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Minrad
Sep 26, 2007

I will never forget your smiles. I feel like I saved the world today. Just feeling like that is enough for me.



Man, EVERYTHING is running lock now. It's kinda crazy. I went back from mork/olgierd to queensguard just so I didn't have to deal with unlocking Morkvarg 3 times a round.

The meta right now's been one hell of a rollecoaster.

Also it feels like every deck is running Operator right now.

Minrad fucked around with this message at May 30, 2017 around 22:29

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


RatHat posted:

Keira is probably the worst "Mage" character right? She's gold too. By Mage I mean the "Choose 1 of 3 spells" thing, most of those cards just happen to be Mages.
She's not an extra clear skies so you don't put her in absolutely everything like you do the silvers. Those are a special case.

It's possible that old pavetta broke my brain and I drastically overvalue situational epidemics but in a deck where you have reliable Thunderbolt targets she seems well worth running to me and I prefer her to philippa (I'm in the minority here). This isn't all that many decks. I also run Pavetta, as further proof that you shouldn't listen to me about this.

Operator is just dumb at 9 str. You pretty much need a compelling reason not to include him, even if the new mull system made him alightly worse.

No Wave fucked around with this message at May 30, 2017 around 22:47

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011



Minrad posted:

Also it feels like every deck is running Operator right now.

Sounds like business as usual then.

The thing that has bummed out so far in OB is having to lug around these stupid weather row dudes in every deck. They're just the loving worst.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at May 30, 2017 around 22:49

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011



But now for real, stuff like weather mechanics just scream too me that this game is just not fit for a ladder system. You need to tech against weather, regardless if weather is good or not, so you need to put these dumb tech cards that in no way shape or form help you win the game against ever other deck.

Noxious actually mentioned this stuff during his CB and tournament musings, that laddering feels bad, but preparing for the tournament and the actual tournament made him turn around on the game. Gwent rewards deck building and experimentation really well, but instead I have to put Naussica Brigade or whatever. I don't mind the cards themselves I do mind having them fill a slot for just a narrow purporse and have very little interaction with the rest of the deck. They seem to have a good idea with the Silver Mages and the faction Silver locks have some variety to them, so I guess they are aware these kind of cards suck.


I think Leagues like Magic would be just better overall. Bo3 matches, sideboard, give end of season rewards based on your undefeated runs.

Minrad
Sep 26, 2007

I will never forget your smiles. I feel like I saved the world today. Just feeling like that is enough for me.



It's kind of the same problem as Hearthstone then. Except here there's no real reward to playing a "fast" deck, since all decks play at about the same speed.

RatHat
Dec 31, 2007


Anyone else think it's a little weird that the winner of the previous round gets to go first? Seems like it should be the loser.

Magic Underwear
May 14, 2003




Young Orc

RatHat posted:

Anyone else think it's a little weird that the winner of the previous round gets to go first? Seems like it should be the loser.

Card advantage is so important (and so many cards are reactive) that going first is a big disadvantage.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Here I post;
I can do no other.


precision posted:

I wish the Rarity indicator was bigger or a symbol instead of a tiny square, I'm slightly colorblind and I have to kinda lean into the screen to tell Blue from Purp

i'm not colorblind at all and i often can't tell wtf color the tiny square is either. it's very silly

8-Bit Scholar
Jan 23, 2016

by FactsAreUseless


Frankly, I wish that gold cards were better marked. I've learned now to squint at the outlines if they look shiny but it's kind of a pain to not realize a card is gold and wasting a spell.

UI remains the biggest flaw here

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


The game's already total cancer again because every single deck you face in every game mode is a top-level netdeck or the closest approximation of it. It was fun for about a week but it's already the same four decks (dwarves, nilfgaard, eredin weather, morkvarg skellige) over and over, if you're lucky, maybe control scoiatel or queensguard. This is going to continue to be a sticking point with this game. Maybe it's worse because the variance in this game is very low by card game standards so sleazing out a win with a suboptimal deck is less common. (Getting 5 out of my 6 muster cards in my opening hand, a 3% chance, happened 5/7 games today so that's not helping matters).

This is what made the game atrocious (imo) by the end of closed beta. I don't know what the solution is, no card game's been able to crack it.

No Wave fucked around with this message at May 30, 2017 around 23:58

8-Bit Scholar
Jan 23, 2016

by FactsAreUseless


I beat lots of scrubs with my basic Skellige line-up. Even when somebody busts a real fancy card out, sometimes I manage to outplay them. Mostly it's a lack of skill on a player's fault; people make bad plays that experienced players won't.

nerox
May 20, 2001


Bought 15 packs today and lucked out and got all the crones. Been playing a monster consume deck all day and having a blast.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Here I post;
I can do no other.


No Wave posted:

This is what made the game atrocious (imo) by the end of closed beta. I don't know what the solution is, no card game's been able to crack it.

if you can't hang with the fact that CCGs have archetypal decks, maybe this isn't the game genre for you

hampig
Feb 11, 2004
...curioser and curioser...

Right at this moment the problems No Wave are talking about are much less severe in Hearthstone, which itself didn't run into massive problems like this until around the release of its second expansion. That's as good a baseline as any for online CCGs, let's not pretend the only answer is "get out".

No Wave posted:

The game's already total cancer again because every single deck you face in every game mode is a top-level netdeck or the closest approximation of it. It was fun for about a week but it's already the same four decks (dwarves, nilfgaard, eredin weather, morkvarg skellige) over and over, if you're lucky, maybe control scoiatel or queensguard. This is going to continue to be a sticking point with this game. Maybe it's worse because the variance in this game is very low by card game standards so sleazing out a win with a suboptimal deck is less common. (Getting 5 out of my 6 muster cards in my opening hand, a 3% chance, happened 5/7 games today so that's not helping matters).

This is what made the game atrocious (imo) by the end of closed beta. I don't know what the solution is, no card game's been able to crack it.

I'd guess any problems are probably being magnified by beta being populated by mostly tryhards who are looking to gain a ground floor advantage in a new game and are actively connected to resources that rapidly distribute information and consolidate the meta though. I'd expect this to change at least at lower ranks when (if?) the game gets an influx of casual players.

Class Warcraft
Apr 27, 2006

History has shown us that the love of power will always exceed the power of love. Plan accordingly.


I think the main problem is that generally players only get to field approx 15 cards in any game so everyone picks the 25 most powerful cards to make minimum deck size and rolls with that. I suspect if decks needed to be more like 35/40 cards we'd see a lot more diversity.

Xtanstic
Nov 22, 2007

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS


Grizzled Patriarch posted:

Jesus Christ the amount of exp needed to unlock ranked mode is insane.

I know. I've been slow rolling getting 6 crowns a day and i'm still rank 6.

I'm F2P except for dropping 20$ on kegs so my collection isn't diverse enough to build a competitive ranked deck anyway because I'm unwilling to mill everything but my main deck.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

Hi!


Class Warcraft posted:

I think the main problem is that generally players only get to field approx 15 cards in any game so everyone picks the 25 most powerful cards to make minimum deck size and rolls with that. I suspect if decks needed to be more like 35/40 cards we'd see a lot more diversity.

Good decks are all alike; every bad deck is bad in its own way. - Anna Cardenina

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


No Wave posted:

The game's already total cancer again because every single deck you face in every game mode is a top-level netdeck or the closest approximation of it. It was fun for about a week but it's already the same four decks (dwarves, nilfgaard, eredin weather, morkvarg skellige) over and over, if you're lucky, maybe control scoiatel or queensguard. This is going to continue to be a sticking point with this game. Maybe it's worse because the variance in this game is very low by card game standards so sleazing out a win with a suboptimal deck is less common. (Getting 5 out of my 6 muster cards in my opening hand, a 3% chance, happened 5/7 games today so that's not helping matters).

This is what made the game atrocious (imo) by the end of closed beta. I don't know what the solution is, no card game's been able to crack it.

just throwing cards together to figure out what works gets you 90% of the way to a netdeck unless you're a deeply retarded northman.

Darke GBF
Dec 30, 2006

The cold never bothered me anyway~


Did my good deed for the day.

Had a weather monsters guy strung up. Round three I have two cards left in hand with huge brokvar hunters on the board, he's out of cards. Score is 28-28.

Emote "Watch this" and pass. Felt good, man.

Thinking
Jan 22, 2009



Well it didn't take long for this game to get extremely stale, only around 1700 mmr but I think 9/10 games I play the same Nilfgaard deck with various tweaks between whatever ridiculous golds/silvers they've decided to throw in and miracle cycle through for by the end of round 1. Apparently they're nerfing Vico Novices but not soon enough imo

Captainicus
Feb 22, 2013



I hope that regular adjustments happen so all those people finding ranked mode boring can enjoy themselves, I usually intentionally play bad decks and hover around low ranks so there is more variety. I haven't got ranked unlocked again post reset, but still having lots of fun.

Strategy wise, what is the advantage of the blue stripes commando's trio ability (besides thematically summoning ves)? I thought their main advantage was to combo with the kaedweni sergeant, and then you just get a random strength three dude that can cause you to get unlucky with clear skies?

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER

6th Anniversary Edition


No Wave posted:

The game's already total cancer again because every single deck you face in every game mode is a top-level netdeck or the closest approximation of it. It was fun for about a week but it's already the same four decks (dwarves, nilfgaard, eredin weather, morkvarg skellige) over and over, if you're lucky, maybe control scoiatel or queensguard. This is going to continue to be a sticking point with this game. Maybe it's worse because the variance in this game is very low by card game standards so sleazing out a win with a suboptimal deck is less common. (Getting 5 out of my 6 muster cards in my opening hand, a 3% chance, happened 5/7 games today so that's not helping matters).

This is what made the game atrocious (imo) by the end of closed beta. I don't know what the solution is, no card game's been able to crack it.

The problem with these digital card games that i've always had from the get-go is how limited the set sizes are. Compare to MTG for example. By the time it had been around for a year or so, it had like 800 cards, none of which were bound to any arbitrary deck building restriction inherently (not talking about restricted and banned lists) except for color. In Gwent, you have around 300, most of which are limited to specific categories. Hearthstone is the same way, it's just so drat limited. Honestly, if Wizards handled the digitalization of MTG better, I don't know if HS would have ever became a thing.

Gwent will grow old very fast for me unless new cards come about at a rate that sets a new standard for the digital TCG industry, which is probably unlikely to happen.

edit: I just called something where you can't even trade cards a trading card game

BabyRyoga fucked around with this message at May 31, 2017 around 06:19

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Captainicus posted:

I hope that regular adjustments happen so all those people finding ranked mode boring can enjoy themselves, I usually intentionally play bad decks and hover around low ranks so there is more variety. I haven't got ranked unlocked again post reset, but still having lots of fun.

Strategy wise, what is the advantage of the blue stripes commando's trio ability (besides thematically summoning ves)? I thought their main advantage was to combo with the kaedweni sergeant, and then you just get a random strength three dude that can cause you to get unlucky with clear skies?
You can Dandelion any that are in your deck and pull them out with the 6 str units you have. They're at the bottom of your deck, so rally won't screw you. I played a deck that used a lot of those neat mechanics, but unfortunately dwarves usually have a stronger round 1 which makes the deck pretty useless. It was very fun for the first few days though.

BabyRyoga posted:

Gwent will grow old very fast for me unless new cards come about at a rate that sets a new standard for the digital TCG industry, which is probably unlikely to happen.
20 every two months. Srsly. I don't know how they plan on making money that way either.

No Wave fucked around with this message at May 31, 2017 around 06:30

The Gorp
Jan 7, 2013

My style is impetuous,
My defenses are impregnable
My arms are tired

When MTG came out there were completely useless cards and things like Ancestral Recall.
This game could have made a bunch of random cards and threw them at the player, but it shows restraint.

Thinking
Jan 22, 2009



The game is also going to boast a singleplayer campaign when properly launched, so there is that. If they're even just a little bit better than the Hearthstone adventures the game will have more to offer

The Gorp
Jan 7, 2013

My style is impetuous,
My defenses are impregnable
My arms are tired

Class Warcraft posted:

I think the main problem is that generally players only get to field approx 15 cards in any game so everyone picks the 25 most powerful cards to make minimum deck size and rolls with that. I suspect if decks needed to be more like 35/40 cards we'd see a lot more diversity.

I like not having to own tons and tons of cards.
25 decklist means you don't need to fill another 15 slots with good cards that you don't have.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011



hampig posted:

Right at this moment the problems No Wave are talking about are much less severe in Hearthstone, which itself didn't run into massive problems like this until around the release of its second expansion. That's as good a baseline as any for online CCGs, let's not pretend the only answer is "get out".


I'd guess any problems are probably being magnified by beta being populated by mostly tryhards who are looking to gain a ground floor advantage in a new game and are actively connected to resources that rapidly distribute information and consolidate the meta though. I'd expect this to change at least at lower ranks when (if?) the game gets an influx of casual players.

Blizzard let Undertaker run rampart for months, and the applied a nerf that everybody pointed out at the start. Secret Paladin also ran wild for 2 entire expansions untouched. Shaman for an entire year was head and shoulders the best class of the game. Un'goro is probably their best expansion after LoE, but I think a lot of it is due to the rotation covering a lot of problems with Blizzard's recent gameplay decisions. It's twice now that their only solution for classes that dominate utterly is to wait out for the rotation to remove significant cards and then just print a lot of nothing.



I don't think the Gwent meta is anywhere as stale or awful to play as it was at the end of CB, which was the absolute worst point the game ever was in it's short live span. Though in the end CDPR made the correct choice, even if their silence was infuriating, killed factions abilities and revamped a huge chunk of the game. I don't think at the moment there is a card or pair of cards that are completely warping the game, RNR and Drought are powerful, but they far from the back breakers they appear to be when you first see them in action. My issue is that in a balance patch where it made so many things overtuned, you have to play this undertuned cards if you want to progress and that is no fun.


More cards will be good, as long as they are good or interesting every little dude having an ability is awesome no matter how dumb it is(like that silver woman in skellige). Singleplayer from the looks of it is going to be a big part of the game, so I guess the "Comes with Witcher 4 mini-game" might just end up true. Other game modes are planned so there will be something when ladder fatigue enters, I just hope CDPR doesn't gently caress them up like Blizzard did with Arena.


Game is good again, though yeah there could be a lot less Calviet's around.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006


Okay, quick keg question:

Zoltan Chivay or Varbjorn? Don't really play either decks atm, tbh.

General Morden
Mar 3, 2013

GOTTA HAVE THAT PAX BISONICA


zoltan chivay's good in dwarf ST

even in a non-dwarf ST deck he's pretty good because he'll let you drag units out of weather

Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."

Grimey Drawer

Megazver posted:

Okay, quick keg question:

Zoltan Chivay or Varbjorn? Don't really play either decks atm, tbh.

I've only ever seen Zoltan used of those two, occasionally he swung the game.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006


And he's my dwarfy bud! Grabbing 'im.

RatHat
Dec 31, 2007


Made a super frost heavy Monsters deck. Yep it's super busted and is gonna get nerfed into the ground.

Megazver posted:

Okay, quick keg question:

Zoltan Chivay or Varbjorn? Don't really play either decks atm, tbh.

Varbjorn is one of the worst Golds in the game.

RatHat fucked around with this message at May 31, 2017 around 09:19

Chuf
Jun 28, 2011

I had that weird dream again.


I thought the spell heavy ST deck someone posted earlier was a meme but I came up against it at around 1300 mmr. Turns out it's real easy to beat if you're playing Skellige and are running 3 Mardroeme (which you should be). As soon as I realised my Mork was just getting poo poo on by weather I passed early to force their Eithne into Saskia/Roach and then in round 2 they just passed because they want efficiency out of their Dol Blathanna Protectors I'm assuming but then in round 3 after mulliganing every chance I could get for my mushrooms I just wasted all my cards waiting for their protectors to come out, threw down a gold for points and then Mardroeme'd 2 Protectors and Gigni'd the third. I just found it very satisfying to almost immediately recognise a deck, know what's coming and then beat it.

Chuf fucked around with this message at May 31, 2017 around 11:09

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


The Gorp posted:

When MTG came out there were completely useless cards and things like Ancestral Recall.

Magic has never stopped having useless cards. Alabaster Leech says hi.

ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Expecto Patronum! Expelliarmus! Abracadabra! Argh, none of these are working.
Oh well, fall back plan.
ROOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!


General Morden posted:

zoltan chivay's good in dwarf ST

even in a non-dwarf ST deck he's pretty good because he'll let you drag units out of weather

He can also drag your opponents units, so you can do things like move that consume monster away from all his eggs or that Morkvarg away from all his longships.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011



Robutt posted:

I thought the spell heavy ST deck someone posted earlier was a meme but I came up against it at around 1300 mmr. Turns out it's real easy to beat if you're playing Skellige and are running 3 Mardroeme (which you should be). A soon as I realised my Mork was just getting poo poo on by weather I passed early to force their Ethine into Cerys/Roach and then in round 2 they just passed because they want efficiency out of their Dol Blathanna Protectors I'm assuming but then in round 3 after mulliganing every chance I could get for my mushrooms I just wasted all my cards waiting for their protectors to come out, threw down a gold for points and then Mardroeme'd 2 Protectors and Gigni'd the third. I just found it very satisfying to almost immediately recognise a deck, know what's coming and then beat it.

The version that just runs the 3 dudes is really bad, and the moment you become aware that his entire board presence is Saskia/Roach/Leader and 3 clowns it's game over. It has a real bad match up against NG too, as it gets completely run over by Peter Saar and you can basically Tibor or Vilgefortz their units without punish.

Some lists are starting to add more units, the hand buffers or dorfs, the special spies, and they just seem to play a lot better.

Chuf
Jun 28, 2011

I had that weird dream again.


Electronico6 posted:

The version that just runs the 3 dudes is really bad, and the moment you become aware that his entire board presence is Saskia/Roach/Leader and 3 clowns it's game over. It has a real bad match up against NG too, as it gets completely run over by Peter Saar and you can basically Tibor or Vilgefortz their units without punish.

Some lists are starting to add more units, the hand buffers or dorfs, the special spies, and they just seem to play a lot better.

Yeah I just came up against another one. This time my Hjalmar got D-shackled and an Ithlinne in round 3 had me worried but it turned out they were relying on the protectors again and I had my Mardroeme's ready so it was another easy win. Another little trick I tried and succeeded at was playing Donar pretty late to grab one of their protectors that they were banking on grabbing with a Rally.

I'm a little worried at it's prevalence at the moment (or maybe at my mmr) - as easy as I'm finding it to beat, I really don't want another weather deck to become popular.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011



Robutt posted:

Yeah I just came up against another one. This time my Hjalmar got D-shackled and an Ithlinne in round 3 had me worried but it turned out they were relying on the protectors again and I had my Mardroeme's ready so it was another easy win. Another little trick I tried and succeeded at was playing Donar pretty late to grab one of their protectors that they were banking on grabbing with a Rally.

I'm a little worried at it's prevalence at the moment (or maybe at my mmr) - as easy as I'm finding it to beat, I really don't want another weather deck to become popular.

Reveal Sweers meta


But I dunno, I think the deck is good with some better thought put into it's build, but I see much better players than the average guy struggle piloting it, that most folk will try it one or two times will hit a wall and just drop it.

hampig
Feb 11, 2004
...curioser and curioser...

The Gorp posted:

When MTG came out there were completely useless cards and things like Ancestral Recall.
This game could have made a bunch of random cards and threw them at the player, but it shows restraint.

When MtG came out the internet didn't exist, and that's probably the real reason that you get stale metas in competitive games.

You could probably also go a long way towards fixing it by removing all rewards for winning, leaving winning as its own reward, instead of incentivizing efficiency and optimization. Messes with the business model though.

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Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011


I too find myself pretty much done with the current meta of smashing my still not fully complete queensguard deck up against an endless row of vicovaro medic hard counters to my deck. Now I could get hopelessly smashed enough times for another couple hundred dust and branch out into morkvarg but gently caress chasing yet another deck that MAYBE won't end up on the rear end end of the meta again when I get there.

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