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fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Are the regionals actually hiring 1000-hour R-ATP pilots these days? I'm debating on whether it's worth investing in a degree program (I already have one Bachelor's degree) to save 500 hours of flight instructing.

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fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Nice, ok. I'm still not sure the extra time/expense of the R-ATP will put me in a better position than instructing for 1500, but it's good to know it's not pointless.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Arson Daily posted:

Do the pilot mills like all atps qualify for the r-atp stuff? Had a dad ask me if his daughter should go to my alma mater and I told him to steer his kid to anything but an aviation degree.

Usually not. The FAR states that you have to have a Bachelor's with 60 hours of related coursework to get the 1000-hour ATP, or an Associate's and 30 hours for the 1250. Commercial and instrument ratings have to be done at the school or at an affiliated flight school, and I don't think ATP The Flight School is affiliated with any colleges.

Here's a handy list of the approved R-ATP degree programs:
https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/Institutional_Authority_List.pdf

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Arson Daily posted:

I’ve been told that leaving a box of breathe right strips out helps but it seems that most snorers don’t even know they’re doing it.

Or a community CPAP. If he's a fat gently caress and snores like a legion of chainsaws, he probably has OSA.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Can anyone recommend a good Part 61 PPL ground school? I get the same emails from John and Martha that everyone does, but they seem pretty dated and waaaaaay too cheerful.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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If I'm starting ab initio to go career/ATP, is there value in doing all of my training in a complex aircraft as opposed to starting in a 172/Cherokee and working my way up?

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Rolo posted:

Do at least your private in something cheap and easy. In the long run nobody will care if you pulled the gear up and down your first 40 or so hours, plus you’ll already have plenty on your plate.

True enough, but I'm considering buying an aircraft to do my training in (and hopefully keep as a family/cross-country plane), and I'm on the fence about going complex. I know a complex aircraft is going to cost a fair bit more to maintain, and I'm curious if building those habits consistently from hour 0 is worth the difference.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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hobbesmaster posted:

If money has any value to you do not do this.

Ehh, it's actually not that bad. I've done a lot of spreadsheeting and I would come out slightly ahead over the 300-hour training plan if I own the airplane. On its own it's not enough to justify the risk, but if I can get a leaseback with the local flight school it would be a good deal.

The biggest problem is that I also want a plane for family trips, and that means buying since we have 3 kids and there's nothing around here for rent with more than 4 seats. Moving up to a 206 or a Cherokee 6 significantly increases DOC and makes it no longer a good deal overall, but the DOC still comes to less than a 172 rental.

Assuming I'd be buying a 206 or a Cherokee 6 anyway, the added expense of operating a 210 or Saratoga (or maybe an A36) isn't much, but is developing complex experience from the very beginning worth that difference?

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Rolo posted:

Please don’t think I’m being rude, but as someone who scraped the barrel for my flying career and had many hungry nights, I gotta know:

You're cool, I've read plenty of 'I want to be a pilot' threads on a variety of forums over many years, and there's a shitload of wishful thinking and bad information out there. I appreciate you taking the time to verify my position relative to my rocker.

Rolo posted:

If you have a job where you can already afford 3 kids, an airplane and vacations while still eating people food, why why why switch to aviation professionally and not just recreationally?

Because I want to.

Rolo posted:

How much money were you told you’d make the first 5 years? 10 years? Did anyone tell you to prep for a terrible personal life for a good few years?

A pittance, slightly more than a pittance, and yes, respectively. If you want numbers, ~30k/yr as an instructor (~1.5 years), 40k-50k as a regional FO (~2-3 years), ~70k-110k as a regional captain (~5+ years? who the gently caress knows, the flow is a lie), ~75k-90k as a legacy FO, ~100k-250k+ as a legacy captain.

Until I can hold the line I want the schedule will be poo poo, but I will absofuckinglutely be living in base. Commuting is for losers.

Rolo posted:

How much do you trust the school offering you a leaseback? I’ve worked at schools that do this, don’t expect people to treat your 200k delicate investment as gently as most trained animals would.

Enough to hand them a 50k 1960s 172, maybe enough to hand them a 75k 210, not enough to hand them a 150k Bonanza.

Rolo posted:

The only really good answers I can think of are “I don’t want to be around my kids so much” and “my wife makes 6+ figures and she totally won’t leave me so screw it let’s do this.”

My kids are shits but I don't necessarily want to get away from them. My wife is in school right now, by the time I'm ready to pull this trigger she'll be out of school and between her pay and my instructor pittance we'll be breaking even with where we are now.


Rolo posted:

Honestly though, I love my job, we all do hopefully, but the idea of doing all the early career grunt work in exchange for a substantial decrease in pay (it will be) makes me curious to hear more about why you want to do this for work.

I've wanted to fly since I was, like, 4 years old. In 2001 I was a senior in high school, so I decided to get into tech instead. IT has been good to me, but I never really lost the bug. The place I'm at in my life now, combined with movement in the industry, makes this change more feasible now than it's ever been or probably ever going to be.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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ausgezeichnet posted:

Well, uh... good luck. It sounds like you've done your homework, but realize that everybody in here has sucked hind tit to get where they are. I still have trigger anxiety from mid-career job changers in the past who had everything figured out and either missed something or had a fatal career flaw. Forgive me. I fully realize that things are completely different now versus when I got started in aviation in the early 80's, so filter your response through that lens.

IT is similar. I started as a callcenter monkey, and it's taken me 15 years to get to where I am. I'm not afraid of grinding my way up, and I know it's going to suck.


e:

SeaborneClink posted:

Usually we just say we're going to go farm turnips for a midlife crisis, but if you're dead set on plowing the earth with an airplane, may I suggest a Bonanza?

I'm not a doctor so I should be safe.

I've definitely looked at them, but I'd want an 84 or newer to get away from the crossbar yoke, and those are going for more than I'm willing to spend right now.

fatman1683 fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Apr 6, 2018

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Rolo posted:

Also it really does seem like you’ve spent more than a day looking into this but I want to throw out there that aircraft maintenance is insanely expensive. Annual inspections costing 5 digit numbers when you were pretty sure everything was fine can pop up, especially on a 30 year old 50k airplane.

Yeah this is my main concern about going complex. There's not that much to break on a 172, but a 210 has a lot more poo poo that can go expensively bad with very little warning.

Rolo posted:

Which reminds me. GET A PREBUY WITH SOMEONE YOU TRUST.

On that note, what's the general consensus on Savvy? I probably won't go for the maintenance management, but they do offer a prebuy service.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Rudest Buddhist posted:

Join the Cessna Pilots Association and join us in the 210 forum. I’m co-owner on one and we pay about 30 - 40K a year all-in. For a 172 I would budget 15 - 20K a year all in.

Ownership isn’t impossible just do a ton of research and realize it can ruin you if you don’t have cash on hand.

Savvy is great for pre-buys. I recommend Don at AirplanePreBuy.com. At the very least do a log and FAA audit with them. Have a decent A&P do your pre-buy (We can recommend one for you on CPA).

How bigs the family? You can get into a 150kts Mooney M20C for ~50K / 15K a year. It would get you to CFI-I.

There are five of us, and sadly there is no six-place Mooney, so that's not really an option. I do dream of one day owning the biggest, fastest Mooney of them all, the TBM.

I can share my spreadsheets with you guys, if you want. Your numbers seem pretty close to mine, I'm tracking ~22k/yr in fixed expenses and ~116/hr in DOC and reserves for a 210, slightly less for a 206.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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I'm planning on starting flight training with the goal of making it to mainline, but it'll be a year before I've paid off enough debt (and lost enough weight, I'm a fat bastard) to start my PPL. What can I work on in the meantime that will allow me to build some useful skills/knowledge without actually being able to set foot in an airplane?

I picked up a yoke and pedals and X-Plane and have been doing basic maneuvers with that, but I've heard varying opinions on whether the skills will transfer to the Real Thing. I also have a stack of FAA manuals and a 2018 FAR/AIM that I've been going over, but it's hard to know what to focus on.

Any suggestions on setting up some kind of skill/knowledge-building program that can keep me busy for the next year until I can actually fly?

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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PT6A posted:

I don't know what the options are for online ground-school in the US, but I'd suggest starting with that. Having a good theoretical knowledge base to work from will help out with the flying, and an actual ground school will probably help you out a lot more than reading FAA manuals and the FARs.

Yeah I thought about this, but I'm worried about how much of it I'll actually be able to capture without flight time to make it relevant, and how much of it I might forget between now and when I start flying.

azflyboy posted:

I'd recommended downloading the Airplane Flying Handbook and Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge.

They're both available for free (since they're FAA publications), and cover a huge variety of material that you'll eventually need to know in a generally approachable manner.

Got both of those in hardcopy, along with the Instrument Flying and Instrument Procedures handbooks. For casual study I do better with a physical book than with PDFs.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

PT6A posted:

That is a concern, but it's probably better than nothing. It's not so much about how to fly a plane, but rather a bunch of other stuff that will help you be a good pilot. You don't need to be actively flying in order to start learning about weather, how engines works, aerodynamics, and stuff like that. Things like navigation usually make more sense once you have some experience in the plane, so pick and choose which bits you do first. Air law and regulations is tricky -- it's possible to learn without flying, but I personally have an easier time of remembering things like that if I can relate them to things I've done in the plane, so I'd hold off on that too, or at least don't get stressed out over it if you aren't ready to write the exam ASAP.

Flight sim is fun but ultimately there's a limit to how much can be done in the sim because even a very good sim doesn't feel like a real plane. If you want to do it for fun, then by all means go ahead and have fun with it, but if you're looking for it to actually help with your training, don't set your hopes too high. The number one problem I see with students with a lot of sim experience is they focus on the cockpit too much, so if you want to set yourself up for PPL training, focus on looking "outside" -- use the features of the sim to fail some or all of your instruments so you get used to flying just based on looking at the horizon and managing power settings. Focus on correct procedures rather than precision, since the feel will end up being completely different in a real plane anyway, but knowing what order to do things in, etc., will transfer perfectly out of the sim.

Thanks for this. Thankfully I have a pretty solid theoretical grounding in the aerodynamic and mechanical stuff and a little flight time from ages ago, so I'm not starting from scratch for the fundamentals. I definitely need the most help with weather and law concepts, as it's never something that's been particularly interesting to me so I haven't studied it on my own.

Navigation is another one that I'm concerned about, would it be a good idea to get an E6B and a sectional and just work navigation problems? Or is there a better way to approach it?

Good advice on the sim, too. I've heard positive things about VR simming, since your body sort of emulates what it thinks the physical sensations should be for what you're seeing, but that's out of my budget right now. I planned on focusing on just learning the mechanics of the basic flight maneuvers, ground reference maneuvers and whatnot, but procedures is definitely something good to practice, especially once I get bored with the PPL test standards and start working on instrument flying.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Saukkis posted:

How about listening to ATC recordings and get used to interpreting them?

Once I have a bit of free cash flow I plan on signing up for PilotEdge to practice ATC procedures. I've heard good things about them in terms of developing those radio skills.


babyeatingpsychopath posted:

I know it's a long shot, but does anyone have the serial timing diagrams for King DME serial? It's a protocol from like the 70s or something. Synchronous, with a clock and data, and perhaps an out-of-band request channel?

I know it's probably on a physical book somewhere, but I can't figure out which one, and I'm not sure which specific maintenance manual would have it in there.

Not sure if this is what you need but this book has some pinouts and circuit diagrams.

https://www.wulfsberg.com/cgi-bin/cp.cgi?which=RetrieveFile&doc_number=006-00959-0009&rev=9

edit: Here's another book for a different DME model that has what look like signal timings and codes:

http://www.flymafc.com/docs/manuals/king-KN62_KN62A_KN64.pdf

fatman1683 fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 6, 2019

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
.

Potato Salad posted:

Actually, see, he's an expert on avionics

QFT, except that he thinks avionics is the study of birds.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Anyone have any feedback on the Gleim online ground school products? I'm thinking about going for my ground instructor certificates and getting a part-time job teaching ground school until I can afford to start flying.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Thanks for the feedback, I have this idea that having my Gold Seal will make me a little more attractive to the legacies once I get to that point, and that requires your ground instructor certs.

I also want the practice teaching, the subject matter experience and hopefully a discount on my flight time from the school I'm looking at. Ideally this ~$800 investment will save me about ten times that in rentals when I start doing my own flying.

fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Sagebrush posted:

Is that a common thing to do? I flipped through the FAR because your post made me curious and I guess you don't have to have any pilot certificates or flight time to be a ground instructor...but it seems like an odd idea, setting out to teach a topic before you've had a chance to do it for real yourself. No judgment, it just strikes me as odd.

I guess a lot of the stuff -- aerodynamic theory, weather, engines, regulations, etc -- doesn't require that you know how to fly a plane in real life. But I feel like I'd feel weird teaching people about how to perform crosswind landings or whatever knowing that I'd never done it myself.

(If I am just misreading "until I can afford to start flying" please ignore this post)

I have about 8 hours in 172s from the last time I tried to get my tickets, and I've been an aviation nerd for literally my entire life, so it's nothing I haven't at least been exposed to.

I graduated high school in 2002, did my first bit of flying shortly thereafter, but the industry was in the toilet at the time and it didn't seem like a smart career path, so I went into IT instead. Now I'm at a sort of breakpoint in my career, and I decided I want to take another crack at flying. I don't want to take on a bunch of debt, so I'll need to save up for a bit, and I'd like to spend that time working 'in the industry' in some fashion. Hence, part-time ground instructor.

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fatman1683
Jan 8, 2004
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Anybody want to go halves on a Blackhawk?

https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitdsc/?sl=91QSCI21178601

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