren't clones, though? They very clearly are. Or am I missing a joke?
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Apr 28, 2017 14:41
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Ooooh gently caress. It never occurred to me that Tesla could have built the exact same machine before for Borden, and that his twin wasn't necessarily a birth twin. I assumed Tesla had done something else for them, like a stage show lights and effects thing, and the cloning machine Jackman got was a fluke invention.
Attack on Princess fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 14:54
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Donnerberg posted:Ooooh gently caress. It never occurred to me that Tesla could have built the exact same machine before for Borden, and that his twin wasn't necessarily a birth twin. I assumed Tesla had done something else for them, just a stage show lights and effects thing, and the cloning machine Jackman got was a fluke invention. I vaguely remember being unsure about it on my first viewing too, but it has become obvious on rewatches. The way they split up Borden's life is pretty great, with the wife noticing the not-so-subtle differences between the two. Borden's story is definitely told more subtly in the movie, as opposed to Angier and his ambition-fueled army of suicidal clones.
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Apr 28, 2017 15:02
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I've seen the movie twice and both times I came away with the assumption that the Bordens were just regular twins. If people are really serious here about there being a subtle implication that they're actually clones then maybe I need to rewatch it.
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Apr 28, 2017 15:18
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I guess I have to watch this movie again, because I don't remember that ever occurring to me. It just seemed like he had a very simple solution to what Angier was completely baffled over and came up with an extremely complex and unnecessary solution to duplicate (get it??  )Not to mention that them just being twins fits in with the movie's themes way more than "he just met Bowie and used the machine first!"
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Apr 28, 2017 15:20
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Unless I missed something huge, the Bordens are just twins. If Borden had somehow met Tesla and undergone the same procedure with a similar machine then why would he be so obsessed with finding out how Angier's trick works? It doesn't add up. I thought the whole Tesla angle was Borden sending Angier on a wild goose chase, and Tesla taking advantage of Angier's obsession since he was in need of money after Edison's sabotage.
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Apr 28, 2017 15:27
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Basebf555 posted:I've seen the movie twice and both times I came away with the assumption that the Bordens were just regular twins. If people are really serious here about there being a subtle implication that they're actually clones then maybe I need to rewatch it. No they're definitely just regular twins, and people are being idiots ITT
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Apr 28, 2017 15:29
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Yeah, I mean, the whole point of the movie is that you're expecting there to be some OMG EPIC TWIST but the answer is very simple and obvious and inevitably disappointing once you know it. They're just regular twins who are incredibly dedicated.
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Apr 28, 2017 15:46
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Yeah, it just doesn't add up for all the reasons Rap Record Hoarder lists. They're twins and have lived their "act" from birth. Borden certainly hadn't gone to see Tesla way back before one of him ties the death knot on Angier's wife. He was just a glorified stage hand at the time.
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Apr 28, 2017 15:55
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The directors cut ending just has Angier saying gently caress it and cloning a 100 pound note over and over until he becomes the world's first trillionaire.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:32
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WeAreTheRomans posted:No they're definitely just regular twins, and people are being idiots ITT Yeah. Was it not subtle enough that Borden's journal literally says "Tesla is just the key to this journal you doofus"
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Apr 28, 2017 19:01
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