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Orv posted:It's not necessarily wrong. You need spaces for the less aggressively minded players to either stay (EVE hi-sec) or work up courage to go into (EVE low-sec), and SweetBro is right, that most of the UO revival games are terrible at providing this. AO especially doesn't really have a game beyond gathering resources to then lose in PvP, yet they still have the systems in place that punish actually trying to take peoples poo poo. EVE is basically the only place where the UO dream still exists in some manageable, working form and even then it goes to great lengths to ensure that 99% of the people who don't want to, poor suicide ganked miners aside, never interact with the loss portion. 3/4 of the eve player base never leave high sec http://imgur.com/a/KOdub pvp servers in wow are ghost towns or have faction imbalances so great it is essentially a pve server The whole problem with making a game for sharks like this is that sharks tend to want encounters where they are in a far superior position to their quarry.
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May 21, 2017 12:28
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:this assumption is based on what exactly? why is everything griefers vs non griefers? there are plenty of situations where the sharks pve and the fish pvp, trying to make these roles rigid is a really bad assumption on player behavior. Well gee let's think about this. If most UO players actually spent most of their time playing an entirely different non-PVP game but also served, very occasionally, as victims to a small base of PVPers, we could expect them to jump ship to a PVP-free server at the very first opportunity. Did anything like that happen, I just don't know anything about UO, so if anyone can think of a time when a PVP-free version of UO became available and most of the playerbase stampeded over to it, please let me know.
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May 21, 2017 13:11
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I'm enjoying all these effort posts. Keep them coming.
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May 21, 2017 13:50
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Node posted:Alexander deLarge parachute account spotted. Lol
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May 21, 2017 16:35
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30.5 Days posted:Well gee let's think about this. If most UO players actually spent most of their time playing an entirely different non-PVP game but also served, very occasionally, as victims to a small base of PVPers, we could expect them to jump ship to a PVP-free server at the very first opportunity. Yeah, when they added Trammel/Felucca pretty much everyone fled to Trammel (the non PVP zone). Felucca pretty much turned into a zergfest around the gates.
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May 21, 2017 22:42
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30.5 Days posted:Well gee let's think about this. If most UO players actually spent most of their time playing an entirely different non-PVP game but also served, very occasionally, as victims to a small base of PVPers, we could expect them to jump ship to a PVP-free server at the very first opportunity. no, mr dicks is correct. now if only the players would just play the games i like the way i want them to
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May 21, 2017 23:00
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beep_boop posted:Yeah, when they added Trammel/Felucca pretty much everyone fled to Trammel (the non PVP zone). Felucca pretty much turned into a zergfest around the gates. I know sarcasm translate poorly over the internet, but I have a hard time anyone wasn't seeing a Stewie Griffin style 90 degree head tilt in their mind as they were reading that.
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May 22, 2017 01:12
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As long as the reward for pvpers is ruining another player's day, you can't really quantify a balanced reward structure. That said, I have thought about a system where pve players in a pvp zone have a limited amount of times they can die before they are pvp immune for a time. Also considered treating pve players more like dungeon mini-bosses while in a pvp zone, so that you literally need a gank group to take out an otherwise defenseless miner. Interesting mechanics to think about but probably never work out in practice.
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May 22, 2017 02:03
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Freakazoid_ posted:As long as the reward for pvpers is ruining another player's day, you can't really quantify a balanced reward structure. The reason it worked in UO was that a group of people killing a murderer ruined more than his day. Killing a notorious murderer would ruin his week or longer, depending on how much he wanted to grind those stats back. Also the other thing I mentioned where murderers can't enter any towns/have protection for themselves outside of forming a murder gang or standing in their house. E: Also, murderers didn't really target miners or other profession people. They targetted PvE players which were hardly defenseless. Tamers had dragon pets which far outclassed a player in terms of strength, for one example. The reason I like the system is that PvP in most other MMO's have no risk/reward. You kill and kill and kill and the person just resurrects and nobody cares. Makes it even funnier when people do get mad though. I don't understand why people get mad about the current stuff when legit nothing is lost. Sum Mors fucked around with this message at 02:17 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 02:14
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SweetBro posted:I know sarcasm translate poorly over the internet, but I have a hard time anyone wasn't seeing a Stewie Griffin style 90 degree head tilt in their mind as they were reading that. Cool
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May 22, 2017 16:15
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Byolante posted:3/4 of the eve player base never leave high sec Eve is a bad case study for this due to it being a game where alts are necessary to get the most out of the game. I had two null combat pilots and three highsec market dudes who ultimately existed to funnel resources to my null pilot. My stats bolstered the never leave highsec argument despite spending 99% of my active playtime in null.
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May 22, 2017 19:07
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Yeah, CCP themselves have said they can't tell the difference between a purpose made pve alt in hisec who's main plays in nullsec and someone who legit lives in hisec.
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May 22, 2017 23:23
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Sum Mors posted:Killing a notorious murderer would ruin his week or longer, depending on how much he wanted to grind those stats back. My impression at the time was that they did not have a problem, as macroing was hard to detect and relied heavily on others snitching on them. I recall many sightings where a house would have a trapped mob in the corner for such purposes. You could recover those lost stats in about 3 days. I played on Pacific back in the day, my miner was occasionally the target of pvp in the mountain area next to Minoc, for no reason other than they could.
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May 23, 2017 02:38
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falling all over all these -falls it never ends 
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May 23, 2017 02:43
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Freakazoid_ posted:As long as the reward for pvpers is ruining another player's day, you can't really quantify a balanced reward structure. Freakazoid_ posted:You could recover those lost stats in about 3 days. Hmmm. Not saying a gatherer would never be targetted, but they were not gone after because there was little gain to it. You can't exactly take a ton of ore that weighs a million pounds and run with it. The miner just revives nearby and buys a few supplies and is back to his task. If they are targetted, they pissed somebody off or it was probably to do with guild warfare or something.
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May 23, 2017 12:21
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Sum Mors posted:Hmmm. spawn camping, totally not a thing
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May 23, 2017 14:19
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Sum Mors posted:Hmmm. I most certainly never killed miners repeatedly and threw their large sums of ore and ingots into a fire for no reason other than I could.
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May 23, 2017 22:22
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It's always funny when people claim how bad UO was, that if you say something good about it it's just lame nostalgia... Then they jump to correct you on things because it doesn't match their rose colored memories. Let alone even challenging me that it had little/no effect on the persons efforts towards "ruining their day".
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May 24, 2017 14:14
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Never underestimate how little a griefer values his free time. I once met a guy on a Minecraft server and after chillin for a bit I gave him permission to add to or take away from my plot of land, so what did he do? He dismantled my entire tower brick by brick. Why did he do this? I do not know, it probably took him longer to take it down than it did for me to build it.
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May 25, 2017 07:00
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poo poo I mean: http://www.pcgamer.com/how-an-eve-online-con-artist-tricked-a-ruthless-pirate-into-giving-him-his-priceless-ship/ This guy spent a year and a half making real friends and being a valuable member of a guild just so he could steal something worth far less than what he could have easily made over the same period just because of its sentimental value to his victim, a very good friend.
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May 25, 2017 08:04
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I'm not really surprised that happened, but still, that's a special kind of sociopath. I have more respect for that guy who pulled a pyramid scheme pretending to be a bank or something. It was really obvious, yet so many people let their greed override good judgement. I couldn't help but laugh at the whole thing.
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May 26, 2017 04:33
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Sum Mors posted:Hmmm. So you never actually played UO. Got it.
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May 28, 2017 17:03
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Actually I did! Which part of what I said seems to give you your conclusion?
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May 28, 2017 20:27
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Sum Mors posted:Actually I did! Which part of what I said seems to give you your conclusion? All of it. Miners were targeted, just like everyone else, just because they were simply there.
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May 28, 2017 22:20
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I don't recall it saying it never happened. Much less so than other players though. Waiting for a link on how a drive by ruined the miners day though, or how it was hard for the miner to simply res and carry on.
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May 29, 2017 02:31
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Sum Mors posted:I don't recall it saying it never happened. Much less so than other players though. http://www.spleens.net/spleenshots/shots.htm
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May 29, 2017 02:47
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Sum Mors posted:I don't recall it saying it never happened. Much less so than other players though. Uhhhh, reds/greys/blues I pissed off were far more leery of me than a nerd with a pack mule full of ingots that were dead easy to kill or gently caress with. During the dread days it wasn't unusual to see miners fighting over the few coveted in town mining spots.
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Jun 2, 2017 16:48
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SweetBro posted:The inherit problems with games where griefing is a possibility is that making GBS threads on pubbies is only fun when they don't want to be shat on. So you need to have a sizeable population of players who don't want to participate in the griefing mechanics of the game, but are still playing. As such you basically need to create a compelling enough game where the largest population of the game is interested in the content not related to dicking people over. Because of that you need to either have really high-quality content and/or really high quality systems that allow for the emergent appearance of such content. The problem is that most of these games all focus on "Hey, remember how in UO you could be dick? Well you can be a dick here too!" The problem is that messaging only appeals to people who like to be dicks, which inherently just creates a massive sausage fests. I think there are two types of griefing though. In a game like UO griefing was more about vets making GBS threads on newbies. UO didn't exactly have a lot of engaging PVE content and once you had been everywhere and your character was buff enough, the game naturally led you to sandbox/social/RP elements that would usually include PVP or thieving or whatnot. So those newbies getting griefed just hadn't become PVPers yet. This kind of griefing is still alive and well in survival games and some mmos. Though sandbox mmos just aren't that popular anymore. The other type of griefing is in games like EQ, Wow and the like, where the majority of the player base just wants to PVE with friends and doesn't ever want to PVP or engage in sandbox type gaming. Then someone comes along and fucks that up for them. Building a content rich game like WoW is expensive as gently caress and if you allow your player base to get hosed with against their will, it's a quick way to drive them away and lose a lot of money.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:40
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Griefers are the shittiest part of an mmo community, and probably a very small segment of it why would you build a game around their wants and desires? They literally just want to gently caress with other player, full stop. These kinds of people dont care if they are being lovely here or in another world, they will be lovely because they want to be, you need to attract people who dont suck to play your game. Its like advertising that your games voice chat system will really elevate your post gank trashtalk as people wont be able to mute you when you start shouting racial slurs!
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Aug 9, 2017 23:23
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Turtle Sandbox posted:Griefers are the shittiest part of an mmo community, and probably a very small segment of it why would you build a game around their wants and desires? They literally just want to gently caress with other player, full stop. These kinds of people dont care if they are being lovely here or in another world, they will be lovely because they want to be, you need to attract people who dont suck to play your game. 
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Aug 9, 2017 23:24
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Turtle Sandbox posted:Griefers are the shittiest part of an mmo community, and probably a very small segment of it why would you build a game around their wants and desires? They literally just want to gently caress with other player, full stop. These kinds of people dont care if they are being lovely here or in another world, they will be lovely because they want to be, you need to attract people who dont suck to play your game. It's been almost 20 years since I looted your house in UO. Let it go.
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Aug 10, 2017 08:37
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jabro posted:It's been almost 20 years since I looted your house in UO. Let it go. I laughed.
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Aug 11, 2017 01:56
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He's right though. You can't build and advertise a game as being awesome for pvp ganking and griefing and all of that. Barfing wine on people in age of wushu was great because people just weren't expecting it and it wasn't something that happened normally. No one sat down to play and was like "ah yes my controls will be messed up for the next hour of game time" at least not at first. Once it became a standard part of everything and expected it just wasn't worth doing. If everyone goes into a game expecting to be griefed then no one really is. All in all it's really more than just killing someone in game or ruining something they were working on. Really griefing is about getting one over on the systems behind the scenes as much as someone on the other side of the game. Too many of these knock off UO games just lay it all out and take that away which just makes it no fun. Part of it is having people who don't want to be griefed but a lot of it also comes down to not laying it all out on the table.
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Aug 12, 2017 03:25
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randombattle posted:Part of it is having people who don't want to be griefed but a lot of it also comes down to not laying it all out on the table. This is the reason these games always fail. Now there is something else, where are you going to find people willing to play who also don't want to be griefed.
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Aug 12, 2017 06:45
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randombattle posted:If everyone goes into a game expecting to be griefed then no one really is. All in all it's really more than just killing someone in game or ruining something they were working on. Really griefing is about getting one over on the systems behind the scenes as much as someone on the other side of the game. Too many of these knock off UO games just lay it all out and take that away which just makes it no fun. Part of it is having people who don't want to be griefed but a lot of it also comes down to not laying it all out on the table. You say that, but for years CCP literally advertised EVE as a game where you gently caress people over/scam/steal whatever, it was all fair game. Yet I've still seen people completely wig the gently caress out over a minor theft. I got one guy so mad he claimed to have beaten his laptop to death on the official forums. Yet they were pre-warned, many times.
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Aug 21, 2017 21:55
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Rhymenoserous posted:You say that, but for years CCP literally advertised EVE as a game where you gently caress people over/scam/steal whatever, it was all fair game. Yet I've still seen people completely wig the gently caress out over a minor theft. I got one guy so mad he claimed to have beaten his laptop to death on the official forums. Nah CCP advertised the emergent gameplay bullshit aspect of EVE which also happens to include griefing aspects. Plus, because unlike games like MO where Pickpocketing is an actual game mechanic that exist for the sole purpose of griefing, EVE's griefing mechanics exist on mostly a meta-level. Also gently caress whomever decided to bump this thread. This thread deserved archives.
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Aug 22, 2017 09:13
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