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Speaking of weird Nilfgaard, has anyone else been doing Emhyr mill? Its the only Emhyr deck I've found to be competitive in the gold ranks, but it has some consistency issues and I find myself misplaying it a lot. It's not as dicey as the Fringilla gambit deck I ran (making people cry with a 90 point Letho at the start of round 2 was amazing, but hard to pull of consistently and one D bomb or shackles + scorch would lose you the game) and it doesn't demand crazy card counting the way Dash tempo does (haven't tried Dash control), but it's still one of the higher skill cap Nilfgaard decks and really easy to misplay. There's different Mill netdecks including some with Calveit, but after some experimentation with poo poo like Treason (I wanted to see if I could make it worth a silver slot. I won some games by pulling axmen, spotters, etc, but it was just too random.) And using renew for double Avelach, I settled on having enough mill rather than more than enough. Right now I'm using Avelach for burst draw, Albrich for more draw, and Sweers for targeted milling (probably the trickiest card on the deck, he's amazing round one with a good targets, butvmostly useless round three when the opponent has already drawn/played their bronzes, and there's this constant dilemma of wanting to throw him out asap for full effect or save him for a juicy targets like reavers and nekkers). The rest of the deck is pretty standard nilf spy and Emhyr bounce stuff, but with reduced deck thinning. No golems, no roach, only 2 emisarries (debating a third), and an alzur's double-cross for grabbing either Alb or Sweets (I took Aesire out and switched my power commons to impera/rottosser just for this). Basically, the way it works is I rely on the fact that most (good) decks are 25 cards with lots of thinning. I have Emhyr/Cahir/decoy for bouncing Sweers or Albricht to thin my opponent's deck or give them crap draws and then hopefully in round three they'll be decked out a have a a hand full of useless tutors, orders units, and other poo poo they wish they could mulligan. Once they've decked out (or are just out of bronzes), Tibor becomes a 23 with no drawback, Vilgefortz is an Assassinate with an 8 point body, and, and Avelach or Albricht (if you haven't used them yet) are pure card advantage. The problem is getting that far. poo poo like rot tossers are fairly low tempo at first and there are a lot of combo pieces you want in your deck (like sweers) that can't be thrown out just any old time, plus the bounce kill combo itself is easy to gently caress up and get minimal use/tempo out of. I often find myself overplaying the first round or else passing early and getting shut out round 2 (there's nothing more frustrating than milling your opponent's whole deck and losing to the cards they drew.) Over all, my deck is an amazing counter to lean and mean CA/tempo decks and does surprisingly well against 30+ card NR decks (Sweers hard counters Henselt/pull and these decks have tons of cards they don't actually want ti draw. My greatest moment has been saving the Operator Reaver Hunter clone for round two, Sweersing and Vilgefortzing two into his graveyard and then bouncing a vicovaro so that I had three reavers and he only had two, then bouncing the littlest Reaver twice more. My biggest problem has been against monsters. Consume in particular badly out powers me at first and then murders me with Gravehag (really looking forward to that nerf). I know I need to work on my passing game and never let monsters have last play, but I have to win rounds too and my power curve isn't cutting it. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Aug 10, 2017 03:12
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I've been the ranked noob in my share of games (I'm at 3700 now, but it took quite a while) and I think a lot of it is just people grinding with the same deck over and over and getting sloppy. I've certainly sat down and busted out my "ranked deck" plenty of times only to play like a total idiot who doesn't know how his cards work. I do know how my cards work, but when you've played the same deck fifty times that week, it's really easy to stop actually thinking. A lot of the time, people in casual are just sitting down for their daily or trying out new decks, so they may actually be playing a lot more intently than someone who's been hitting the new game button for the last two hours.
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Aug 10, 2017 08:51
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Skellige discard is one of the top decks right now for a reason.
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Aug 11, 2017 01:11
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Just had a nasty 7 game losing streak will my Emhyr mill deck, including my first ever mirror match which I lost because he drew Sweers first. Think Ill go back to dashgaard.
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Aug 11, 2017 02:39
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One of the promo maps had a spot on the map for "Witchers," but I've heard they may just be a subfaction/keyword. Don't really know enough about the Witcher setting to speculate otherwise. What's the deal with Toussaint again?
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Aug 12, 2017 09:53
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OK, cool. I've spent the last decade wandering around the swamp in Witcher 1, so I'm a little behind.
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Aug 12, 2017 11:42
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Magic Underwear posted:If there was a silver unit that put a "do nothing" spell in your hand, what would its point value have to be to be balanced? Its a bit like a spy but not quite. In some cases the spell would be entirely useless, in other cases it would be stupidly good. I can't come up with any number that I can defend really well. They don't do this for a reason. Octvist is probably closest and your opponent gets several turns to shut it down. The spies are all minimum ten for your opponent and most people still run them because card advantage is crazy strong in Gwent. Yeah the card you draw with Cantarella is usually better than a blank card, but it's not usually worth giving ten to your opponent. The power is in having that extra card at all. Imagine playing your hypothetical silver round one. Unlike the spy, it's not negative tempo, so it doesn't keep you from winning the round. Then your blank card becomes a way to bleed them of a useful card round two or, if you empty pass, a way to secure last play round three. With Octvist, Ciri, or a spy in the mix as well, you could go down two cards to win round one and still get last play round three. Even if your silver was just a blank spell that gave you a blank spell, it could still break the game. There's a reason there's only one spy per faction and all the other draw is symmetrical.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:50
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Well, there are huge tempo costs to playing spies. I've had games where I drew Cantarella late and lost because of it. Playing last isn't always that valuable and spies can't guarantee that (especially sinc your opponent likely runs one too). Having a second spy would increase your deck thinning, help pull combo pieces and tech cards, and probably give you last play, so it would be crazy good a lot of the time, but you'd have to have enough power in the rest of your deck and consciously play around the huge tempo losses. Certain decks -- like Dashgaard -- could become insane powerhouses, but a lot of other ones wouldn't benefit nearly as much or be actively harmed by it (plenty of people don't run spies). It would probably really bad for game balance and deck diversity. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 03:28
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Captainicus posted:I never noticed Johnny said DISCARD something from your hand and replace it with a copy of same color from your opponent. That'd probably be pretty funny with cerys / olgierd / morkvargh, but I don't have those cards It's pretty fun with Ciri:Dash, too as you can get a fifth gold out of it. Plus it protects her from getting shut down by first round shackles. If you've got a solid draw/tutor engine like Stephan+Albrich you can even play her again the same round you discarded her. Main downside is sometimes the gold you pull is bullshit like Saskia, Cahir (if you aren't Nilfgaard), or some other deck specific card you can't really use. It's pretty great against Monsters, Northern Realms, or Skellige, but Scoia'tael and Nilfgaard are bigger gambles because their golds tend to be more situational.
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Aug 14, 2017 12:13
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I basically don't notice if I get a gg or not. The bonus is a pittance. Having people first round forfeit because their gimmick deck didn't pan out is why I mostly play ranked now Anyway, funny story, I built the Dashgaard deck posted a few days ago and my very first match was against Emhyr mill with the shackles Avelach trick. I was decked out half way through round 2, lol. That's what I get for testing it in casual first. Hardly anyone is running mill in ranked (and I've seen first hand why). Incidentally, has anyone noticed this tendency of fairly well ranked Monster players running these horribly bloated 30+ card decks? I can't believe it's a specific counter to mill (though Lord knows it works for that) because only a few of us run it. Is it just that playing monsters is basically easy mode at lower levels and these people never had to learn proper deck building, or is there something I'm missing?
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Aug 15, 2017 13:10
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I've seen it multiple times with dagon and at least five times with consume and actually had to stop running mill because I kept losing to decks that were otherwise complete bullshit. I have no clue why. Maybe my losing streak just dropped my mmr enough to play really lovely decks. Anyway, I think monsters are just too strong in the meta to make mill viable.
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Aug 16, 2017 01:54
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Firstborn posted:Are those beginner decks on gwentify still ok? I kind of want to build a beginner nilf deck, as they were my favorite W3 faction. Anyone? The first few I saw either looked like complete poo poo or weren't really "starters" (lol at trying to make Ciri: dash work at level one), but there are probably a few good ones if you look. The big problem is Nilfgaard has probably the worst starter deck because it's all built around Emhyr and bouncing deploy effects. Emhyr is one of the worst leaders and almost unplayable at higher levels without a very specialized gimmick. At lower levels, he's more competitive, but the card pool they start you with was over nerfed two patches ago and is full of mediocre or borderline trash cards like black infantry arbalest. The more competitive Nilfgaard builds like reveal, spies, and tempo all take a bunch of cards you won't have, so your best bets are either muddling through with a mediocre Emhyr or Calveit until you have more cards (I did this. It worked fine.) or starting with a different faction until you have more cards. Don't scrap all your extra cards to make a deck that will get you to level ten slightly faster but will be utterly uncompetitive afterward. It's a waste. Just learning how to play the cards you have is enough to get you there. My best advice is to take advantage of Nilfgaard's strong utility cards and try to control the flow of the game. Rot tosser is a loving super star at low levels, but it takes a little while to figure out when to use it (it's often smart to save one for round 3 so you can hit their big guys unopposed). Vicovaro medics can really hurt skellige discard decks by pulling Queens guards or other ressurection targets. Emisarries give you solid deck thinning even if you aren't running spy tech. Combat engineers for resilience, Nauzicaa standard barriers for weather clear, and that sort of thing give Nilfgaard way better options for bronze control than any other faction and that's something you can exploit at low levels.
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Aug 16, 2017 06:20
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Firstborn posted:That's all super great advice, thanks. Could you suggest a starting deck for Nilf, or should I just use the starter included? The basic starter will get you through the tutorials and work fine for a little while after that. Then you can start getting a feel for what you like and don't like. You'll want to swap out the arbalests and spear dudes pretty quickly though. A lot will depend on what cards you pull in your first few packs, but the basic spy kit of three rot tossers, three emisarries, and three impera brigades is a really strong addition, or you can get alchemists and daerlan foot soldiers.
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Aug 16, 2017 06:46
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Aesire can also shut down Queens guards if you can fit her into your deck. Just be sure to play her after they've used their targeted discard. Vicovaros are less of a card commitment and also work quite well. If you're running Letho in combo with fring, scorch or d bomb, using him to nuke the qgs is a really solid play, but I wouldn't use a gold slot just for anti qg tech. I have gotten incredible utility and some game winning plays out of Letho, but his value dropped a lot when weather got nerfed and I'd only run him as part of a combo. A seven-point gold is significantly below curve and, if you use him as removal, he'll kill your tempo unless you have a good bomb to follow up. If they haven't buffed the qgs, lethoing them may not even be worth it.
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Aug 18, 2017 07:07
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So switching to Dashgaard was the best thing that ever happened to me. I've gone up 500 points since I ditched my lovely mill deck last week and I'm having a blast. I just hit 4k and am on track to hit 20 with some cushion left over. I'll never speak I'll of net decking again.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:36
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Captainicus posted:I'm definitely agreeing that it could be good, I hope scorch says 'bronze or silver' or unseen elder says 'can't be scorched' and also remove geralt igni from the game. Seriously. Scorch that only counts the enemy side isn't something I think is necessary. I don't think Igni is completely irredeemable, but it has been quite oppressive the last few months and needs a change. I think making it so that it only ever hit one unit or making it so it could hit your side too would do lot to bring it where it needs to be. With gold immunity gone, they absolutely have to rework him anyway.
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Aug 23, 2017 07:29
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Comp-U-poo poo posted:Igni is fine. Igni is a lot more manageable once you've drilled a bunch of mitigation strategies into your head, but it has the same problem uber-weather had where it can just absolutely wreck newer players who don't know how to play around it yet. I still lose to Igni now and then, but it's usually either because I was playing carelessly or because I was behind and would have lost to a bunch of different power cards. Consider that Igni is one of most powerful neutral golds and isn't archetype dependent like Ciri Dash, Avallach, Vill, or Triss butt, so any deck could have it at any time (and frequently will) and if you slip up against someone who is running it, it can easily tank your whole game. I've played enough that staggering my power and counting to twenty for each row are almost second nature, but new players don't know to do that, so they tend to get hit much, much harder. I don't think the current abundance of easy pub-stomper cards are particularly good for the game and it limits the available deck archetypes. Plus I'd be grateful for the chance to free up some of the mental real estate I'm currently devoting to counting to 20 every round of every game. Maybe that's just me though.
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Aug 23, 2017 08:39
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Igni and Scorch are the main reason Fringella doesn't see play outside of gimmick decks. It's also a real damper on a lot of NR unit swarm/buffing decks and I suspect it's the main reason reveal isn't competitive at higher levels. I don't know if either card is "broken" but having either or both available for any deck has definitely had the effect of shifting the meta away from big bronzes/silvers and made securing gold power far more important. Whether that's good for the game or bad is a matter of opinion.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:09
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That loving deck has made me totally stall at 4k. I've had a positive win rate in all my other match ups with Dashgaard, but I just can't reliably beat Dagon. I keep losing by like 3-5 points with no idea what I did wrong. Probably loving up my passing game or playing weather clear early or something, but I just don't know. Any tips?
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Aug 24, 2017 08:27
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Yeah, I switched back to two standard bearers (really don't want to have to put a third in) and I've tried the tempo Cant stuff with mixed results. I think I'm losing too much tempo with pikes and Octvist getting killed/locked and over playing round one. I'll try being more strategic, but I think this will always be a fairly rough match up. Might have to switch to a less control-oriented deck.
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Aug 24, 2017 10:07
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I think dbc= dun banner cavalry, but I sort of disagree on that one because it's pretty easy to draw them out if you went second and have thaler. At that point you're up two cards and only behind like ten points, so you were never really "behind." Just another reason why going first loving blows in this game.
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Aug 26, 2017 00:12
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Definitely concerned about the power creep. I'm glad that spygaard got some love, but I'm worried it will just outshine the other archetypes. I was really enjoying Dashgaard, too. It's probably dead now though.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:13
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I'm on vacation so I can't play for another two weeks (my friend is milling cards for me though.) Hopefully the meta will stabilize by then, but I'm a little freaked out by some of these changes. It seems like Dagon, Discard, and Dwarfs are all going to be amazing.
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Aug 29, 2017 20:37
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The Gorp posted:Chimpiqq is a player who did Avalach bounce Nilfgaurd, spent 20 minutes to play a set and then disconnects the last turn instead of surrendering. Don't dox me
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Aug 31, 2017 23:27
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I think agile would make the most sense as something a significant minority of cards had, but that still felt "special." One of the big problems cdpr has had is that they just can't seem to pin down how powerful they want row dependent effects to be. Uber-weather, Coral/hailstorm, lacerate, and Igni all really harshly punished row stacking and it seemed like they "solved" the problem by making a bunch of power bronzes agile. It's not that this is wrong exactly, but it is really weird and arbitrary which cards are agile and which aren't. A lot of barely playable bronzes (like arbalests) would benefit hugely from agile, but they seem to prefer giving it to cards that are powerful already.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:50
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Huh, I had no clue Crach worked that way either. This game really isn't as clear about these things as it should be. They need to bring in one of those super anal mtg editors.
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Sep 4, 2017 04:36
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I think so much of it purely depends on where you are on the ladder. I played through the Axmen and weather eras for months but Dagon and Bran only started getting really ubiquitous around 3k. Even then I had a pretty good run of it with various mediocre Nilfgaard decks for quite a while because there were a lot of netdecking scrubs who didn't know how to use their hot poo poo decks well enough. Then at 4k I just slammed into a loving wall of Dagons and realized I wasn't good enough to beat top tier decks as played by people who actually knew what they were doing. I could probably have made it to rank 20 if I joined them instead of trying to beat them, but instead I took a vacation. I think 2-3k is probably in a good place as far as deck diversity goes, but the people who've been grinding since closed beta are stuck playing each other and there's very little room at the top for loving around with suboptimal decks.
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Sep 13, 2017 00:31
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Yeah, tempo and card advantage are the key to winning in Gwent. In a given round, you want to expend just enough resources that your opponent has to either pass when you're even (or up!) on cards and give you the win or else go down cards trying to beat you. Going down one card to win round one is fine, because it gives you the initiative and you can make your opponent play a card to catch up, or bleed them for all they're worth, but beware over-committing. Winning a round two cards down will usually cost you the game. Likewise it's easy to think you're bleeding your opponent when actually they're bleeding you. Keep a close eye on the card tracker, especially if you went first (which sucks in this game), beware your opponent's thirty point power plays (most decks have one), don't waste your own power cards/combos in rounds you can't win or will win anyway, and remember, you only have to win two rounds. It's way better for you if you win round one, but don't throw the game away trying to do it. Sometimes you have the just cut your losses.
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Sep 15, 2017 06:10
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Still not sure whether running a golem just for Cynthia is worth it. I'm sure it's great when it works, but seems a little dicey with emissaries/Cant/Joachim. I run roach, personally.
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Sep 18, 2017 19:05
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Makes sense. I run the version where you use impera brigades for tempo, so I have more room for silvers I guess.
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Sep 18, 2017 19:59
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Yeah, even if you're just loving around, having a deck with specific counters to the netdeck du jour is fairly important for your mental well being. Those folks that refuse to run a single weather clear or targeted removal confuse the hell out of me.
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Sep 19, 2017 11:13
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Captainicus posted:5 games in a row against enemies packing scorch when I'm trying to play resilient Unseen Elder deck...don't tell me scorch is back and is going to be in every deck, I liked not having to be concerned about playing multiple same strength units like henselt -> drummers or multiple ghouls eating fiends. Don't run Unseen Elder. There's a reason most consume decks switched to Dagon and trying to fight the tide is ridiculous. Take it from a guy who wasted way too long playing Fringella gambit, any deck that relies on getting a single big resilient unit on the board is going to be really streaking and unreliable. Standard meta these days seems to be at least one targeted removal card in every deck, plus mass removal if you have low tempo or are playing control. Without gold immunity, you're a sitting duck. Either try to bait out their removal early and hope for the best, or run a different deck. As for Scorch, it's a pretty solid counter for a lot of Nilf Spies and NR decks, so expect it to stick around in the meta.
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Sep 23, 2017 12:26
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Dagon weather will always be pretty solid because of the way weather clear works. He has a body and even if someone clears weather the very next turn, you still get that tick of damage If your opponent uses clear skies, that's a whole turn that won't get them anything besides maybe like a 3 point silver mage. The only times you might actually lose tempo by playing Dagon is when they have targeted weather clear with a body, like a Standard Bearer, they have some other counter like Zoltan, or they're in a position where they can just ignore the ticking weather and out-tempo you. Even if Dagon is the only weather card in the deck and you're not running foglets, I'd still say he's a stronger play than Unseen Elder and certainly much harder to punish. I've played against plenty of Dagon decks that just ran him, Woodland Spirits, water hag, and a solitary foglet. At that point, it's not really a "weather deck," it's just a deck that happens to have weather as part of its toolkit. Eredin seems fine too, but only really makes sense in the Wild Hunt deck and I feel like the WH synergy isn't quite where it needs to be yet. Dagon just has a cool thing he does and, aside from maybe wanting to run a foglet, doesn't really require you to commit a bunch of other cards to making him work, which is the main advantage he had even before they broke UE. Dagon isn't going to win the game for you single-handedly anymore (unless your opponent is out of weather clears), but he's still stupidly easy to get value out of and is popular for a reason.
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Sep 23, 2017 14:39
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I think mill is fine and belongs in the game as a counter current to hyper-thinning decks that would otherwise be too absurdly reliable. Card games are supposed to get replayability and variety through the random element of which cards you draw and which you don't, but Gwent has unusually small deck sizes compared to most card games (so people could draw their golds consistently?) and as tutors and thinning have gotten more prevalent, it has gotten easier to build a deck that will never leave your most valuable cards sitting undrawn at the bottom. These decks are inherently more consistent, but also less interesting to play with and against. Mill is a useful check on that trend, but the problem it has right now is it itself is a very consistent deck because of all its drawing. I think the way forward is probably to make Avelach more limited and give mill other tools to make up for it.
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Sep 24, 2017 01:47
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Weirdly, making the other monsters competitive could actually be a significant boost to Dagon. With current meta, people are usually running at least one weather clear because the silver mages are all really good cards anyway, but the other weather clears are more unreliable/low tempo, so you don't want to run them unless you have to. Gold weather by itself isn't really prevalent enough to force people to run more than one or two clears (and only "became" good because people were skimping on clears), but given that Dagon was already a top-tier leader and now he's the only one most Monsters run, you can expect to be playing against a Dagon deck like a third of the time. This means that those otherwise sub-par clear effects like Griffin and Standard Bearer become much safer to include because getting to immediately shut down your opponent's weather in one game is probably going to matter more than playing a slightly low tempo card in the next two. Put Unseen Consume (or some hypothetical non-frost-based Eredin) back in the mix and the rate at which you run into Dagon decks drops dramatically, which means (assuming no other weather decks become ubiquitous) that anti-weather tech becomes less benefit with more cost. People don't want to tech against a leader they only see every ten games or so, so they stop running clears, but that of course means that murdering people with weather monsters becomes a valid strategy again, which would make Dagon more popular, which would make people tech against weather again, which would make Dagon less popular, which would make people stop running weather tech, which... huh. So I guess that's why weather is unbalanceable.
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Sep 27, 2017 11:50
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Weather is neat and I'm all for it as long as it serves to open up the design space instead of limiting it, but the devs have had a really bad sense of how to balance ongoing effects and keep accidentally designing metas where weakass tech cards like first light and shackles are necessary/worthless. Buffing first light is a good thing. The real question I have with weather is, where can it go? "Damage high/low unit in row(s)" is a pretty generic affect that the seven existing weathers cover pretty well. What's next?
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Sep 29, 2017 07:52
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Subvisual Haze posted:Hey a new Gwentlemen Meta Report: http://gwentlemen.com/snapshot/ Spy nilf is pretty good though... E. I should say that one reason spynilf can feel underwhelming is that it has a lot of moving parts and it's not always obvious when you've misplayed. I've been messing around with half-baked nr decks and beaten some spies players that really should have cleaned my clock because they screwed up the passing game. When I was playing spies I threw a lot of games by being too low tempo, over-committing, or burning through my big combos at the wrong time. It's a hard deck to get the hang of. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 07:19
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Darke GBF posted:Spy Nilfgaard is more than capable of winning any matchup. It's really strong. Yeah I switched back to it a few days ago and went from rank 14 to 16 with only two or three losses. I know I'm playing in the scrub ranks still (I pretty much took September off from Gwent), but this deck feels really strong in most matchups and it seems like the Emhyr version is a little bit less fragile than Calveit was. Even when you don't draw your emisarries first round, it still feels like there's a lot you can do to win.
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Oct 12, 2017 07:01
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That's very good advice, thanks. What silver/ gold cores are yall running? Ive been doing caelach, van, cant, and Joaquim. I've tried it with Aesire and roach in the last two slots and also with aukes and Iris and I'm not sure which I like better. My gold core of menno, rain, Cahir, and Stefan has worked very well so far, but it's a little low power sometimes. For bronzes I do 3x impera brigades, emissaries, and infiltrators, but I've only been running one enforcer. I cut down to 1x assassin and vicovaro to make room for a third nauzicaa, but that may have been a mistake.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:58
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Good post, Dennyk. I definitely feel like I didn't lose much cutting down to one assassin. I've only been running one enforcer for exactly the reason you described, but going up to two makes sense because getting both out would make them way more effective as removal. I've been running Stefan because he lets me get Rainfarn consistently or can set up huge nauzicaas pulls otherwise. He's definitely a lot more useful with assire in the deck (so you can shuffle your Emhyr bounced 13 point nauzicaas back in and gauranteed pull them), but I could see how having removal in that slot might be better. I've been running three infiltrators because they're spy synergy with a nine point body (also a solid Emhyr target if someone drops weather on them), but I can see only wanting to run two. I'll cut one for an enforcer and see how that works. I 100% agree on the vicovaros. 1-2 is great, but I've never seen a deck that wanted three.
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Oct 13, 2017 22:18
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