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TyrantWD
Nov 6, 2010


This has been on my "to read" shelf for ages, but I never got around to it, and once I found out it was being made into a TV show I decided to hold off until after the show is done. I have to say - I'm hooked.

i wasn't a fan of Ricky Whittle on The 100, but he is doing a much better job here.

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GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.


1stGear posted:

Even smart people have real dumb ideas frequently. The important part is that they listened to someone else and realized their idea was dumb.

Yeah. Go look up Vince Gilligan's original plan for Season 1 of Breaking Bad and realize that even smart people need to be reigned in and be told "that's really loving dumb, dude" sometimes.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



Yeah, good ideas are often arrived at by leaving a large trail of terrible ideas, that's just part of the writing process, and it seems to have worked exactly as intended.

nessin
Feb 7, 2010


Since I'm now re-listening to audiobook following last nights episode it's interesting to see some of the very very small differences between the text given how closely it matches up. For example in the bar scene when Sweeney responds to the Leprechaun dig the book (at least the audiobook) only notes that they don't come from Moscow, whereas the show they added the Moscow, Idaho part on top of it.

Likewise when Wednesday and Shadow are in the car and Shadow asks what happened to his rental in the book Wednesday says Sweeney was returning it, as part of the deal from last night. Whereas the TV show Wednesday just says he ditched it. Which is a really weird change and I'm wondering if that will prove significant in the TV show (maybe trouble with cops down the road because of it?) because otherwise the change makes it seem like Shadow is casually okay with the idea that he may now be in legal trouble when he's done a lot to avoid it up to that point.

Edit:
It's also hard to think of Wednesday as Wednesday. I mean he spends most of the book under that name but I guess whenever I've discussed the book with others who've read it I just go with his actual name or mentally translate it even if I type/say Wednesday. Had to double-check this as I wrote it down to make sure I was actually using Wednesday.

nessin fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 16:14

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.


1stGear posted:

Even smart people have real dumb ideas frequently. The important part is that they listened to someone else and realized their idea was dumb.

Exactly. No writer bats a thousand on his own. They don't even bat .300 on their own. Writing is often a collaborative process; even if you're writing a novel, you've got editors, you've got beta readers, you might have an agent and/or a manager offering advice, and that's only a problem if you can't tell good advice from bad. Filters make bad ideas good and good ideas better, and that's the way it's worked since people first started telling stories.

The flip side of this—being so powerful and singular that nobody knows how to say "no" to you—is Aaron Sorkin and George Lucas.

Fuller and Green thought something made sense from a character perspective. Gaiman explained, very clearly (and yes, forcefully), why it didn't make sense. Fuller and Green agreed and came up with something better that honored the spirit of what they wanted to do without desecrating Gaiman's characters. That's the creative process working as intended.

There will be other bad ideas that you will never know about because most of them will be stamped out before they make it to screen, because that is the way it works on every show you like. If you start to feel like more lovely ideas are making it to the screen than good ideas, then we can talk. Until then, there are plenty of other things that are actually worth being scared of.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013

Girl you know you gotta watch your health


I thought the premiere was pretty great. There was a lot I loved; Shadow whenever he talked to someone, a lot of the cinematography, and the Technical Boy's appearance. Audrey and Low Key were both amazing. I loved how angry Audrey was in her scene, and I want to see more contrast between the careful, articulate Shadow who befriends Low Key and the laconic version he presents to the free world. At the same time though it felt a bit less refined than Hannibal's pilot; I didn't get a particularly strong impression of Mr. Wednesday (as great as Ian McShane is, the scene where Shadow vehemently rebuffs him fell a bit flat, since they'd had one conversation to date). I also would've liked a bit more time with Laura Moon.

Wanton speculation: LOST and Hannibal veteran, not to mention all-around MVP Jeremy Davies is playing Jesus later in this season. Big character for a potential cameo. Considering Bryan Fuller's skill at reworking established narratives, and the white-and-blue fabric cloaking Laura in her scene, could she be Mary?

Gonz posted:

I'm half expecting Raúl Esparza to pop up on this show.

what if Chilton ends up nearly murdered (again) after a date with his sunny debutante girlfriend he met at the pie shop

showbiz_liz
Jun 2, 2008


precision posted:

The soundtrack is awesome though?

The thing that took me from 'this will probably be good' to 'I cannot loving wait for this' was when they announced that Brian Reitzell would be doing the soundtrack. He also did the soundtrack for Hannibal and that was one of the things that made the show for me.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


Arist posted:

I dunno, they might take it out because McShane is just too affable a presence but in the book that was the moment that made me finally go "man, Wednesday actually kinda sucks." It's important for that reason at least.

Cocksucker, have you even seen Deadwood?

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Zaphod42 posted:

Cocksucker, have you even seen Deadwood?

I meant in this but point taken

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Grimey Drawer

showbiz_liz posted:

The thing that took me from 'this will probably be good' to 'I cannot loving wait for this' was when they announced that Brian Reitzell would be doing the soundtrack. He also did the soundtrack for Hannibal and that was one of the things that made the show for me.

I don't really care about Reitzell's original music (it's not bad it's just serviceable) but the man has amazing tarantino-like powers of picking the perfect songs off a shelf for a scene. Every classical song he picked out for Hannibal felt like an essay of characterization, communicated in the language of music the way you or I would write in English.

Steve Yun fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 19:41

Golli
Jan 5, 2013



Grimey Drawer

I read the book a long time ago. I remembered that it was a cool premise, and enjoyed the book. But aside from that, I didn't remember much in the way of detail beyond Wednesday=Odin, and Ian McShane merits giving it a chance.

I did something unusual (for me) in that I avoided spoilers and didn't watch all the promotional materials in an attempt to relive the 'cool-ness' of having the story unfold.
Despite really wanting to love it, it dug a bit of a hole followup episodes will need to dig out of. I got a real sense of using visuals as a substitute and not an enhancement to the storytelling in a lot of areas. Lots of visual effects with lots of symbolism that undoubtedly means a lot to the Literature PhDs and Tele-Cinematic Analysis Goons, but just added to the noise for me. I still think the premise of the setting is good, and I really hope they do more in the way of beginning to tie the threads together in the show itself, and not counting on the promotional material and the book to do the lifting there.

As far as Audrey goes, I don't recall if her botoxed upper lip was part of her characterization in the book, but it was extremely distracting - I can't really say how well she pulled off the scene because I was trying to see if that thing ever moved when she talked/emoted.

Someone previously mentioned they hope that Wednesday doesn't use his power to sleep with whomever he wants, because that would be creepy (by today's standards). But that is the root cause of the whole pickle the gods find themselves in. They are who they are - they don't change because of society. Their task is to persuade/trick/intimidate society into accepting and worshipping them as they have been, are, and will continue to be. So if they showrummers have Wednesday change from the womanizing, jealous, strong, angry god that would be recognizable to the Vikings in the first scene they will have failed in their characterization.

e: spoiler tagged, thanks Arist

Golli fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 19:50

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



I mean, it's a really obvious spoiler but you should probably mark it anyway.

Ubiquitous_
Nov 20, 2013


Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Old English or the origins of the names of each day would guess that one, though. I think the show spells it out pretty well in the first ep.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006

THE CLAMPS!
or clamp like device




I don't think it's a spoiler, it's pretty obvious. "What's today, Wednesday? It's my day!"

Wednesday > Wodensday > Woden > Odin.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


That added intro bit did make it even more clear, and like I said the marketing seemed to almost spoil all the characters before we've even seen them. Like they were advertising that Peter Stormare is Czernobog which kinda spoils that Czernobog is gonna be a character in the show itself. Not that its any huge mystery, but it still seemed a little weird to me. But we're in the age of the internet where everybody can google things, and with character names being what they are its hard to keep any of that a secret.

Still, people not familiar with mythology may not put the pieces together.

Cojawfee posted:

I don't think it's a spoiler, it's pretty obvious. "What's today, Wednesday? It's my day!"

Wednesday > Wodensday > Woden > Odin.

I think you should tag that. Every spoiler is obvious if you already know it. Its less obvious to people who aren't thinking about that because they have no reason to second guess it.

But I also think wednesday's identity is way more obivous than lowkey's, as long as they avoid actually saying his name, which so far they have on the show

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

Power Gamer for Hire


Cojawfee posted:

I don't think it's a spoiler, it's pretty obvious. "What's today, Wednesday? It's my day!"

Wednesday > Wodensday > Woden > Odin.

There's a huge percentage of the population who don't know that. It certainly is a spoiler.

404notfound
Mar 5, 2006

stop staring at me

thread bad at spoilers

dead comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


a lot of people have no knowledge whatsoever of norse mythology so yeah it is good to cut that poo poo down

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006

THE CLAMPS!
or clamp like device




I find it hard to believe that a "huge percentage" of the population has never heard of the meanings behind the days of the week. I've never read the books, I didn't learn anything about this show beforehand and I never looked up who plays any of the characters and I got it as soon as he said it was his day.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Grimey Drawer

Cojawfee posted:

I find it hard to believe that a "huge percentage" of the population has never heard of the meanings behind the days of the week. I've never read the books, I didn't learn anything about this show beforehand and I never looked up who plays any of the characters and I got it as soon as he said it was his day.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-ignoran...americans-66053

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.


Cojawfee posted:

I find it hard to believe that a "huge percentage" of the population has never heard of the meanings behind the days of the week.



A huge percentage of the population doesn't give a poo poo about the days of the week and doesn't bother to learn about it. What loving bubble do you live in?

You know why the OP asked us to lay off the book talk? Because of arguments like this. I don't even give a poo poo that I know what I know; in fact, knowing makes this show a bit cooler for me. But how am I supposed to ignore a conceited-rear end remark like that?

My God.

biracial bear for uncut
Jun 9, 2009
EVERYTHING THIS DIPSHIT POSTS IS



BLOCK/IGNORE THEM IMMEDIATELY



jng2058 posted:

There's a huge percentage of the population who don't know that. It certainly is a spoiler.

What'll really get people going is if there is a Christmas episode and we get into the overlap between Santa Claus and Odin (what with the myths of the former borrowing a lot from the latter's Wild Hunt and the giving of gifts in exchange for food/drink left out for them while they hunt).

double nine
Aug 8, 2013



Anyone among the book readers who tried picking up coin tricks after reading American Gods?




I should try learning those tricks again properly.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006

THE CLAMPS!
or clamp like device




DivisionPost posted:



A huge percentage of the population doesn't give a poo poo about the days of the week and doesn't bother to learn about it. What loving bubble do you live in?

You know why the OP asked us to lay off the book talk? Because of arguments like this. I don't even give a poo poo that I know what I know; in fact, knowing makes this show a bit cooler for me. But how am I supposed to ignore a conceited-rear end remark like that?

My God.

What does this have to do with book talk? I've never read the book. This is why people should keep all book spoilers out of the thread. I took something from the show and made a prediction just like what happens in every TVIV thread. No one ever uses spoiler tags for what they think is going to happen.

Cojawfee fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 21:11

Golli
Jan 5, 2013



Grimey Drawer

biracial bear for uncut posted:

What'll really get people going is if there is a Christmas episode and we get into the overlap between Santa Claus and Odin (what with the myths of the former borrowing a lot from the latter's Wild Hunt and the giving of gifts in exchange for food/drink left out for them while they hunt).

Ah so that explains why Christmas sometimes falls on a Wednesday.

Cool.

404notfound
Mar 5, 2006

stop staring at me

double nine posted:

Anyone among the book readers who tried picking up coin tricks after reading American Gods?




I should try learning those tricks again properly.

I tried coin tricks as well as zippo lighter tricks (I know, I know), but after I realized that I'm just a fidgety guy and need something to do with my hands, I got into the wacky world of fidget spinners. You don't have to go insane with the collections or the tactilol EDC kits like some of the folk in that subreddit, but having a chunk of plastic/metal that I can absentmindedly flick back and forth with one hand has actually helped a lot with my concentration at work.

tin can made man
Apr 12, 2005

why don't you ask him
about his penis


Golli posted:

Someone previously mentioned they hope that Wednesday doesn't use his power to sleep with whomever he wants, because that would be creepy (by today's standards). But that is the root cause of the whole pickle the gods find themselves in. They are who they are - they don't change because of society. Their task is to persuade/trick/intimidate society into accepting and worshipping them as they have been, are, and will continue to be. So if they showrummers have Wednesday change from the womanizing, jealous, strong, angry god that would be recognizable to the Vikings in the first scene they will have failed in their characterization.

I'd say that it's close to the opposite of this, actually. Though I'm a book-reader, I'll try and keep my speculation on the show's intents focused on the show's screen-language and presentation (and thus be intentionally ignorant on certain parts, so please don't feel obligated to correct me with black boxes).

It's not that these American Gods are the gods of the old world who have become abandoned by the American people, but the versions of those gods brought to the country by its many immigrants. It's not that figures like Wednesday and Mad Sweeny were made in some primordial image eons ago and have to trick others into worshipping them, but rather that their very being was crafted by the perceptions of their worshippers in the New World - and yes, now they have to coerce worship, but their faults and flaws were created in them by the mortals who "created" them.

We see the lost vikings in the opening create a crude and simple version of Wotan the All-Father, a gallows god who is fickle and cruel, who delights in sacrifice, service and submission, and the wanton bloodshed of those wishing to earn his favor. And so, the Wednesday of America (if indeed we're meant to assume that the two characters are one in the same, but again this seems to be what the show is telling us based on Wednesday's one eye, his urging of the fight between Shadow and Sweeney, and his refusal to do things - especially travel - on any terms beyond his own) exemplifies these qualities. One assumes that if there is a European Odin, his personality may be more informed by the much wider mythology available to the people that once worshipped him there, as opposed to a band of desperate and cruel vikings. Similarly, there may indeed be a Jesus Christ walking among America who is lily-white, polite, and suspiciously mute on the topics of gun rights and nationalism, whereas the Jesus Christ of Latin America may be coated in blood, darker-skinned, and possibly tinged with a bit of Santeria.

The gods in this show aren't universal constants who descend to find followers, but are instead crafted through the very act of "worship". We see this with the unnamed, presumptive "New God" that abducts Shadow. He appears to be representative of technology, but not in the industrial or progressive sense, but the conspicuous nouveau-tech, obsessed with the bleeding edge and the co-option of popular imagery (he's the traditional 'boss' smoking in the back of a limo, his goons are corrupted versions of A Clockwork Orange's Droogs - both are classic images of crime that an adolescent would be obsessed over).

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Grimey Drawer

That's a fantastic take

Golli
Jan 5, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Agreed.

I don't think our points are opposing.

At this point the ruleset of the setting is not clear. Based on what we have seen, gods are created somehow - but once created they must have worshippers to remain powerful, and thus relevant. My point is that if a god (once brought into existence) can remain relevant by changing their core personality traits (and associated powers) then the source of conflict in the setting is nullified.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


Cojawfee posted:

I find it hard to believe that a "huge percentage" of the population has never heard of the meanings behind the days of the week.

Stop being obtuse. Most people don't give a poo poo where names came from.

tin can made man posted:

It's not that these American Gods are the gods of the old world who have become abandoned by the American people, but the versions of those gods brought to the country by its many immigrants. It's not that figures like Wednesday and Mad Sweeny were made in some primordial image eons ago and have to trick others into worshipping them, but rather that their very being was crafted by the perceptions of their worshippers in the New World - and yes, now they have to coerce worship, but their faults and flaws were created in them by the mortals who "created" them.

At risk of book talk, The ending of the book makes this abundantly clear. Wednesday is not Odin. He is me, but I am not him. Hence, American Gods.

tin can made man posted:

The gods in this show aren't universal constants who descend to find followers, but are instead crafted through the very act of "worship". We see this with the unnamed, presumptive "New God" that abducts Shadow. He appears to be representative of technology, but not in the industrial or progressive sense, but the conspicuous nouveau-tech, obsessed with the bleeding edge and the co-option of popular imagery (he's the traditional 'boss' smoking in the back of a limo, his goons are corrupted versions of A Clockwork Orange's Droogs - both are classic images of crime that an adolescent would be obsessed over).

And Wednesday's monologue about the airplanes is already trying to highlight this and poke holes in it

Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 21:40

tin can made man
Apr 12, 2005

why don't you ask him
about his penis


Golli posted:

Agreed.

I don't think our points are opposing.

At this point the ruleset of the setting is not clear. Based on what we have seen, gods are created somehow - but once created they must have worshippers to remain powerful, and thus relevant. My point is that if a god (once brought into existence) can remain relevant by changing their core personality traits (and associated powers) then the source of conflict in the setting is nullified.

Oh yeah, this seems accurate. I just thought you meant the Gods were older and static, and their whole shtick has been to always coerce mortals into worship. Yeah, the cycle seems to be "people come to a country, or what is defined and understood by its people to be a country, start praying, then eventually abandon the gods they birthed as they become more interested in This Thing or That One" - the new focuses of attention, then of course, become another sort of "god". There might be weak Proto-Odins or whatever stuck on little islands across the world or comic-book-toned Golems in Manhattan from the 40s. Maybe there's a Haitian Legba wandering Florida who has a strange kinship or rivalry with White St. Peter. Vape Boy may be as equally disdainful of Wednesday and "his kind" as he is of Uncle Sam or Manifest Destiny.


Zaphod42 posted:

At risk of book talk, The ending of the book makes this abundantly clear. Wednesday is not Odin. He is me, but I am not him. Hence, American Gods.

tin can made man posted:

Though I'm a book-reader, I'll try and keep my speculation on the show's intents focused on the show's screen-language and presentation (and thus be intentionally ignorant on certain parts, so please don't feel obligated to correct me with black boxes).

tin can made man fucked around with this message at May 1, 2017 around 22:04

Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



Joust posted:

He was also Boon in Justified and gently caress that guy.

Oh god, that's where I know him from. Actor does an amazing job of 'unsettling rear end in a top hat'

Aardark
Aug 5, 2004



Cojawfee posted:

I don't think it's a spoiler, it's pretty obvious. "What's today, Wednesday? It's my day!"
My word, things like that are obvious to you? You must be quite smart.

Captain_Person
Apr 7, 2013

That was a BAD business decision!


tin can made man posted:

Similarly, there may indeed be a Jesus Christ walking among America who is lily-white, polite, and suspiciously mute on the topics of gun rights and nationalism, whereas the Jesus Christ of Latin America may be coated in blood, darker-skinned, and possibly tinged with a bit of Santeria.

From what I can recall multiple actors of varying ethnicities have been cast as Jesus so I wouldn't be surprised if we get something at least very similar to this.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006

THE CLAMPS!
or clamp like device




Aardark posted:

My word, things like that are obvious to you? You must be quite smart.

It's not even an obscure fact. It's one of the first things listed on the Wikipedia page for any of the days of the week.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

This avatar was paid for by the Silent Majority.

I was disappointed that there was no Redtube god.

Dancer
May 23, 2011


Cojawfee posted:

It's not even an obscure fact. It's one of the first things listed on the Wikipedia page for any of the days of the week.

Dude, you're being obnoxious. Of all the things an average person may have randomly learned and retained during their lifetime, linguistic/mythological roots of random words are really not on the more likely end of the spectrum.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Grimey Drawer

Cojawfee posted:

It's not even an obscure fact. It's one of the first things listed on the Wikipedia page for any of the days of the week.

Look at this nerd who thinks the average person would look up the definition of Wednesday on Wikipedia for some reason

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


I never read the book, but given the opening scene, it was pretty loving obvious that somebody would be present, especially with 'Gods' in the title and the whole commentary on getting his attention to this new world. I wasn't expecting him to show up so soon, but once he made the eye comment it was obvious.

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Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

"TELL ME HOW TO GET PIG SEMEN OUT OF SUEDE" Club soda, fucktard.

Regarding Mr. Wednesday: as someone who read the book when it came out, I remembered.

My better half, who is generally much smarter than myself and has been primed for this idea with recent viewings of Vikings, Thor, a Norse play through of CK2, and recently saw an episode of Nova dedicated to Norse mythology and she obviously didn't pick this up. I remember it being a pretty big reveal in the book, so if you just expect people to know that off-hand (even with the prologue), you're being a dick.

If you expect goons to know that: you haven't read tviv...

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