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The miniature games industry is a fascinating one, but the people running it often seem to either have no clue what they're doing or to actively hate their customers. For a luxury, niche product, the companies that produce them appear more interested in telling their customers what they want rather than making informed decisions about the industry or market. Further, these companies are also held hostage by their dedicated fanbases, which look upon every change in the rules or design with dread and disdain. What's this thread for then? This thread is the place to go when a company that makes miniature games does something stupid and you want to talk about it. This could be a major revision, a botched release, or just a personal experience with lousy customer service. This is also the thread to talk about comparative design and mechanics between games. While I think most people are fine with some criticism of the games they play in their dedicated threads, they can be distracting from actual discussion of the game so having a dedicated place to talk about why one game does THIS but another game insists on doing THAT means that no toes get stepped on. This is also the thread to go to to ask which games you should try out and to see what's coming on the horizon. Since we don't seem to have a general releases thread, past Death Threads have been a great place for people who follow one game to keep up with the goings on in another and to find gems that they would otherwise miss. And if you have weird experiences playing a game, this is probably a more appropriate place to talk about it than in the thread for the game you were playing. Just trying to play a game of X-Wing when a guy told you that Hitler did nothing wrong? We'd love to hear about it. What's this thread not for? We're not here to pick on any one company. Every company has its pros and cons. This is just a collection of those and to look at the industry in general. This is an exciting time as companies are actually looking to modernize and there are more games on the market and being played than ever before. But why can't anyone seem to match order demand? Why are companies so hesitant to divorce the hobby from the game? Why are mechanics still using design concepts from the 80s? Dramatis Personæ Catalyst Game Labs A small operation that like most small operations in this industry can often be boiled down to a single guy: Randall Bills. This man has a lot of passion for what he does, but is caught between a rock and a hard place. Should he update Battletech to appeal to a wide audience or should he pretty much keep it as it is so as not to risk 30 years of groggy rage. Notable Games: Battletech Boneheaded Moves: Currently working on a new edition of Battletech, but no rules are actually being changed because they're too small to risk losing the dedicated base. They've attempted to circumvent this by releasing an alternative rules set called "Alpha Strike" with more modern play mechanics. They were also working on a brand new miniature game property Leviathans but this seems to have vanished after they got "Palladiumed" by an employee who wanted a new porch. They've also talked about hard plastics for years, but have never committed for ~reasons~. Corvus Belli (thanks Not a Viking!) A Spanish company with a sci-fi skirmish game that launched its third edition some two (?) years ago. The rules and web based army builder is free, with background books and physical copies of the rules available to buy. Money is made by selling relatively expensive models that you don't need that many of (technically). Model count is 10-20, but most players have a lot more because we like versatility and the models are pretty. No silly heroic scale. Comes with a robust tournament system that is updated each season (year) with new missions and tweaks to old ones. Very objective based, meaning you can lose your entire army and still win the game, black ops style. Has some game mechanics (order resource pool, Automatic Reaction Orders) and A LOT of special rules that takes some time to master even for veteran war gamers even though the core rules are very logical. Notable Games: Infinity. Has a sci-fi RPG spin-off and a board game spin-off that is going to be launched in June this year. Boneheaded Moves: They keep putting out new profiles and models no one asked for, even though they are far behind in the production of models that have had rules for years. Many of their female models have a certain "cheesecake" feel to them, with a lot of T&A (the worst part of the manga inspiration). Fantasy Flight Games The "new kids on the block" of the industry. They made their name making board games before securing the Star Wars license and releasing X-Wing. After officially breaking up with Games Workshop, they've now released their own fantasy mass battle game. Notable Games: Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, Runewars Boneheaded Moves: Players are still frustrated by the model used in X-Wing that requires them to buy ships they don't want in order to get upgrade cards they need. They've sworn not to do this in their Runewars miniatures game, but so long as it prints money in X-Wing there's no reason to think that it will stop. The figures in Runewars also have players divided. Some of the sculpts are OK and others are mediocre to bad, but the real issue is that they're not pre-painted. It seems fans were hoping to get the X-Wing treatment and people and burnt out on painting up hordes of soldiers before being able to play a game. Games Workshop The largest name in the industry, everyone knows these guys and most of us got started in the hobby because of them. In fact, "the hobby" has often been ubiquitous with Games Workshop and its products. They've had some highs and lows, but recent changes in leadership and a new edition of 40k have fans cautiously optimistic. Boneheaded Moves: The release of Age of Sigmar was an unmitigated disaster and the rules for it are still terrible, but they actually appear to be listening to what fans want and are trying to avoid the same thing happening with the new edition of 40k. Hawk Wargames (thanks Nifara!) Niche within a niche wargaming company (10mm sci fi!) who love their vehicles and had to employ someone who didn't hate infantry to sculpt their infantry because the first run was so drat bad. They have a reputation for having an enthusiastic convention presence, having no organisational skills of any kind and for their rules suffering from uneven playtesting. In short, they're a small wargames company Notable Games: Dropzone Commander, Dropfleet Commander Boneheaded Moves: The aforementioned infantry. The fact that their kickstarter delivery for Dropfleet was late, and then inconsistent and their communication was poor verging on nonexistent. The biggest screw up with it though was that most people didn't get their stuff until it had already hit retail, and the people who backed for the most money got their stuff last. Which of course is exactly the way to treat people who invest a buttload of cash into your game. Also, Hawk Dave writes rules that can be charitably described as "wobbly", that leave major problems with balance. The traditional mechanism to fixing balance has been releasing randomised card draw mechanics, which are sort of compulsory but lots of people refuse to play with. Mantic Games Kickstarter superstars who are trying to be "Games Workshop but not evil". This of course does not make them an inherently good company. They rely far too much on Kickstarter and several of their supporters are suffering fatigue from long wait times, production and shipping issues, and products not meeting expectations. Notable Games: Kings of War, Warpath Universe Boneheaded Moves: For every decent rule they release, they're contractually obligated to release two bad models. Retailers are hesitant to stock them since most people who play their games just get everything off Kickstarter at a steep discount. Their customer service is garbage, though with the introduction of a ticket system in 2016 this has improved dramatically. While trying to compete against Warhammer 40k, they decided to release two games rather than putting their full weight behind one even though everyone told them again and again that no one wants a sci-fi mass battle game at 28mm scale. Mierce Miniatures (thanks Irate Tree!) Born from the ashes of Maelstrom Games, an online miniatures retailer that, when faced with financial hardship and eventual bankruptcy, conducted sales at obscene discount and continually taking orders on items that were no longer in stock, with no intention of reimbursement (see: phoenixing), Mierce Miniatures is a specialist miniatures company that uses kickstarter to a very large extent, to make finely detailed resin crack. Many of their kickstarters, while several years old, are still in the process of fulfilment… Notable Games: Darklands, Darkholds(?) Boneheaded Moves: As mentioned above, the company arose from a process known as phoenixing (a process common to the UK, due to it not being illegal at the time (may still be legal in the UK?)). As one can imagine; having your money taken, expecting jewel like objects of wonder in return, only to be told it is gone and never to be seen again, breeds no end of ill will. Mierce has been blighted from its very inception. Further, their kickstarters, while communicative, have run for many years after their initial fulfilment promise. That is not to say they have stopped entirely, only that, this poo poo should have been done with by now. Osprey Who needs models when you can just release a different book every week? Osprey is unique in that they focus far more on releasing rules than on releasing figures. That doesn't mean they don't partner with companies to release models for their games, it's just not a focus of their company. More known for historicals than anything else, they've started to dip their toes in fantasy and sci-fi gaming. Notable Games: Frostgrave, Lion Rampant Boneheaded Moves: Most of their games are only 64 pages long. This means that it's common for situations to arise that aren't covered in the rules. The rules themselves also aren't widely test-played, resulting in broken mechanics that don't hold up in competitive play. This has been a major problem with Frostgrave and has caused fans to write dozens of pages of houserules and fixes that should have been part of the core game to begin with. They also have products competing against one another so it can be confusing for customers unfamiliar with the company or its products to know what they should be buying. Wait, which sci-fi skirmish game was I looking for? Privateer Press (thanks Luebbi!) With a focus on the competitive scene, PP pride themselves on writing concise rules that do not leave room for interpretation. They’ve grown a lot since their early days, and have expanded their Warmachine and Hordes brands to several other markets, including card games and RPG’s. Notable Games: Warmachine and Hordes Boneheaded moves: The release of their newest edition last summer was rocky at best. After community outcry they rebalanced an entire faction from the ground up, but others still have lots of internal discrepancies (why should I take X, when Y does more and costs less). Meanwhile they killed their volunteer Pressgang program with no warning, gutted their forums to a barebones affair, and raised prices on new products to 60$ for a single character Warbeast. Right now they’re busy releasing theme-forces, which limit your army composition but give benefits, including free models. The usefulness of these varies from “why would I ever take this” to “I can play what I played already, get ~20% more points and take away my opponent’s advance deployment, gutting certain armies”. Seems fair. Warlord Games These guys are trying to make historic games more palatable to the masses by focusing on "cinematic" gameplay over "historical accuracy". They also have Rick Perry on board who is trying to push the company in new directions with his sci-fi game Gates of Antares and a rumored fantasy game in the future. Notable Games: Bolt Action, Beyond the Gates of Antares Boneheaded Moves: They don't quite have their fingers on the pulse of the market and as a result faced production problems on their samurai skirmish game Test of Honour resulting in shortages to stores. Some changes to Bolt Action 2nd Edition have also left fans less than enthused about the direction the game is going in. I am hardly an expect on the industry and this list is just to get things started. If you would like to add to, or contradict, what I've written about the above companies or would like to add another company, please post below and I'll edit it into the OP. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 03:46
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Missed your safe space, huh? It was only like three hours.
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May 12, 2017 04:18
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Games Workshop is actually good, the thread title got it wrong.
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May 12, 2017 04:46
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Safety Factor posted:Missed your safe space, huh? We've talked about expanding the scope and purpose of the Death Thread for awhile and this seemed like as good an opportunity as any to do so. It's not really meant to be a safe space since criticism and discussion of specific games have been going on in those threads for awhile now. But I liked how the Death Thread talked about miniature gaming and the industry as a whole. We've just been using bagging on GW as an excuse to do that and I don't think it necessary and GW is hardly the only example of lovely behavior in the industry. I'm hoping someone does a nice write-up of Mierce for instance and why you should stay the hell away or what the risks are of getting involved with the guys that do Dystopian Wars.
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May 12, 2017 04:49
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Death threads are for GW. They just are. This is an abomination.
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May 12, 2017 05:02
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"Let no man rashly determine, that unwillingness to be pleased is a proof of understanding…for though peevishness may sometimes justly boast its descent from learning or from wit, it is much oftener of base extraction, the child of vanity, and nurseling of ignorance.” -Samuel Johnson
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May 12, 2017 05:10
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I got scrappers today. Will be trying it out sometime in the next week, maybe tomorrow night. Like all campaign games, it has the same problem of snowballing. But, I'm not sure about the math and upgrade system yet so it might not be so prone to OHKOs as frostgrave was.TKIY posted:Death threads are for GW. They just are. This is an abomination. Why did you close the other thread? Moola isn't even mod yet.
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May 12, 2017 05:14
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Me and the 
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May 12, 2017 05:16
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Hamshot posted:"Let no man rashly determine, that unwillingness to be pleased is a proof of understanding…for though peevishness may sometimes justly boast its descent from learning or from wit, it is much oftener of base extraction, the child of vanity, and nurseling of ignorance.” Please include this at the top of the OP so that you guys can try to remain grounded tia.
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May 12, 2017 05:17
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Why not Privateer Press? I don't follow them close enough but all of my war game nerd friends have been bitching about them for a year or so. Except for the dudes who owrk in the nerdgame industry and praise everything since they don't wanna poo poo on a company they may apply at later.
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May 12, 2017 05:23
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Coolness Averted posted:Why not Privateer Press? I don't follow them close enough but all of my war game nerd friends have been bitching about them for a year or so. Except for the dudes who owrk in the nerdgame industry and praise everything since they don't wanna poo poo on a company they may apply at later. I was hoping someone else would write them up. I don't know anything about them except they bungled the release of their new edition.
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May 12, 2017 05:25
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How can you have a death thread for that which will never die?
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May 12, 2017 05:30
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O this is a "every company is bad" thread. I agree 100% except for GW, for it is good
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May 12, 2017 05:32
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TKIY posted:Death threads are for GW. They just are. This is an abomination. Probably, but that's the world we live in. Chill la Chill posted:I got scrappers today. Will be trying it out sometime in the next week, maybe tomorrow night. Like all campaign games, it has the same problem of snowballing. But, I'm not sure about the math and upgrade system yet so it might not be so prone to OHKOs as frostgrave was. My copy might be here this week. The FLGS got it through his American distributor instead of his British one so it had the later release date. What do you think the solution to snowballing is? Most games attempt some kind of yoyo effect where losing or weaker teams gain extra experience, but it doesn't really make fit better games. This was an issue in Gorkamorka that always kept my friend from wanting to do 2 player campaigns. Hixson posted:How can you have a death thread for that which will never die? It's just a name.
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May 12, 2017 05:35
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Including the quote I gave at the top of the OP would allow the thread to remain grounded, without descending into an echo chamber as the last one was oft-accused of being, to force people to back up their claims with good critique instead of blindly hating a product/company/consumer in order to give themselves an air of superiority over what they're attacking, What say you, Atlas Hugged?
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May 12, 2017 05:40
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I agree with the sentiment but won't be putting the quote in. Feel free to post some pictures of possums though. I might consider adding those to the op.
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May 12, 2017 05:49
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Atlas Hugged posted:I agree with the sentiment but won't be putting the quote in. Feel free to post some pictures of possums though. I might consider adding those to the op. Well, this is very telling. 
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May 12, 2017 05:53
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Atlas Hugged posted:What do you think the solution to snowballing is? Most games attempt some kind of yoyo effect where losing or weaker teams gain extra experience, but it doesn't really make fit better games. This was an issue in Gorkamorka that always kept my friend from wanting to do 2 player campaigns. The two I've been thinking of are both deckbuilding game mechanics. Specifically dominion and nightfall. Dominion of course has your engine slow down as your deck is filled with VPs. Nightfall has a rubber-banding mechanic where "wounds" dealt to you also can be used for a beneficial effect. Tash-Kalar actually has the same mechanic. Course, these are all in the context of a single game but I think they can easily be modified in some fashion for a campaign game. Maybe a set of "lucky boon" cards that allow you to change the result of critical rolls? The thing with these games is that since there's very few dice being rolled compared to others' dice fests, due to how easily characters can get ganked, I can see a couple dice with bonuses being some sort of counterbalance. Could even have more depending on % of "underdog-ness." A set of lucky boons would also mean that people who are ahead would hopefully be incentivized to not bring future teams with points totals much greater than the underdog. Given good math, it could mean being able to choose fewer, but more powerful, characters or having a team of specialists from which to create future teams. Either way, it would still make you want to win but not to bring overwhelming forces to later games.
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May 12, 2017 06:14
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I'm gay
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May 12, 2017 06:22
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Bookmarked and voted 1
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May 12, 2017 06:31
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CGL also publishes Shadowrun, Loren Coleman is less "an employee" and more "a co-founder and (co-?)owner", and they're infamous for stiffing freelancers to this day also sr 5e is garbage, sr anarchy is about half a game, and their battletech line is almost entirely vaporware due to the aforementioned problem with not paying writers and artists
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May 12, 2017 06:34
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Cease to Hope posted:CGL also publishes Shadowrun, Loren Coleman is less "an employee" and more "a co-founder and (co-?)owner", and they're infamous for stiffing freelancers to this day actually, GW is bad
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May 12, 2017 06:36
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Atlas Hugged posted:Games Workshop hmm I'm gonna bet that they are not actually going to avoid the rules for the new edition of 40k being terrible
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May 12, 2017 06:40
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:hmm I'm gonna bet that they are not actually going to avoid the rules for the new edition of 40k being terrible I think the only way to find out is thousands of words of autism followed by enthusiastic fellatio of the spergs by white noise posters.
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May 12, 2017 06:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:We've talked about expanding the scope and purpose of the Death Thread for awhile and this seemed like as good an opportunity as any to do so. It's not really meant to be a safe space since criticism and discussion of specific games have been going on in those threads for awhile now. But I liked how the Death Thread talked about miniature gaming and the industry as a whole. We've just been using bagging on GW as an excuse to do that and I don't think it necessary and GW is hardly the only example of lovely behavior in the industry. I'm hoping someone does a nice write-up of Mierce for instance and why you should stay the hell away or what the risks are of getting involved with the guys that do Dystopian Wars.
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May 12, 2017 07:11
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WotC also just announced that CGL will be creating and releasing some new card game or something based on the Dungeons & Dragons license, so that might give them a bit more cash to shore up Battletech (one could hope). They really do need to go deeper into marketing Alpha Strike and get a new Intro Box Set out there that contains the starter rules for both TW and Alpha Strike... though I think they announced a new Intro Box was coming at some point in the near future anyway. You could probably also mention that the CGL dude is also sorta infamous for embezzling company money to build extensions onto his house, though he's apparently "reformed" now  Safety Factor posted:Your dedication to this sad gimmick of a thread is astounding. it's me i'm the person who is angry about threads
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May 12, 2017 07:18
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Drone posted:WotC also just announced that CGL will be creating and releasing some new card game or something based on the Dungeons & Dragons license, so that might give them a bit more cash to shore up Battletech (one could hope). They really do need to go deeper into marketing Alpha Strike and get a new Intro Box Set out there that contains the starter rules for both TW and Alpha Strike... though I think they announced a new Intro Box was coming at some point in the near future anyway. Actually, GW is bad
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May 12, 2017 07:19
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They named the 8th death thread 3rd edition
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May 12, 2017 07:23
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Atlas Hugged posted:I was hoping someone else would write them up. I don't know anything about them except they bungled the release of their new edition. I’ve got you, fam. Privateer Press With a focus on the competitive scene, PP pride themselves on writing concise rules that do not leave room for interpretation. They’ve grown a lot since their early days, and have expanded their Warmachine and Hordes brands to several other markets, including card games and RPG’s. Notable Games: Warmachine and Hordes Boneheaded moves: the release of their newest edition last summer was rocky at best. After community outcry they rebalanced an entire faction from the ground up, but others still have lots of internal discrepancies (why should I take X, when Y does more and costs less). Meanwhile they killed their volunteer Pressgang program with no warning, gutted their forums to a barebones affair, and raised prices on new products to 60$ for a single character Warbeast. Right now they’re busy releasing theme-forces, which limit your army composition but give benefits, including free models. The usefulness of these varies from “why would I ever take this” to “I can play what I played already, get ~20% more points and take away my opponent’s advance deployment, gutting certain armies”. Seems fair.
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May 12, 2017 07:29
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Atlas Hugged posted:We've talked about expanding the scope and purpose of the Death Thread for awhile and this seemed like as good an opportunity as any to do so. It's not really meant to be a safe space since criticism and discussion of specific games have been going on in those threads for awhile now. But I liked how the Death Thread talked about miniature gaming and the industry as a whole. We've just been using bagging on GW as an excuse to do that and I don't think it necessary and GW is hardly the only example of lovely behavior in the industry. I'm hoping someone does a nice write-up of Mierce for instance and why you should stay the hell away or what the risks are of getting involved with the guys that do Dystopian Wars. LOL
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May 12, 2017 07:32
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Atlas Hugged posted:Their inferior, plebian minds cannot comprehend nor fathom the higher evolutionary culture of which we post amongst, just as they post amongst the mundane of their 8th edition rulesets. 
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May 12, 2017 07:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:The miniature games industry is a fascinating one, but the people running it often seem to either have no clue what they're doing or to actively hate their customers. For a luxury, niche product, the companies that produce them appear more interested in telling their customers what they want rather than making informed decisions about the industry or market. Further, these companies are also held hostage by their dedicated fanbases, which look upon every change in the rules or design with dread and disdain. This OP truly is grandiose in a niche
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May 12, 2017 08:07
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Drone posted:WotC also just announced that CGL will be creating and releasing some new card game or something based on the Dungeons & Dragons license, so that might give them a bit more cash to shore up Battletech (one could hope). They really do need to go deeper into marketing Alpha Strike and get a new Intro Box Set out there that contains the starter rules for both TW and Alpha Strike... though I think they announced a new Intro Box was coming at some point in the near future anyway. Cease to Hope posted:CGL also publishes Shadowrun, Loren Coleman is less "an employee" and more "a co-founder and (co-?)owner", and they're infamous for stiffing freelancers to this day CGL is one of those companies that I really want to like but just can't bring myself to do it. The 25th Anniversary Battletech box was a drat fine product, but everything else about them is terrible, from their release schedule drying up to stiffing freelancers to the embezzlement issues. Maybe they're finally digging themselves out of their financial hole with the licensed products they've been trying to get out, but they've got a long way to go to win back the goodwill of the industry. Seriously, stiffing freelancers is about the dumbest thing you can do in an industry this small since everyone knows everyone and word spreads fast. Also, was it Randy himself who was stealing funds? I alluded to it in the OP with my "Palladium" comment, but I thought it was a different member of staff. ijyt posted:They named the 8th death thread 3rd edition I didn't want to go count how many iterations we've had and went with a reference to DnD 3e and 40k 3e being major breaks in design philosophy from their predecessors. It seemed appropriate since I wanted the focus of this thread to change. Luebbi posted:I’ve got you, fam. Thanks. Added to the OP. The one thing I heard that they were doing was making you buy larger boxsets and eliminating blisters or individual units and they were doing this with the express purpose of reducing SKUs so that retailers would have an easier time stocking them. Does this tie into any of what you wrote and does it make it harder or more expensive to buy a competitive force? Safety Factor posted:Your dedication to this sad gimmick of a thread is astounding. I guess I don't know why the somethingawful dot com dead comedy forums wouldn't want a thread where we discussed all the idiocy in this industry. It seems like a plentiful source of content. Reaper is still having production issues with Bones 3 from what I've heard. There's a one man show calling themselves Ral Partha and that has all sorts of potential for disaster. Mantic is in the middle of yet another Kickstarter that can have shipping and fulfillment issues even though they still have 2 unfinished ones. I find it fascinating.
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May 12, 2017 08:09
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Luebbi posted:I’ve got you, fam. Actually, GW is bad.
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May 12, 2017 08:17
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Atlas Hugged posted:I guess I don't know why the somethingawful dot com dead comedy forums wouldn't want a thread where we discussed all the idiocy in this industry. It seems like a plentiful source of content. Here's a crazy idea: talk about them in the relevant threads! Crazy idea I know!  But I guess that would open you up to opposing viewpoints and having to back up claims. How can you say with a straight face that this thread, and the ones before it, are not designed to be fluffy echo chambers? Why didn't you remake the thread in YCS, with threads it shares more in common with rather than trad games? Smother this thread in the crib with a pillow.
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May 12, 2017 08:25
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Hamshot posted:Here's a crazy idea: talk about them in the relevant threads! Crazy idea I know! 
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May 12, 2017 08:27
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May 12, 2017 08:28
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Atlas Hugged posted:We've talked about expanding the scope and purpose of the Death Thread for awhile 1. who is we 1a. is it the voices in your head 2. how did you get that from gundams and possum posting
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May 12, 2017 08:35
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Hamshot posted:Here's a crazy idea: talk about them in the relevant threads! Crazy idea I know! I touched on this in the OP, but if you would like a further explanation I can provide one. There are a lot of threads and a lot of games and some games don't have threads. I don't have any interest in Warmahordes and so I don't go into that thread at all. But that doesn't mean I don't want to hear about PP making terrible business decisions. Having a thread that focuses on the industry specifically over the minutia of the game, the hobby, or the competitive scene is the obvious solution. The different threads also have different cultures. Some threads really do just focus on list building and posting pictures of painted models and aren't interested in analyzing rules or being critical of the company as a whole, and that's fine if that's what the people posting that thread want. Besides, what harm is there in having a decent resource so every time a lovely company posts a new Kickstarter or someone wants to know why everyone hates this particular name in the industry, posters can just say, "Oh, there's a decent write-up about it starting on page X of the Death Thread. Here's a link." Plus, here people can compare other games and mechanics to each other without someone saying, "If you love X-Wing so much go talk about it in the X-Wing thread" or "take it to the Death Thread". Frankly, since "take it to the Death Thread" is thrown around with some frequency here, I don't see the harm in having one. But how can you possibly call it a fluffy echo chamber? There is a monumental amount of shitposting and personal attacks that go on in the Death Thread and yet the regulars still try to engage in meaningful discussion. I invite contrasting viewpoints because I want legitimate discussion. It's not like there's a finite amount of internet and there's no room for this thread in Trad Games.
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May 12, 2017 08:50
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Sad. 
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May 12, 2017 08:52
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