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Jmcrofts
Jan 7, 2008

just chillin' in the club

Lipstick Apathy

Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn posted:

I saw this yesterday too, I'm hoping since that's from a month ago they know about it and it won't be in the home version, even with full meter a 95% combo is probably a little much

Eh, full meter plus it's off a charged focus attack, plus it requires the wall, in a 3/5 game I don't think it's too much of a problem.

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Trykt
Jul 30, 2000

Still training..


I also think it's totally fine and the only part of that combo that even partially bothers me is the repeated dash - jab carry working so deep into the combo. I guess that's a side effect of how long the opponent was actually still standing for that combo, which is just a weird thing about Akuma's Focus/FADC combos. Extended guaranteed ground hits mostly don't happen in Tekken, you gotta launch for your damage, but Akuma gets to break the rules a little since he's an SF shithead. I guess we might see similar things from Eliza since she's the only other character with a meter mechanic.

Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn
Jul 11, 2006

You may not know it yet, but I'm your worst nightmare.

Jmcrofts posted:

Eh, full meter plus it's off a charged focus attack, plus it requires the wall, in a 3/5 game I don't think it's too much of a problem.

Hopefully you're right, I want him to be good and all but not just walk all over everybody else.

DizzyBum
Apr 16, 2007

Archen used Flail!
It's super-effective!




Trykt posted:

Gonna share some generally important lessons for newer peeps that I've learned from playing Tekken and 3D fighting games in general over the years . Some/all of this might seem super obvious but I promise each of these bullet points was a genuine fuckin' epiphany for me at some point:
  • Learn your punishes first - If you can't consistently punish unsafe moves then people WILL abuse them against you. Make sure you can at least attempt to do basic punishment, which includes knowing which moves you can actually punish with a combo instead of a single hit or string.
  • Block high, react to lows - This is kind of upside-down from 2D games. Your general goal on defense is to default to stand blocking to defend against highs and mids, and react to throws with a break input and react to lows (which are generally slowish moves) with a low block or low parry (then punish).
  • Mids are the baseline of your offense - As above, lows are generally slower/riskier, and High hitting moves generally have great properties but will always have the liability of being duckable which can lead to punishes/interrupts of varying severity. You need to threaten with mid hitting attacks very often to keep the opponent honest.
  • Strings that include highs after the first hit are mostly bad - Corollary to the previous point, but anytime you show the opponent a canned string that includes an obvious high (or low, for that matter) you're asking to get hit. There are strings that allow you to do different inputs to mix between a high or mid or even a low, or sometimes a stance change, and those are generally fine pressure tools. But if you try to use a mid-high thing as a go-to poke you're gonna get bopped.
  • Learn to convert off wall hits - Something that really intimidated me about learning TTT2 was figuring out how to alter my combos to include walls, but it turns out this is really easy. Every character will have 1 or 2 moves/strings that are basically meant to "pick up" a combo on an opponent that splats on a wall and you basically just go straight into this ASAP when the wall hit happens, then finish with a combo ender. Then it's oki as usual, that's it.

I hope that's helpful to somebody! Please ask questions if anything is unclear.

As someone that has zero Tekken experience (aside from occasionally dropping quarters in Tekken 4 many years ago), this is super-helpful. Thanks!

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Christ, not this shit again.

Lipstick Apathy

Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn posted:

I saw this yesterday too, I'm hoping since that's from a month ago they know about it and it won't be in the home version, even with full meter a 95% combo is probably a little much

It's OK bc most of the people who pick Akuma are going to be bad.

Trykt posted:

Gonna share some generally important lessons for newer peeps that I've learned from playing Tekken and 3D fighting games in general over the years . Some/all of this might seem super obvious but I promise each of these bullet points was a genuine fuckin' epiphany for me at some point:
  • Learn your punishes first - If you can't consistently punish unsafe moves then people WILL abuse them against you. Make sure you can at least attempt to do basic punishment, which includes knowing which moves you can actually punish with a combo instead of a single hit or string.
  • Block high, react to lows - This is kind of upside-down from 2D games. Your general goal on defense is to default to stand blocking to defend against highs and mids, and react to throws with a break input and react to lows (which are generally slowish moves) with a low block or low parry (then punish).
  • Mids are the baseline of your offense - As above, lows are generally slower/riskier, and High hitting moves generally have great properties but will always have the liability of being duckable which can lead to punishes/interrupts of varying severity. You need to threaten with mid hitting attacks very often to keep the opponent honest.
  • Strings that include highs after the first hit are mostly bad - Corollary to the previous point, but anytime you show the opponent a canned string that includes an obvious high (or low, for that matter) you're asking to get hit. There are strings that allow you to do different inputs to mix between a high or mid or even a low, or sometimes a stance change, and those are generally fine pressure tools. But if you try to use a mid-high thing as a go-to poke you're gonna get bopped.
  • Learn to convert off wall hits - Something that really intimidated me about learning TTT2 was figuring out how to alter my combos to include walls, but it turns out this is really easy. Every character will have 1 or 2 moves/strings that are basically meant to "pick up" a combo on an opponent that splats on a wall and you basically just go straight into this ASAP when the wall hit happens, then finish with a combo ender. Then it's oki as usual, that's it.

I hope that's helpful to somebody! Please ask questions if anything is unclear.

Good post, though the thing about not using strings with highs isn't really true because a lot of those strings jail (i.e. if it's a 2-hit string that's Mid-High, and I block the Mid, I can't duck the High; I'm forced to block it). Mid pokes are definitely good and important so people don't duck all the time, but I wouldn't make the blanket statement that using highs is bad.

Dr. Gitmo Moneyson
Jun 26, 2005

Feels good man.



Dammit, I don't have a PS4 or an XBox One and I won't be able to afford either for a long time.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001





Dr. Gitmo Moneyson posted:

Dammit, I don't have a PS4 or an XBox One and I won't be able to afford either for a long time.

Its on pc too

Dr. Gitmo Moneyson
Jun 26, 2005

Feels good man.




HAHAHAHAHAHA no.

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

Dr. Gitmo Moneyson posted:

HAHAHAHAHAHA no.

?

Lasher
Aug 13, 2003



Bleep posted:

Kazumi / Devil Kazumi is easy to beat in the arcade version of the game. She is pretty much a standard Tekken character rather than a giant mess like Azazel.

Thanks dude.

This was literally a deal breaker for me. I'm far too crap and old with dusty green bones to be playing online against actual people so I'll just be beasting 1player mode.

Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



Trykt posted:

Gonna share some generally important lessons for newer peeps that I've learned from playing Tekken and 3D fighting games in general over the years . Some/all of this might seem super obvious but I promise each of these bullet points was a genuine fuckin' epiphany for me at some point:

  • Strings that include highs after the first hit are mostly bad - Corollary to the previous point, but anytime you show the opponent a canned string that includes an obvious high (or low, for that matter) you're asking to get hit. There are strings that allow you to do different inputs to mix between a high or mid or even a low, or sometimes a stance change, and those are generally fine pressure tools. But if you try to use a mid-high thing as a go-to poke you're gonna get bopped.

There ARE some mid to high strings that are okay though, namely ones that jail, meaning if you block them standing you can't duck the high.

The post is bang on though, everything in this will improve you massively starting out.

inthesto
May 12, 2010

There is a point where we needed to stop, and we have clearly passed it.

BUT LET'S KEEP GOING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!



He's probably laughing about how his computer is way too crappy to run this game

On a separate note, here's a tier list that was put together in February by a bunch of top Japanese players:



Obviously tier lists aren't law (because if they were he'd be top (heheheheheh)), but this is a nice diagram that's easy to read. There's some stuff by top Korean players out there, but they're not in nice image format.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001





miguel isn't in arcades yet?

Elvis_Maximus
Oct 7, 2007


Wasn't back when the list was put together anyway!

I wonder how the game shakes out now actually, I think there's been a patch in the past 3 months?

Trykt
Jul 30, 2000

Still training..


I appreciate the corrections and additional information, duders!

Just to follow up on the wall conversion thing on my post, I wanted to give some examples:

Here is a full combo by Asuka that ends with a wall splat, where she goes right into a specific string that both keeps them up and pinned to the wall and does great damage to finish the combo:
https://youtu.be/oFwuZLIfjzw?t=1846

Note that while that was a long combo, if Steve had hit the wall at any earlier point in the combo, she would have done the exact same thing, abbreviating the combo. Yes, walls are generally thought of as a source of increased damage but they can sometimes reduce the damage you get instead. However, when the opponent's back is close to a wall it can make certain moves of yours way more dangerous because they become combo starters instead of ordinary knockdowns, like so:
https://youtu.be/oFwuZLIfjzw?t=2172

Note Asuka finishes with that same string right away after the wall hit. Every character will have a consistent option like this, you just have to find it. I'd recommend watching match videos for your character to see what they do but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's good for it on your own anyway.

One more clip to drive the point home (Asuka gets two wall conversions in this round!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFwuZLIfjzw#t=2214s


Here's a bonus clip of Steve being fuckin sick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFwuZLIfjzw#t=1689s

Here Steve converts with a simple 2 hit string and then goes into a stance to use a move basically specially designed to be a combo ender at the wall! It owns. Anyway, hope all that helps.

Trykt fucked around with this message at May 11, 2017 around 23:17

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Christ, not this shit again.

Lipstick Apathy

Also the reason particular strings become the go-to for wall damage is that someone can't block if they're splatted against the wall, so strings that wouldn't normally be natural combos or work well in juggles suddenly become viable damage sources on the wall. You don't really even have to lab it if you don't want to because by now someone else has already figured out your character's optimal stuff.

Bleep
Feb 7, 2004



There's no bound at the wall now, so ideal combos after wall splat are usually just 3 to 4 hits. Super quick to learn.

Lothire
Jan 27, 2007

Rx Suicide emailed me and all I got was this amazingly awesome forum account.



Tortured By Flan

Elvis_Maximus posted:

Wasn't back when the list was put together anyway!

I wonder how the game shakes out now actually, I think there's been a patch in the past 3 months?

I believe (possibly erroneously) that he and Lee are console release characters, so they won't show up for arcades until the game is released for consoles.

As well, the console release will be introducing a handful of changes to the game that will be patched into the arcades on release, so that the console release is kind of like a version change/update patch. I think it's mostly character stuff, though there's a thread on zaibatsu about it.

Luna Was Here
Mar 21, 2013

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Lipstick Apathy

Real hurthling! posted:

miguel isn't in arcades yet?

Kuma, Panda, Miguel and Eliza are not yet available in Arcades and are coming with the console version of the game. I assume they'll be added into Arcades then but until then we're in the dark on how good any of those 4 will be

Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



Luna Was Here posted:

Kuma, Panda, Miguel and Eliza are not yet available in Arcades and are coming with the console version of the game. I assume they'll be added into Arcades then but until then we're in the dark on how good any of those 4 will be

I don't think Lee or Eddy are in the arcades either are they?

poe meater
Feb 17, 2011


How hard is Nina and Bryan execution wise anyways?

Bleep
Feb 7, 2004



Spuckuk posted:

I don't think Lee or Eddy are in the arcades either are they?

Nah they aren't. They haven't confirmed for sure if arcade are getting console characters either, they never brought console characters to TTT2. The South East Asia / Australia / New Zealand arcade region never got upgraded to FR either, so we're stuck with vanilla 7.

poe meater posted:

How hard is Nina and Bryan execution wise anyways?

Both of them have some of the hardest execution in the game if you want to use them to their fullest. In 7 Nina has some easier combo options you can use instead and you don't necessarily need all the hardest stuff Bryan has to offer.

I can do Mishima execution without much trouble but I still struggle with these two things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiTf56jhkxc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMAvpYE9puU

Smoking Crow
Feb 13, 2012

*laughs at u*


A thing I like about Tekken is the names of characters

So like in SF you have names like blanka and sagat

In Tekken you have Steve and Bryan

Macarius Wrench
Mar 28, 2017

by Lowtax


And Jack.

And Bruce.

Trykt
Jul 30, 2000

Still training..


As long as Bryan can still do Taunt into f+2,1,4 I don't think I'll ever feel an especially strong need to learn to do Jet Upper instead. I still don't really understand how you're supposed to do a B,F input in 1 frame or whatever!!!!!!!

Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



poe meater posted:

How hard is Nina and Bryan execution wise anyways?

In TTT2 Nina is one of the hardest characters due to her iWS1 loops. It seems like you don't need to have these in 7 to make her usable, so she shouldn't be too hard.

Bryans main difficulty spike is in using his unblockable taunt into Jet Upper launcher, which is a super tricky 1 frame link. HOWEVER, he's perfectly usable without this, and you'll rarely see even high level players attempt it any more (It was far more powerful in older versions of the game).

Kazuya is probably the hardest execution character, just because his EWGF and wavedash are absolutely critical to play him at any level.

Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



Trykt posted:

As long as Bryan can still do Taunt into f+2,1,4 I don't think I'll ever feel an especially strong need to learn to do Jet Upper instead. I still don't really understand how you're supposed to do a B,F input in 1 frame or whatever!!!!!!!

It's a manually timed 1-frame link, you need to hit f, then on the next frame back and right punch to hit the exact 1-frame where it will connect. Taunt b+3 is more lenient and more useful, as it gives you full launch at the wall, where they can't backdash the short range on his taunt.

poe meater
Feb 17, 2011


I should've played Tekken in 05 instead of 3s

inthesto
May 12, 2010

There is a point where we needed to stop, and we have clearly passed it.

BUT LET'S KEEP GOING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!


poe meater posted:

I should've played Tekken in 05 instead of 3s

My thoughts exactly.

I even lived in ATL back then

boxcarhobo
Jun 23, 2005



Macarius Wrench posted:

And Jack.

And Bruce.

no bruce in 7 ;~;

just josie, who is cool, but she doesnt have back 2 so WHATS THE drat POINT

Renoistic
Jul 27, 2007

Everyone has a
guardian angel.


Macarius Wrench posted:

And Jack.

And Bruce.

And Bob.

BattleHamster
Mar 18, 2009



Elvis_Maximus posted:

Wasn't back when the list was put together anyway!

I wonder how the game shakes out now actually, I think there's been a patch in the past 3 months?

https://twitter.com/CircaAnakin/sta...022757323767809

But in reality it has been and will always be

https://twitter.com/tk_saint/status/816417212709748736

DizzyBum
Apr 16, 2007

Archen used Flail!
It's super-effective!




Having fun in a video game? Surely you jest!

Mammalian
Nov 9, 2011

Not just any Jesus Mammalian Jesus


my reality is more like: try to follow my heart, play the characters I like, they're almost ALWAYS either blatantly underpowered, or broken and OP. Once devs learn to balance or hire people for balancing, I'll stop checking up tier lists. I can't go through falling in love with a character then finding out they're useless, again.

inthesto
May 12, 2010

There is a point where we needed to stop, and we have clearly passed it.

BUT LET'S KEEP GOING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!


When your formative years are spent playing 3S Alex, you learn to at least try to avoid "gets mercilessly strangled by the top" tier

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Christ, not this shit again.

Lipstick Apathy

Mammalian posted:

my reality is more like: try to follow my heart, play the characters I like, they're almost ALWAYS either blatantly underpowered, or broken and OP. Once devs learn to balance or hire people for balancing, I'll stop checking up tier lists. I can't go through falling in love with a character then finding out they're useless, again.

I think a lot of people who worry about balance are people who won't ever come close to scraping the skill ceiling with their character of choice anyway.

nogic
Jul 6, 2002


There really aren't any characters in Tekken that are just fundamentally broken and unplayable. Very few fighting games have characters like that. So you can play whoever you want to!

Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn
Jul 11, 2006

You may not know it yet, but I'm your worst nightmare.

Spuckuk posted:

Bryans main difficulty spike is in using his unblockable taunt into Jet Upper launcher, which is a super tricky 1 frame link. HOWEVER, he's perfectly usable without this, and you'll rarely see even high level players attempt it any more (It was far more powerful in older versions of the game).

except Mr. Naps who does it in tournament and it rules

Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn
Jul 11, 2006

You may not know it yet, but I'm your worst nightmare.

Mammalian posted:

my reality is more like: try to follow my heart, play the characters I like, they're almost ALWAYS either blatantly underpowered, or broken and OP. Once devs learn to balance or hire people for balancing, I'll stop checking up tier lists. I can't go through falling in love with a character then finding out they're useless, again.

There aren't really any awful matchups in Tekken and all of the characters are a lot closer in power than tier lists might suggest in other games. Don't worry about it, pick who you wanna play.

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Spuckuk
Aug 11, 2009

Being a bastard works



Ho Chi Minh Holiday Inn posted:

except Mr. Naps who does it in tournament and it rules

Well true. He's so good Koreans compliment him on his movement.

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