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dr.acula
May 9, 2009



Fire walk with me is on Netflix finally and I'm thinking about watching it with my GIRLFRIEND who knows nothing about twin peaks and has no context to judge her reaction.

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NObodyNOWHERE
Apr 24, 2007

Now we are all sons of bitches.


Hell Gem

Do NOT start someone at FWWM! That's a terrible idea. That movie, as much as I love it, will not be a good watch for someone who isn't familiar with what came before.

Rageaholic
May 31, 2005

I can't remember
what she came here for

I can't remember
much of anything
anymore


Shredded Hen

Yeah, that's a terrible starting point. It's good to know it's on Netflix now though!

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010




I'm getting my coworker started on Twin Peaks after she put me on to Dark, and she's very queasy about violence. I figure she'll be fine for the original series but FWWM and The Return are going to be a struggle.

Dark, incidentally, if you haven't seen it, is a show that owes a lot to Twin Peaks. Small town in the forest, dark secrets of townsfolk coming to light, community shocked by crimes that quickly turn out to be just the tip of a supernatural iceberg. Not a bad show, although it leans far too heavily on the drama and conflict and takes itself much too seriously. I'm making my way through it and I keep thinking about how Twin Peaks had elements like Cooper and Harry becoming friends, the warm and welcoming diner, and all the comedy bits whether they aged well or not, coexisting with the gruesome psycho drama, crime and monstrous entities, and how much more of a whole show it is for it.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Yea Dark is good and the final season releases today, definitely way more serious tho but still good.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



The Pilot is all you need for both a great small-town mystery film and an entrée into the dense world of Twin Peaks. I mean, it definitely isn't... enough on its own, but that's quite the point.

dr.acula
May 9, 2009



NObodyNOWHERE posted:

Do NOT start someone at FWWM! That's a terrible idea. That movie, as much as I love it, will not be a good watch for someone who isn't familiar with what came before.

I put on the Disaster Artist without explaining anything and she was not amused lmao

Section 9
Mar 24, 2003



Hair Elf

My group watch with friends who have never seen Twin Peaks before just hit season 3 episode 8 and I'm so very excited. They loved Seasons 1 & 2 (minus lame James moments) and were even more sucked in by even the first 2 episodes of Season 3. I think this is going to blow their minds.

Also, something that occurred to me: is the person behind the diner in Mulholland Drive possibly one of or realted to the woodsmen? Similar look, and since Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be an offshoot of Twin Peaks, could be something Lynch was working on as a concept earlier on?

RYYSZLA
May 11, 2013


Section 9 posted:

My group watch with friends who have never seen Twin Peaks before just hit season 3 episode 8 and I'm so very excited. They loved Seasons 1 & 2 (minus lame James moments) and were even more sucked in by even the first 2 episodes of Season 3. I think this is going to blow their minds.

Also, something that occurred to me: is the person behind the diner in Mulholland Drive possibly one of or realted to the woodsmen? Similar look, and since Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be an offshoot of Twin Peaks, could be something Lynch was working on as a concept earlier on?

There's a 4 hour long video on youtube, by a guy called Twin Perfect (here) that goes into all the recurring themes and motifs of twin peaks through a literal / critical lens, and it picks up on so much thematic overlap between the two that I'd say you're spot on, Mulholland Drive was originally meant to be Audrey's spinoff, elements of what that would have been like had it not been retooled into something else I presume are Audrey's storyline in S3, which I won't go into for the people reading who haven't seen yet (if they exist still?)

also, the 18th episode of The Return is almost a 1:1 coda for the last act of Mulholland drive. In identical ways, Lynch shows us the reality the dream is constructed from, one of my favourite bits of cinema, television, film, whatever of all time

Lord Krangdar
Oct 23, 2007

These are the secrets of death we teach.


Section 9 posted:

Also, something that occurred to me: is the person behind the diner in Mulholland Drive possibly one of or realted to the woodsmen? Similar look, and since Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be an offshoot of Twin Peaks, could be something Lynch was working on as a concept earlier on?

The white-faced man from Lost Highway, as well.

java
May 7, 2005



RYYSZLA posted:

There's a 4 hour long video on youtube, by a guy called Twin Perfect (here) that goes into all the recurring themes and motifs of twin peaks through a literal / critical lens, and it picks up on so much thematic overlap...

I watched this entire thing today and I'm not going to lie, it pretty much blew my mind. I always enjoyed the show but am basically completely lacking in the ability to deeply analyze a piece of media in this way.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Grimey Drawer

Most of it’s not right if that helps

java
May 7, 2005



Escobarbarian posted:

Most of it’s not right if that helps

Some of it seemed like bullshit, but I thought certain aspects, for example Judy being a stand in for closure seemed like they could be true. Could you expand on what one should read for a more correct interpretation?

Gravastars
Sep 8, 2011



I really don't like that analysis because it places Lynch's symbolism in this weird one-to-one and highly author-dependent framework. Some of it resonates, but that's when there's more active interpretation of themes and general ideas in the series going on (Judy meaning "closure" being one of these).

The dude bases his rationale on that one scene in Fire Walk With Me where Chet Desmond interprets the symbolism acted out by that red-haired woman. However, the scene in question is ridiculous. You could interpret her dance routine in any number of directions and it would still make "sense".

Also, Lynch's word should never be taken as gospel.

thumper57
Feb 26, 2004



I find almost all of it pretty drat hard to dispute
Especially the follow-up which mostly centers on Seniorita Dido.

Gravastars
Sep 8, 2011



thumper57 posted:

I find almost all of it pretty drat hard to dispute
Especially the follow-up which mostly centers on Seniorita Dido.

See, that's where I thought his stretches were almost unbearable.

Some of it, again, is interesting. You can make a reasonable case that the scene is commenting on film/television production because it's based in a theatre etc., but things like "Dido" meaning "ditto"... it doesn't convince me.

I could make the case that the scene is about the unreality of film production. There's a big pipe-shaped funnel that Laura's orb has to travel through, so this is obviously a reference to Magritte's Treachery of Images. Except, that idea only half works because it relies on the assumption that Lynch was actually consciously channelling "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" to make this a coded message. It's much easier to say that the whole thing simply involves a big projector showing us scenes we've already witnessed - a motif that repeats in various ways throughout the series.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Lynch most likely operates almost purely on dream logic, with his imagery hinting at a feeling he’s trying to evoke. Any detailed granular analysis is probably going to be complete nonsense.

Trying to “solve” Twin Peaks is like trying to find out why the clocks are melting in Dali’s Persistence of Memory.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



They're melting because they're on Venus, whose surface temperature reaches in excess of 900 degrees Fahrenheit.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Well, gently caress!

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again



My second viewing of FWWM is the correct way to break in my Criterion Channel trial, right?

HD DAD posted:

Lynch most likely operates almost purely on dream logic, with his imagery hinting at a feeling he’s trying to evoke. Any detailed granular analysis is probably going to be complete nonsense.

Trying to “solve” Twin Peaks is like trying to find out why the clocks are melting in Dali’s Persistence of Memory.

RYYSZLA
May 11, 2013


HD DAD posted:

Lynch most likely operates almost purely on dream logic, with his imagery hinting at a feeling he’s trying to evoke. Any detailed granular analysis is probably going to be complete nonsense.

Trying to “solve” Twin Peaks is like trying to find out why the clocks are melting in Dali’s Persistence of Memory.

You say that but if you watch the video I provided, you'll find the opposite is the case.

Just like Mulholland Drive, Twin Peaks is litered with direct messages from David Lynch that you have to choose to miss in order to deny the existance of. Watch the video. Edit: People often point out that it seems like I think Lynch singlehandedly chose everything that appears on screen, Im aware this isn't the case, but explaining the exact context for every message is pointless compared to saying " a message from lynch"

Escobarbarian posted:

Most of it’s not right if that helps

That doesn't help because actually.... it is right, mainly. There are lots of things that only make sense through the "layers of dream logic" interpretation twin perfect does.

Gravastars posted:

I really don't like that analysis because it places Lynch's symbolism in this weird one-to-one and highly author-dependent framework. Some of it resonates, but that's when there's more active interpretation of themes and general ideas in the series going on (Judy meaning "closure" being one of these).

The dude bases his rationale on that one scene in Fire Walk With Me where Chet Desmond interprets the symbolism acted out by that red-haired woman. However, the scene in question is ridiculous. You could interpret her dance routine in any number of directions and it would still make "sense".

Also, Lynch's word should never be taken as gospel.

No offence but clearly you missed the entire point of the video... which isn't hard to do seeing as it's 4hrs long so I'll cut you some slack, but the literal opposite of that is the case. Twin Perfect makes the literal Death Of The Author argument, in that it doesn't matter what David Lynch may have been trying to say, this is what he said, this is what the things he filmed meant when edited together and broadcast in that order, this is what concept that alludes to etc, and it's all based on primary canonical evidence from the show itself first (which disproves by definition any arguments about it being wrong that don't specifically link to clips of the show that objectively disprove the assertion), and statements from Lynch & frost second. There are plenty of things that are reaches, but when you place them in the context of the whole message, they make enough sense that it could be a valid description, if you want it to be.

As for what he bases his rationale on... sort of yes, Im watching the video again now to double check but I was under the impression that was just an example of the symbolism interpretation, rather than being the basis of the entire rationale for the entire argument. I may be wrong though.

"Also, Lynch's word should never be taken as gospel." drat right, that's why I only do so when it doesn't contradict the primary source of canon which is the show itself haha.

PS dream logic =/= nonseniscal when analysed in a detailed fashion. Case in point, Mulholland drive is "solved" completely, and its last hour is a 1:1 coda for episodes 17 and 18 of The Return. Significant amounts of the dream logic symbology that permeated all 25 years of Season 1, Season 2 and Fire Walk With Me appear exactly as they do in Mulholland Drive as keys to show us they are the inspirations the dream world of twin peaks took from reality.

RYYSZLA fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jul 5, 2020

The Walrus
Jul 9, 2002




Fun Shoe

the literal death of the author argument would be that the meaning is totally subjective, not that there is a literal meaning whether the author likes it or not

Maarak
May 23, 2007


I feel confident that rewatching any random four episodes of Twin Peaks is more productive than a four hour youtube analysis.

TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

Twin Perfect has bad analysis, so I'm not surprised that they couldn't do a video smaller than four hours.

Minghawk
Oct 9, 2012


The 'Lill' bit in FWWM was famously just in there to take the piss out of anyone looking for hidden meanings in absolutely every scene in one of Lynch's films. The explanation in the car afterwards is ridiculous, and is supposed to be. Lynch likes a giggle.

Is TwinPerfect just one guy know? I remember them from when they misinterpreted Silent Hill about a decade ago. He's doing what people who get these things wrong always do: he assumes that everything on screen is a deliberately crafted piece of a puzzle. Nothing is ever just stuck in for a bit of a laugh, or because it's a sudden idea, or because they've got half an hour before a truck arrives so they'll maybe just try something out. Every moment is somehow polished and planned. That's the problem with these 'explanations' - they don't understand how writers work, and in this case they really don't understand how the writers of Twin Peaks worked.

Chris Knight
Jun 5, 2002

And I'm only saying this because I care.

There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.



Fun Shoe

Kilometers Davis posted:

My second viewing of FWWM is the correct way to break in my Criterion Channel trial, right?

That and The Art Life.

thrilla in vanilla
Oct 9, 2012

NEVER LET A
RANDOM MOTHERFUCKER
SHOOT THE B ROLL



Twin peaks shouldn’t be explained. It’s about the feeling maaan

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

And that feeling is pure, delicious garmonbozia existential dread.

romanowski
Nov 10, 2012



is Twin Perfect the one about how the entirety of Twin Peaks is just a meta commentary on television because that interpretation fuckin sucks. sorry

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Grimey Drawer

That’s the one.

RYYSZLA
May 11, 2013


romanowski posted:

is Twin Perfect the one about how the entirety of Twin Peaks is just a meta commentary on television because that interpretation fuckin sucks. sorry


Escobarbarian posted:

That’s the one.

You're both wrong, but since you aren't willing to watch it, you'll never know.
Can't reason with the unreasonable.

franks
Jan 1, 2007

Alcoholism is the only
disease you can get
yelled at for having.


I’m not willing to watch it cause I could watch most of season 1 in the same amount of time

romanowski
Nov 10, 2012



I watched 45 minutes of it and found that its analysis made Twin Peaks actually seem less compelling so I declined to watch the remaining three hours and instead I simply watched more Twin Peaks probably

BetterLekNextTime
Jul 22, 2008

It's all a matter of perspective...


Grimey Drawer

I thought the analyses of individual scenes and elements were pretty interesting even if you don’t buy the premise that the alpha and omega of Lynch’s motivation was meta commentary about media and society. Some of it clearly is (not to the exclusion of other things Lynch wanted to say), so it’s cool to think about how he does that.

thumper57
Feb 26, 2004



Minghawk posted:

The 'Lill' bit in FWWM was famously just in there to take the piss out of anyone looking for hidden meanings in absolutely every scene in one of Lynch's films. The explanation in the car afterwards is ridiculous, and is supposed to be. Lynch likes a giggle.

Famously? Citation needed?

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018


Minghawk posted:

The 'Lill' bit in FWWM was famously just in there to take the piss out of anyone looking for hidden meanings in absolutely every scene in one of Lynch's films. The explanation in the car afterwards is ridiculous, and is supposed to be. Lynch likes a giggle.

Is TwinPerfect just one guy know? I remember them from when they misinterpreted Silent Hill about a decade ago. He's doing what people who get these things wrong always do: he assumes that everything on screen is a deliberately crafted piece of a puzzle. Nothing is ever just stuck in for a bit of a laugh, or because it's a sudden idea, or because they've got half an hour before a truck arrives so they'll maybe just try something out. Every moment is somehow polished and planned. That's the problem with these 'explanations' - they don't understand how writers work, and in this case they really don't understand how the writers of Twin Peaks worked.

my favorite is probably these two idiots who made a video mocking anyone who didn't think prometheus was brilliant genius work, complete with the "if you didn't understand the brilliance you're a stupid dum dum". I think they were saying the movie is actually brilliant amazingness because there was extra blu-ray footage coming out and lore that made it make sense. because a hallmark of a top tier film is having to do extra reading/homework to make it good later. saw them again a few years later doing what was some kind of victory lap over Silent Hill remaster being poo poo and reading out all the quotes from Japanese people in these really horrible and offensive "japanese" accents. I can't find their channel anymore but it was a masterpiece of unlikable nerd cringe.

Edit: Im 70% sure that Mike and Jay were mocking those guys and people like them in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ic1butxj4c

TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jul 7, 2020

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Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 18, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge


TheMaestroso posted:

Twin Perfect has bad analysis, so I'm not surprised that they couldn't do a video smaller than four hours.

They also made a huge analysis series on the Silent Hill series that's a punchline among the SH fan community for being just huge reach after huge reach while they insist their interpretation is the "canon" one. So of course they did the same thing for TP.

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