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Mr. Apollo posted:Jenkins on the WW sequel: It would have to be after JL so that leaves space aliens, saving whales, global warming, or ISIL.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:29
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BrianWilly posted:And now we can see that they appreciate Diana, as well. Man please don't tell me what I do and don't appreciate Not that I have any beef with your larger point, I think Cameron's statement was dumb as hell and your critiques of it are pretty on point. But it rules that Karloff put out the call to listen to women about what they appreciate in these kinds of movies, a woman obliged, and you responded with a "yeah, but"
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Aug 31, 2017 00:49
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Tenzarin posted:It would have to be after JL so that leaves space aliens, saving whales, global warming, or ISIL.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:27
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Mr. Apollo posted:Theodicy is premised on God being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, correct? It wouldn't work with the Greek/Roman pantheon since their gods don't have all those qualities would it? Well, yeah - but we can be even more specific. In the Themysciran religion, all the Greek gods are already dead except Ares. And when Hippolyta talks about the Greek gods, it is like talking about Santa Claus; she is well aware that they are merely personifications of abstract concepts. They never actually existed. So Diana is not what the Amazons call a god; she is simply a woman with "magic' bracelets that grant her the power of (what we might call) reification: the ability to turn abstract concepts into concrete things. What this means is that, if Diana thinks something like, "this sword is justice!", her sword really does gain attributes associated with the concept 'justice'. The otherwise-ordinary piece of metal will become unbreakable and ultra-sharp, and so-on. This is how all her equipment works. But this also means is that Ares, the living dude, is born from Diana's thoughts - a byproduct of Diana's power. That's why he has a moustache: the abstract concept of 'War' is reified as a surreal mix of the character Diana saw in her picture-books, and the British guy she met earlier in the film. (In theory, she could summon Santa Claus the same way). We should be clear that this is not 'all in her head'; a real battle takes place, and Steve really does see Ares flying around. But the point is that Ares never really existed until now. What we see is an externalization of Diana's inner struggle: a literal battle against her own desire to end civilization - to destroy the world. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 01:29
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Man, now I want the movie where Diane summons Santa Clause: God of War and they have a massive fight.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:36
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Jenny Angel posted:Man please don't tell me what I do and don't appreciate I'm sorry, I'm trying to work out where I've offended you by saying something you apparently agree with.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:52
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It seems strange to dismiss the film's gods as "personifications of abstract concepts" and that Diana is therefore not a god, but then also accept that Diana's thoughts and struggles can manifest so tangibly that Steve can see Ares flying around.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's why he has a moustache:
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Aug 31, 2017 02:08
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It's a movie that occurs within the DC universe. Why wouldn't Ares be just as real as Steve Trevor, Bruce Wayne, General Zod, or Doomsday? Sure he can represent Diana's struggle as she comes to grasp with what reality actually is versus her idealized version of reality but I don't see why he can be a real, physical entity.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:18
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For what it's worth, in Charles Moulton original comic confrontation between Wonder Woman and Ares, Ares was not a physical entity. He was intangible, and influenced the world by sending his agents to invisibly tempt the leaders of the Axis powers into bellicose action, in much the same way he's shown interacting with Dr. Poison in the film. To actually do battle with Ares, Wonder Woman drinks a potion that puts her in a trance, and her "astral body" sneaks aboard a phantom spaceship taking the ghosts of the war dead to Ares' iron fortress on the planet Mars. After destroying the iron fortress and Ares inside in, Wonder Woman explains that as a god, Ares cannot truly be killed. The best mankind can hope for is imprisoning Ares, through ending war on Earth. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 03:48
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But Ares was still real in the sense that he was an actual entity of some kind.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:59
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Schwarzwald posted:It seems strange to dismiss the film's gods as "personifications of abstract concepts" and that Diana is therefore not a god, but then also accept that Diana's thoughts and struggles can manifest so tangibly that Steve can see Ares flying around. It's not a dismissal; it's just an important distinction. Diana ends the film still believing that she is a Greek god, separate from humanity. She talks about the 'darkness in mankind' as if they are a different species. This means she has not yet realized that the Greek gods never actually existed, and that she was born human - that she is only a god insofar as she was given some crazy technology. It shows her ideological limitations. So, Ares is a fictional character in the diegesis, while Diana is akin to Thor in the marvel movies. And even then, there is a difference: Thor is an 'ancient alien' who has influenced humanity for centuries. Diana is the opposite: a superpowered human influenced by Greek theology. In other words, Marvel's "universe" is one of New Agey paganism, while the DC "universe" remains christian.
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Aug 31, 2017 04:27
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Hmm so are you suggesting that Diana is like Captain America? A human who has been given super human abilities? But by whom and why? And why the whole Greek mythology background? And are you just referring to the Diana in the movie or the comic too?
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Aug 31, 2017 04:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's not a dismissal; it's just an important distinction. How do you know she was born human, and gods don't exist yadda yadda? I tell stories to friends about my dead grandparents.
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Aug 31, 2017 04:34
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Drifter posted:How do you know she was born human, and gods don't exist yadda yadda? I tell stories to friends about my dead grandparents.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:35
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Mr. Apollo posted:Hmm so are you suggesting that Diana is like Captain America? A human who has been given super human abilities? But by whom and why? And why the whole Greek mythology background? And are you just referring to the Diana in the movie or the comic too? I don't read comics, but Schwarzwald has shown that what I've said closely matches the events in the comic (except that Diana's 'vision quest' materializes, violently, in the reality of the film). The origin of the gauntlets (and the glowing water) is not really important to the narrative. What matters is that Diana's powers obviously come from the gauntlets, not from her body - and so her mother's version of events is not altogether true. Diana is not literally made out of magic clay. (In plot terms, it's already implied that the 'magic' artifacts are scavenged alien technology - e.g. the 'mother box'.) Diana's powers are Greek-mythology-themed because that's how she was raised. The Amazons escaped from slavery in Greece, but they still worship Zeus. And because Diana was taught that her powers come from Zeus, that is what she believes. If Diana were raised differently, she would call herself a daughter of Odin or of Ra, or something. Mr. Apollo posted:Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why we can't just take her origin story and the whole movie at face value. It's a comic book movie. Diana takes her origin story at face value, and ends up almost ending civilization. The point of the movie is that that's not a good idea. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 05:46
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Mr. Apollo posted:Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why we can't just take her origin story and the whole movie at face value. It's a comic book movie. Because then there's nowhere for the farts to go.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:48
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Mr. Apollo posted:But Ares was still real in the sense that he was an actual entity of some kind. The early Wonder Woman comics primarily had Wonder Woman fight against human soldiers and agents of the Axis powers, and while they might be equipped with fantastic devices and powers (exotic poisons, electromagnetic submarines, trick doors and hidden rooms, elephant hypnosis, etc etc) the people behind them are mere mortals. Wonder Woman and her pals fight them bodily. The comic where Wonder Woman battles Ares is different. Wonder Woman does not fight him bodily. Her body is safely asleep on Etta Candy's couch. The reasoning for this is more clear when you consider that it was written during WW2 for an audience of children, many of whom had parents and siblings stationed overseas. They knew the fascists were real. But Ares is not real, or is real only in the sense that war is real. Wonder Woman battles Ares in a dream specifically to communicate this to it's readers. The comic ends with Wonder Woman waking up.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:55
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Schwarzwald posted:To actually do battle with Ares, Wonder Woman drinks a potion that puts her in a trance, and her "astral body" sneaks aboard a phantom spaceship taking the ghosts of the war dead to Ares' iron fortress on the planet Mars. Try to play that on the playground or even make that a movie.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:09
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Every in what I remember of the cartoons (and oddly enough, also in Marvel) Ares is a god and also a real, physical entity. The physical aspect of Ares is in London writing a treaty that'll make peace into a ten-year armistice, while literally in spirit he shadows the German leaders and most insane scientists whispering ideas for horrific superweapons and atrocities into their heads. They made it pretty clear that while he admits that he's basically an allegorical character, he's also an actual entity within the movie's movie. This is a world where box-shaped alien supercomputers, crocodile-men, mad billionaires who dress like bats and aliens who look exactly like humans except for that they become godlike under a yellow sun all exist. One of the key conceits of superhero movies, especially historical ones, is that the line between allegory and reality doesn't really exist; superheroes and supervillains are manifestations of ideals and concepts and problems and are also living, breathing people with hopes, needs, and brain problems. Like, this is the New Gods' entire thing, and they are hinting at Darkseid, the Satanic embodiment of tyranny, fascism and utter subjugation of the self pretty heavily. (The Anti-Life Equation is basically an inverted alchemy, instead of seeking eternal life, resurrection and wealth, Darkseid seeks what will put all under his control through transcendental magical science) Diana thinks she was sculpted from clay, but it turns out nah, one of the last things Zeus did was gently caress Hippolyta (he died like he lived) to conceive the last and youngest of the gods, one who can grow up into something the world needs now. (Plus, I think that Diana as the last of the Olympian gods might be deliberately similar to the Last Son of Krypton) I also find it interesting that Diana works at the Louvre. She probably feels at home there, being basically an antique herself, though it also has some amusing irony when she thought she was originally a clay statue. She takes care of ancient and rare things, and may well have spent the last century being magical lady Indiana Jones hunting ancient artifacts and magical weapons to keep them out of the wrong hands. (It belongs in a museum! And so do I!) Which also might be played interestingly as she's then the representative of all that is ancient, compared to the Man of Tomorrow, the billionaire who fights evil with only the best money can buy, the particle accelerator accident and the literal cyborg. (Though no idea about Aquaman)
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Aug 31, 2017 06:42
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Mr. Apollo posted:Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why we can't just take her origin story and the whole movie at face value. It's a comic book movie. We get 2 explanations for her origin in the movie itself already and frankly there's no reason to expect either are altogether entirely correct. It's particularly instructive that the first one is even diegetically a fairy tale. And it does double duty, even--why, the storks brought you! VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 08:06
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It's kinda metaphorically correct in that Diana wasn't just conceived and born, but made, created to be a weapon capable of surpassing
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Aug 31, 2017 10:19
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I mean that's Ares' whole plan, right? He wants to take Wonder Woman on a whirlwind tour of World War I because he knows her intervention will escalate things and make things worse. The one who actually stops the big war crime at the end is Steve.
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Aug 31, 2017 18:50
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Tenzarin posted:Try to play that on the playground or even make that a movie. They did; it's called Wonder Woman. When The Avengers came out, many people noted that the ostensible good guys act like villains and the whole situation is incredibly hosed up. Fans, however, insisted that nobody question it because it's just a comic book movie and we should accept it at face value, etc. The good guys are simply good guys. Then, like two films later, it's 'revealed' that the good guys are literal hyper-nazis. What an unexpected twist! Reading is not a postmodern game. Even Pulp Fiction understood this: "See, now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 Millimeter here? He's the shepherd protecting my righteous rear end in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you're the righteous man, and I'm the shepherd, and it's the world that's evil and selfish. Now I'd like that. But that poo poo ain't the truth. The truth is… you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men. But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd." Wonder Woman is not a film about theodicy, but it is a film about anthropodicy - specifically a rejection of it. Diana no longer believes humanity is inherently good, or even that it deserves to exist - but she does believe in love. And that's a start. But as long as Diana considers herself a Greek goddess above and beyond humanity, she is still avoiding the truth. The same happened in Man Of Steel; for all his Christlike attributes, Superman had not yet been crucified. This truth was repressed. So then the sequel was, of course, about his last temptation and then his death.
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Aug 31, 2017 20:00
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I'm a little disappointed Ares didn't pull a literal Darth Vader reveal on Diana, but I guess it was close enough.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:52
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Inescapable Duck posted:It's kinda metaphorically correct in that Diana wasn't just conceived and born, but made, created to be a weapon capable of surpassing Like Iron Giant, but with acceptable murder instead of "I am not a gun."
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Sep 1, 2017 00:10
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ruddiger posted:Like Iron Giant, but with acceptable murder instead of "I am not a gun." Sadly, not every movie can be The Iron Giant.
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Sep 1, 2017 04:53
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Black Bones posted:I'm a little disappointed Ares didn't pull a literal Darth Vader reveal on Diana, but I guess it was close enough. well, he's her brother, so: 
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Sep 1, 2017 06:54
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The movie was okay, nothing special. I'm glad DC actually made a somewhat decent film for once, I'd say they kind of did with Suicide Squad but then again not really.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:49
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ungulateman posted:well, he's her brother, so: Half-brother, full father, it's all greek to me
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Sep 1, 2017 19:57
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Finally watched this, and boy was that a comic book movie. It sure looked pretty but every scene had things in it I couldn't stop from nitpicking in my head. Good effort but just didn't rise above the material.
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Sep 2, 2017 13:06
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Wouldn't Diana, having been sculpted from clay, be a golem?
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Sep 2, 2017 23:59
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Mr. Apollo posted:Wouldn't Diana, having been sculpted from clay, be a golem? If she had been, definitely.
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Sep 3, 2017 00:47
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Mr. Apollo posted:Wouldn't Diana, having been sculpted from clay, be a golem? Well no, mankind is routinely sculpted out of clay in mythology. In Greek mythology Prometheus sculpted man and Athena breathed life into them. Golems are brought to life with a sacred word, but you can alter that word to unanimate them. They're never fully human and usually can't speak, and so on. There is a fun idea there, Diana sculpted as a protector, raising the spirits of the dead (gods) and so on. Now if she had been forced back to Themyscira at the end... If you want a modern(ish) golem see Gordon Freeman, a mute killing machine that keeps getting thrown in cold storage when his work is done.
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Sep 3, 2017 01:49
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The story about Diana being crafted from clay was originally meant to contrast with the creation of Adam and Eve. Specifically, being forged from clay puts her on equal footing with Adam, who was "formed [...] from the dust of the ground." The actual original Wonder Woman comic makes no mention of this at all. Instead, we get the origin of the Amazons, where Hercules through "the wiles of men" takes Hippolyte and her people into slavery, only for the Amazons to later escape through prayer to Aphrodite. Diana is born to Hippolyte afterwards, having been blessed with the beauty of Aphrodite, the wisdom of Athena, the speed of Mercury... and the strength of Hercules.
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Sep 3, 2017 02:13
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That's true, golems can't speak and are only capable of basic tasks.
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Sep 3, 2017 02:16
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Also this is Zeus we're talking about, the god of (among other things) having sex with everything on two legs (or four) and making a bunch of kids. small edit: also just realized, the golem is a jewish folktale and Gal Gadot is Jewish. Probably obvious to everyone else but no one ever said I was quick. As Nero Danced fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Sep 3, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 02:35
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Schwarzwald posted:The story about Diana being crafted from clay was originally meant to contrast with the creation of Adam and Eve. Specifically, being forged from clay puts her on equal footing with Adam, who was "formed [...] from the dust of the ground." Which comic? WW's had a fair few contradictory origin stories, I thought being sculpted from clay was the original one, I heard being strongly implied to be a child by rape from Hercules was more recent.
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Sep 3, 2017 06:11
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Nah, the idea that she wasn't sculpted from clay is a very, very recent retcon from within the last six years, which is more or less when the movie went into production. Before then, being sculpted from clay was the only origin she ever had and it was never particularly confusing or contradictory
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Sep 3, 2017 06:54
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Inescapable Duck posted:Which comic? WW's had a fair few contradictory origin stories, I thought being sculpted from clay was the original one, I heard being strongly implied to be a child by rape from Hercules was more recent. Hippolyta raped by Hercules is Grant Morrison's retcon of WW's origin in Wonder Woman: Earth One (2016). WW's origin in The New 52 (2011), which the 2017 DCEU film borrows from, is where she's the child of Hippolyta and Zeus. In The New 52, Hippolyta keeps this a secret from Diana, telling her that she was sculpted from clay instead. As BrianWilly said, Diana being legit sculpted from clay is her origin that lasted for a good long while. I've recommended George Pérez's 'Gods and Mortals' to anyone wanting to see/read Diana's OG origin story, and then watching the 2009 animated film after because it's one of the best DC animated films 
teagone fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Sep 3, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 07:10
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