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isildur
May 31, 2000
Forum Veteran

dreadmojo posted:

Kiva, is there a story behind why the mechbay was such a pain to change?
Just always something more important to do, is all.

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Rectovagitron
Mar 13, 2007



Grimey Drawer

Just wanted to say thanks for all the fit tips! I feel pretty unstoppable now in early/mid-game. Now I just have to fix all my pilot skills that I screwed up early on. Some chumps gonna get DISMISSED. Might just wait until after flashpoint to see what the changes are, though.

I love talking about this game, I just need to convince more of my friends to buy it.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

Does a Nov 27th release mean you all are going to crunch through Thanksgiving?

I R SMART LIKE ROCK
Mar 10, 2003

I just want a hug.



I would assume it's done before that but are delaying the release, till after thanksgiving, so their full team is available for support if anything goes wrong with it

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

I guess that makes more sense than working through the holiday. If that's true then good on HBS. With all the horror stories you hear I assumed the worst.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Klyith posted:

OTOH I mentioned upthread that I don't like the sacrificial arms method of protection by intentionally taking side hits.

Organ Fiend posted:

Honestly, I've always thought that the "sacrificial arms" method (i.e. the one where you put all of your guns on one side of the mech) was a bad idea in BATTLETECH, and for that matter in the mechwarrior games as well. In BATTLETECH it means you just make it easier for your enemy to side-torso you. In mechwarror games, it just makes your mech easier to disable. It also makes your mech easier to kill once you start fighting opponents who know that power of side-torsoing mechs with favorable geometry.

Cyrano4747 posted:

It has the added problem in battletech of adding to your repair times and repair costs. Great, your heavy lost it's "ablative" arm and you're not out any weapons, but now you need to refit it in the Argo for a month and it's not available for the next contract. That's ignoring the repair costs.

It's not the end of the world, especially when you're late game and have multiple lances ready to go, but it's a huge pain in the balls when you've got two heavies to your name and really need that next mission to happen now so the bills get paid.

Intentionally taking side hits is for the most part dumb because it significantly increases leg hit chance (legs are important!), but ablative arms and torsos are good because it's straight up hits that just don't matter. (Note: I said for the most part. There are situations where it's an obvious call, like one leg being really beat up while the other side is fresh, from taking frontal distribution fire).

Let's ignore legs, center torso and the head, since those are always mission critical, and so a mech is simplified to 4 sections: RA RT LT LA. For the sake of argument also assume equal hit chance between those.

Say you miss your melee attack against a Demolisher, boom you eat an AC20 shot for your troubles. That's a hit that's pushing a section into structure (and liable to take crits), or possibly outright blowing it up in the case of arms.

If you put all your weapons and components in say the LT like in a missile CN9-A, then that's a 75% chance that the hit you just took just doesn't matter. You don't care much. Sure it made the rest of the chassis more vulnerable by blowing through all that HP, and subsequent hits will start going for the adjacent sections, but you're not liable to randomly lose your important LT or its contents just yet so you can go and keep on trucking with the mission. That is the ablative components advantage.

"But Conspirationist!" I can hear you say. "If you take the hit on that LT then ALL your precious internals will be exposed. You'll have to retreat! OTOH, if you distribute your gear more evenly, then you can peel off an arm or a torso, and still keep on fighting with only some risk "

And you'd be correct, but... do you really want to do that? Because as you start collecting the good rare equipment variants like the (+4 dmg +5 acc) SRM6++, or the (+10 dmg +3 acc) LL+++, do you really want to put them on the line for a lovely contract? If one of those components is exposed, I say that mech is better off hanging back, maybe help take shots against things it won't take return fire from, and that's that. Doesn't matter if it's just 1 or 3 weapons in that case, you pull it back, because gently caress Malik they don't pay you enough for this poo poo.

It makes sense when that's not really a consideration, like early in the SP game when you don't really have rare variants, or in skirms where the mechs exist only for the drop and are going to get beat the gently caress up by an equivalent opfor, but if as you approach the midgame you're losing good variant equipment left and right then you're just either playing badly, or doing so well it doesn't even matter. Try upping the difficulty.

On a related note, since it was brought up by one of those posts, replacing empty arms and torsos is actually quite swift - just ~4 days each with middling tech upgrades, since you are ignoring the mounting costs which are usually the significant time budget of repair & replacements. Given that you're usually going to spend 2 weeks traveling between systems for the next contract, that's an easily absorbed cost. Keep a single spare mech. The associated C-Bill costs are likewise really low.

This all comes from first-hand experience playing at max diff once that got introduced. 8 parts required made assembling good chassis a rare event, so I was rocking 4~4.5 skull missions on mediums for a long while, and I only ever had to call it quits on a mission once. And let me tell you: ablative HP for the important bits works excellent when every loss is a real hit, so there's no way it's somehow less effective at keeping you afloat in less punishing economic settings. I never had multiple lances - at most I had a spare mech or two. I had to hunt down and buy all my rare poo poo! Things took so long to build up, every pilot, every mech, every rare component was a cherished special snowflake.

So, yeah, considering I build for brawling and dislike ez pz grind, all my combats were brutal affairs that have given me some very firm opinions on what it means to fight effectively while safeguarding your important assets.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at Oct 20, 2018 around 17:39

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


Which one of you little hooligans mentioned politics?!


The flip side of that is look at Paradox's Stellaris patch a few patches ago. I forget the exact issue but they had a really, really bad bug that got through and get released with a patch, but they released it the day before their staff went off for a three day weekend or something. I forget the details, but the gist was the bug was spotted in almost immediately by people who patched and hosed up games over a weekend because there was no one in the office to issue a hotfix.

CampingCarl
Apr 28, 2008



I haven't had much time to play this game since it game out despite ordering from the kickstarter and now I see people talking about mods which I didn't even know was a thing. Are there any must have quality of life mods I should be getting?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


CampingCarl posted:

I haven't had much time to play this game since it game out despite ordering from the kickstarter and now I see people talking about mods which I didn't even know was a thing. Are there any must have quality of life mods I should be getting?

Here are the instructions for getting the mod loader set up.

And here are some QOL mods:

Klyith posted:

Awesome mods for stock play:
BTML Color LOS mod - never be confused by indirect fire lines seen from directly overhead again. Plus have alternate color sets.
Pilot Health Popup - pilot injuries have an additional popup of "N/N health remaining". Makes capture by knockout much easier.
Quiet Darius - stop Darius from constantly reminding you about unspent XP.

Also:
Skip intro - jumps through the intro splash screens real quick

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

I do wish there was something to do with the hundreds of thousands of unspent xp - like a "legendary skill" you could get at something like 500k xp tied to the pilot's main skill branch concentration.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


I imagine the idea of a post-Thanksgiving release is helped by the fact that Paradox will probably be QA testing it during that time, and since they're Swedish, they don't care about Thanksgiving.

IAmThatIs
Nov 17, 2014


Sky Shadowing posted:

I imagine the idea of a post-Thanksgiving release is helped by the fact that Paradox will probably be QA testing it during that time, and since they're Swedish, they don't care about Thanksgiving.

Even tho paradox owns HBS now, I doubt HBS is on a swedish schedule.

isildur
May 31, 2000
Forum Veteran

BIG HEADLINE posted:

I do wish there was something to do with the hundreds of thousands of unspent xp - like a "legendary skill" you could get at something like 500k xp tied to the pilot's main skill branch concentration.
Hmmm. That's reasonable. Not necessarily a legendary skill, but I honestly didn't even think about xp accumulation at 10/10/10/10. I'll bring it up to the team and see what we come up with.

Pattonesque
Jul 14, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule

isildur posted:

Hmmm. That's reasonable. Not necessarily a legendary skill, but I honestly didn't even think about xp accumulation at 10/10/10/10. I'll bring it up to the team and see what we come up with.

maybe they could spend some time in a "teaching" role distributing unspent XP to rookies and the like

Cynic Jester
Apr 11, 2009

Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky


Just stop maxed out pilots from gaining XP, but let the overall amount of XP given for a mission stay the same, so levelling a rookie in the endgame goes 4 times faster.

RestRoomLiterature-
Jun 3, 2008

staying regular


Thatís good and all but can I just be able to rearrange my mechs in the bay without having to drop them in and out of storage?

Also in the end game where are floating tons of cash if you could ďorderĒ the purchase of rare weapons, or mechs built to certain specifications for a premium price. This cuts down on farming missions for that last piece of a mech of traveling the map looking for a +++

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


Which one of you little hooligans mentioned politics?!


RestRoomLiterature- posted:

That’s good and all but can I just be able to rearrange my mechs in the bay without having to drop them in and out of storage?

Also in the end game where are floating tons of cash if you could “order” the purchase of rare weapons, or mechs built to certain specifications for a premium price. This cuts down on farming missions for that last piece of a mech of traveling the map looking for a +++



Amechwarrior posted:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...elease.1124593/

Some 1.3 info was just posted detailing some of the changes to the base game like the new "Alliance" stage of high reputation and the ability to take jobs from pirates.

Also, DRAG AND DROP 'MECHBAY!

IAmThatIs
Nov 17, 2014


RestRoomLiterature- posted:

Thatís good and all but can I just be able to rearrange my mechs in the bay without having to drop them in and out of storage?

In the next patch

RestRoomLiterature-
Jun 3, 2008

staying regular


Iíll leave it up because I have to own not looking at the patch notes. Thanks for the heads up.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


isildur posted:

Hmmm. That's reasonable. Not necessarily a legendary skill, but I honestly didn't even think about xp accumulation at 10/10/10/10. I'll bring it up to the team and see what we come up with.

Alternately, how about mechwarriors occasionally just retire? A maxed out pilot is getting paid a fortune, surely they'd like to spend it?

I've looked through the event files and I was struck by how most of the really bad stuff like pilots quitting is all when you have low morale. Which thematically makes sense, but also is kinda kicking people when they're already down. I was kinda thinking there's a missed opportunity for events on the other end of the scale -- just because morale is high and the crew is happy doesn't have to make the "bad" events stop. But they'd feel totally different because the bad part is just the cold gameplay and the story you're experiencing is happy.

I'm imagining an event where Glitch comes in and says she's retiring to go start a family, don't worry commander you'll be fine, I know you've got this! How awesome would that be?

Psion
Dec 13, 2002



yes it'd be awesome to lose a 10/10/10/10 pilot due to RNG just deciding that event comes up instead of something in player control like a tactical mistake

(no)

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011

Rolling Thunder: War to the Knife, Knife to the Hilt

Why? , that's why.

Psion posted:

yes it'd be awesome to lose a 10/10/10/10 pilot due to RNG just deciding that event comes up instead of something in player control like a tactical mistake

(no)

Yeah, that would just be frustrating bullshit.

Pattonesque
Jul 14, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule

mercs in the lore seem to fight until they die one way or the other anyway

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Psion posted:

yes it'd be awesome to lose a 10/10/10/10 pilot due to RNG just deciding that event comes up instead of something in player control like a tactical mistake

(no)

I'm sure there's a large contingent of players who would check a "no events" box if it was available.


though lol if you think a 1% dice roll is in your control. I've always been amazed at how people who like military tactics games always profess this idea of player control, as if perfect control was a thing that anyone has ever had in combat.


Pattonesque posted:

mercs in the lore seem to fight until they die one way or the other anyway

fair enough. the wolves were clanners with a ridiculous honor culture, what were the normal mercs' reasons for being successful enough to buy a small planet but never hanging up their spurs?


though speaking of which, does anyone else think the Clans would be a whole lot more awesome if they really were like Mongols, rather than just a surface veneer of Khan thematics over what is actually just Klingons? None of this stupid honor stuff, just Genghis Khan badass motherfuckers. The actual mongols conquered half the world with the same disparity of population as IS vs Clans, and they didn't have no forgotten technology. Just ferocity, political brilliance, and tactical wits that people were still learning from & re-discovering in the 20th century.

Pattonesque
Jul 14, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule

Klyith posted:


fair enough. the wolves were clanners with a ridiculous honor culture, what were the normal mercs' reasons for being successful enough to buy a small planet but never hanging up their spurs?

I'm just thinking of the number of like, 90-year-olds who die in the cockpit and it seems to be v. high all things considered

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

THE CODEX NERDSTARTES DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR NIETZSCHEAN SUPERMEN ARTWORK! SO SAYETH WE ALL! *fart*

Fun Shoe

Klyith posted:

fair enough. the wolves were clanners with a ridiculous honor culture, what were the normal mercs' reasons for being successful enough to buy a small planet but never hanging up their spurs?

If I had a job that let me punch people with giant robots I don't think you could ever get me to retire.

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011

Rolling Thunder: War to the Knife, Knife to the Hilt

Why? , that's why.

Klyith posted:

I'm sure there's a large contingent of players who would check a "no events" box if it was available.


though lol if you think a 1% dice roll is in your control. I've always been amazed at how people who like military tactics games always profess this idea of player control, as if perfect control was a thing that anyone has ever had in combat.

The exact probability is less important than the illusion of control or choice. Getting hosed by a lucky shot in a battle is one thing, but rng suddenly deleting an asset outside of the normal gameplay loop (and this presumes, as is the case here, that being constantly rng-hosed is not an intentional part of said gameplay design as it may be in other games) is just utterly miserable.

Just because having to deal with random merc retirements is realistic doesn't mean it's anything close to what most players actually want to play and that's the most important thing. And besides, if you want that kind of merc company management minutae, with a constant (and fairly regular) threat of mercs cashing out and bailing on your company, there's always mekhq.

And Tyler Too!
Aug 15, 2007
JOCKEY OWNS

Stichelin it is, thank you!


Klyith posted:

I'm imagining an event where Glitch comes in and says she's retiring to go start a family, don't worry commander you'll be fine, I know you've got this! How awesome would that be?

gently caress no

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Xarbala posted:

The exact probability is less important than the illusion of control or choice. Getting hosed by a lucky shot in a battle is one thing, but rng suddenly deleting an asset outside of the normal gameplay loop (and this presumes, as is the case here, that being constantly rng-hosed is not an intentional part of said gameplay design as it may be in other games) is just utterly miserable.

The perspective I'm coming from is that events are part of the game's story. Yeah they're randomized... but many have chains or only happen once, there's a clear authorial intent there to have them be a part of the game's story experience if not the exact campaign narrative. If the story can gift me a fully-functioning lostech Highlander, why would it not be equally valid to take away a pilot?



For people playing a pure tactical merc sim the events are just an unwelcome distraction from the part of the game they enjoy. That's fine, and I really don't see anything wrong with a mod or option to disable events. (Though somehow I doubt they turn down the free Highlander. Maybe Glitch should give the commander a bunch of sweet loot as she's leaving?)


quote:

Just because having to deal with random merc retirements is realistic doesn't mean it's anything close to what most players actually want to play and that's the most important thing. And besides, if you want that kind of merc company management minutae, with a constant (and fairly regular) threat of mercs cashing out and bailing on your company, there's always mekhq.

I've toyed with writing my own events, but there's not much enjoyment from playing out a thing you wrote yourself.

Hremsfeld
Nov 21, 2012

yay


Klyith posted:

If the story can gift me a fully-functioning lostech Highlander, why would it not be equally valid to take away a pilot?

Because you can prevent the game from giving you the Highlander; just don't go to that mission. You would not possibly be able to prevent the game from arbitrarily telling you to just go gently caress yourself. Also, a game arbitrarily telling you to just go gently caress yourself and there being absolutely no way to prevent it is really bad design.

Amechwarrior
Jan 29, 2007



Klyith posted:

The perspective I'm coming from is that events are part of the game's story. Yeah they're randomized... but many have chains or only happen once, there's a clear authorial intent there to have them be a part of the game's story experience if not the exact campaign narrative. If the story can gift me a fully-functioning lostech Highlander, why would it not be equally valid to take away a pilot?



For people playing a pure tactical merc sim the events are just an unwelcome distraction from the part of the game they enjoy. That's fine, and I really don't see anything wrong with a mod or option to disable events. (Though somehow I doubt they turn down the free Highlander. Maybe Glitch should give the commander a bunch of sweet loot as she's leaving?)


I've toyed with writing my own events, but there's not much enjoyment from playing out a thing you wrote yourself.

You could write and release your own pack of events, and have the base set and a "High Risk" add-on bundle for those who want that kind of thing.

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011

Rolling Thunder: War to the Knife, Knife to the Hilt

Why? , that's why.

Klyith posted:

The perspective I'm coming from is that events are part of the game's story. Yeah they're randomized... but many have chains or only happen once, there's a clear authorial intent there to have them be a part of the game's story experience if not the exact campaign narrative. If the story can gift me a fully-functioning lostech Highlander, why would it not be equally valid to take away a pilot?



For people playing a pure tactical merc sim the events are just an unwelcome distraction from the part of the game they enjoy. That's fine, and I really don't see anything wrong with a mod or option to disable events. (Though somehow I doubt they turn down the free Highlander. Maybe Glitch should give the commander a bunch of sweet loot as she's leaving?)

It might be perfectly valid in principle, but game designers figured out a long time ago that human brains don't like to operate on perfectly valid principles. We've got a bunch of idiotic subconscious biases and how a game manipulates player expectations and perceptions is actually really important from a design standpoint. Players love getting things and hate getting things taken away, it's why people love seeing buffs and hate seeing nerfs for their preferred class/tactic in patch notes. Players need to be mentally prepared for loss and failure out of their control. Hell, players need to be mentally prepared for actual, honest probabilities presented to them and not lowball numbers actually operating under an rng tilted in their favor under the hood.

Players might be prepared to lose Glitch to a random headshot because the game builds these expectations in. Suddenly losing a pilot out of combat because a one-in-a-million random event pops up in transit is a harder sell because the game as it is doesn't really support that kind of expectation. On the other hand mekhq actually does support this kind of expectation, and there's even a whole system for managing staff retirement.

You'll note the sheer visceral difference between my reaction to the idea in Battletech compared to my acceptance of it in mekhq, and that was just a natural kneejerk human reaction. I had to actually step back and think about it for a second. This alone ought to illustrate that aspect of managing, and manipulating, player expectations as a part of game design.

Amechwarrior posted:

You could write and release your own pack of events, and have the base set and a "High Risk" add-on bundle for those who want that kind of thing.

That too. There's always an audience for this kind of opt-in increased-difficulty-through-increased-randomness stuff. Hell, entire genres were built on it. But you gotta lay it out there first.

Xarbala fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2018 around 04:13

Psion
Dec 13, 2002



Xarbala's saying it better than I could. However, one point:

Klyith posted:

though lol if you think a 1% dice roll is in your control. I've always been amazed at how people who like military tactics games always profess this idea of player control, as if perfect control was a thing that anyone has ever had in combat.

Dice rolls that lead to headshots are pRNG, but there are a lot of things in the player's control (note that I never said perfect control - let's not put words in my mouth here) you have before the actual shot resolution. What mechs did you take, what positioning did you do, what shots did you fire if any, what happened previously in the fight - all those tactical choices the player makes lead to a situation where rng could or could not remove a pilot from your roster. The two situations are not comparable; you can't just discard that context and pretend it doesn't matter.

Psion fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2018 around 04:21

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

I think I've told this story earlier, but there was a moment early on in my game when the RNG decided that Decker was going to die. Long range, 5 evasion pips, doesn't matter, eats an AC/20 round straight to the cockpit - what are the odds of that?

Except ... he didn't die. Because I made the choice to jump him forwards and Brace instead of jumping forwards and taking an unbraced AC/20 shot. I had a choice as to whether I wanted him to be vulnerable to a headshot or not. After that, I had even more choices - do I leave him in the fight with only one cockpit structure left? Do I have him keep playing aggressively in his pristine-except-for-the-cockpit mech, and hope that no further attacks are going to roll a head hit? Do I play him behind the rest of my mechs so he takes less attacks overall? Do I just eject him right there and have to finish the mission with three, but guarantee that he's not going to die?

You don't have any of that sort of thing if it's just an out-of-combat "event roll says you lose the pilot, gently caress you".

--

Now, if you're talking about event chains where one choice leads to a pilot retiring, but the player can choose to avoid it - those are more interesting. I mean, there are some of those already (where you can choose to take a penalty from a negative event, or fire a particular pilot instead), but they're not very well balanced since you're never going to choose to lose a pilot. It would be interesting if you gave those event choices more of an upside, so people would consider getting rid of a mechwarrior to be worth it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Xarbala posted:

It might be perfectly valid in principle, but game designers figured out a long time ago that human brains don't like to operate on perfectly valid principles. We've got a bunch of idiotic subconscious biases and how a game manipulates player expectations and perceptions is actually really important from a design standpoint. Players love getting things and hate getting things taken away

Yeah. Which is a thing that's a personal bugbear I have about power fantasy from military games in particular. I think about it frequently because I really like these games, and don't know how what the game that I want looks like. I want a game that makes me feel the same way I felt reading David Drake's military scifi series Hammer's Slammers -- that war is both exhilarating and completely hosed -- but I don't know if it's even possible. Even most of the recent post-Dark Souls wave of games that take pride in kicking player's asses are about challenges to master, rather than trials to endure. Dwarf Fortress is just about the only thing I know that takes agency from the player enough to make you feel like you fate is in the hands of these insane dwarves. Xcom2 at launch was a step in that vein and people hated it.

The funny thing is I don't have this reaction at all if a game is in a fantasy setting. Dunno why.

(Highly recommend those books btw. They're even about space mercenaries! this one is free)

Xarbala posted:

You'll note the sheer visceral difference between my reaction to the idea in Battletech compared to my acceptance of it in mekhq, and that was just a natural kneejerk human reaction. I had to actually step back and think about it for a second. That's should illustrate that aspect of managing, and manipulating, player expectations as a part of game design.

It's definitely an acquired taste! Anyways thanks for seriouspostin with me. edit: and also everyone else who responded to my crazy idea even if you hated it!

Klyith fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2018 around 04:44

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Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011

Rolling Thunder: War to the Knife, Knife to the Hilt

Why? , that's why.

Klyith posted:

It's definitely an acquired taste! Anyways thanks for seriouspostin with me. edit: and also everyone else who responded to my crazy idea even if you hated it!

Yeah no prob, it's interesting to think about this stuff from time to time. Also, thanks for the book rec!

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