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twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
So I'm a bit worried I won't be able to progress due to my inability to do anything during a match and my resupply and repair costs are out stripping my income.

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Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler

twistedmentat posted:

So I'm a bit worried I won't be able to progress due to my inability to do anything during a match and my resupply and repair costs are out stripping my income.

So the game is working as intended?

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 19 minutes!

twistedmentat posted:

So I'm a bit worried I won't be able to progress due to my inability to do anything during a match and my resupply and repair costs are out stripping my income.

I fins it helpful to drop down to a lower tier with cheap repair costs for a little while and build back up. Of course, you need to be effective still at those tiers.

Nipponophile
Apr 8, 2009

twistedmentat posted:

So I'm a bit worried I won't be able to progress due to my inability to do anything during a match and my resupply and repair costs are out stripping my income.

Ah, but you see if you just buy our boost packages for real money... In fact, just give us your credit card, you're not using it for anything worthwhile...

Hegel Exercises
Apr 25, 2019

Too fair to worship, too divine to love...

Blistex posted:

So the game is working as intended?

are we getting to the part of the thread where goons defend exploitative game practices? :allears:

e: how many hours do I need to put in for the Stockholm Syndrome of “actually it’s good that this game is actively hostile new players” to kick in? Asking for a friend.

Hegel Exercises fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 13, 2020

ded
Oct 27, 2005

Kooler than Jesus

twistedmentat posted:

So I'm a bit worried I won't be able to progress due to my inability to do anything during a match and my resupply and repair costs are out stripping my income.

The way to play this game is never use poo poo above tier 3 or 4. Anything above BR 4.7 in air or ground is an unfun kick in the balls.

The only way around that is use premium time or have some gold/talismaned things to get cash. Save up a few mil lions and say gently caress it.


Hegel Exercises posted:

jesus christ i cannot for the life of me get the yak-3 to work, i just get out turned by... everything. this is supposed to be a plane that's good? lmao

from the in-game wiki:


literally none of this is true lmao


The yak-3 is not a turning plane unless you are fighting planes you know you can out turn. It's an energy fighter that does really well because it retains energy better than most other planes.

edit : wow i made this vid 5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-kBB_mQGA

ded fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Oct 13, 2020

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013
Looking at it again, I'm pretty sure the bit on the wiki where it says the Yak 3 can "outurn" other planes is a typo for "outrun."



Also yeah this game is pretty unfair to free players. Repair costs are balanced around making you break even on average, but only if you have premium. (For example, the Vautour IIB's new repair cost is slightly more than you can earn from destroying two bases with premium.) Early tiers aren't so bad, especially since some of the most fun vehicles in the game are around tier 3.

Anyone defending gaijin is either naive or feeling guilty about how much time and money they've spent on this game. It's a shame this is the best tank sim in town -- the competition is somehow more predatory.

Hipster Occultist
Aug 16, 2008

He's an ancient, obscure god. You probably haven't heard of him.


punishedkissinger posted:

omg the BT-7 F-32 is incredible. Scouting is INCREDIBLY powerful, especially when you are 20kph faster than 99% of enemies. I've just been rolling out, capping, then scouting 2-3 enemies, j--ing out and rolling in screaming in an IL-2. Flying in with a full bomb/rocket load at 600kph while your wings get shredded is a pretty viscerally satisfying experience. It's a 3.0 but it weirdly seems to do better at higher BRs? I think because closer to 5.0, the tanks generally get heavier and thus slower.

playing a light tank/scout really makes it clear how much better this game would be if it actually encouraged teamwork too.

Its a great little tank, you get that Bt-7 speed with a gun that can really do some work.

Speaking of not going above 4.7, I concur. I actually got up into 7.3 with my Russians, mostly because the guided AT missiles seemed fun. Too bad I suck too much for the sniper rocket tag the game becomes, so its back to t-34s for me.

Having some fun grinding up china tho

Hipster Occultist fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Oct 13, 2020

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Hegel Exercises posted:

are we getting to the part of the thread where goons defend exploitative game practices? :allears:

e: how many hours do I need to put in for the Stockholm Syndrome of “actually it’s good that this game is actively hostile new players” to kick in? Asking for a friend.

The game economy is fine if you actually pay for the game.

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!


Gaijin's revenue model is predatory, but I wouldn't say the game is unplayable without premium, especially when so many people consider tier 3 to be the game's apex. It would be great if the rest of the game was more approachable and there weren't vehicles whose repair costs are poison pills. That said...

Repair cost is 0 if you stay alive so get good nerds. :colbert:

Dr.Radical
Apr 3, 2011
Also you can set it to where you’re not auto-repairing. Someone said it earlier but if you’re having a lovely time i.e you’ve had a good three or four bad games, it’s best to just set it down for the day. The lower tier planes are only a few hours for a free repair.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 19 minutes!
Do the vision skills actually do stuff in RB?

ArchRanger
Mar 19, 2007
I'm tired of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with 'em there.

punishedkissinger posted:

Do the vision skills actually do stuff in RB?

In the air they effect the distance you get a target box with the distance marked. In CARB it'll affect the distance tanks will render, though outside of some edge cases that's not a huge deal since they revamped it.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

YF-23 posted:

Gaijin's revenue model is predatory, but I wouldn't say the game is unplayable without premium, especially when so many people consider tier 3 to be the game's apex. It would be great if the rest of the game was more approachable and there weren't vehicles whose repair costs are poison pills. That said...

Repair cost is 0 if you stay alive so get good nerds. :colbert:

What exactly is predatory about the revenue model? There's no gold ammo. There's no constant pressure to use microtransactions. The only loot boxes are ones that are entirely free. There's vehicles gated behind eagles, but you can get them through the warbond shop if you really want and they tend to be interesting and different (or from another nation) rather than overpowered. You can if you are very good make your way up to the high tiers on a free account, but the economy is balanced to make that hard.

Gaijin are entitled to want you to pay for their game, and for the continual development it gets and the time I spend playing it I'm very happy to drop them money once a year for premium. If you don't want to do that then fine you can play for free, but a company wanting money for their product is not predatory.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013

Never felt at home in reality
Always hiding behind avatars


ArchRanger posted:

In the air they effect the distance you get a target box with the distance marked. In CARB it'll affect the distance tanks will render, though outside of some edge cases that's not a huge deal since they revamped it.

I really hate this and think it's dumb, they should just remove vision skill from tanks and have them always render or if they wanna keep vision skill have the "render" just be a nonspecific tank render in the color of black until identified

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!


Alchenar posted:

What exactly is predatory about the revenue model? There's no gold ammo. There's no constant pressure to use microtransactions. The only loot boxes are ones that are entirely free. There's vehicles gated behind eagles, but you can get them through the warbond shop if you really want and they tend to be interesting and different (or from another nation) rather than overpowered. You can if you are very good make your way up to the high tiers on a free account, but the economy is balanced to make that hard.

Gaijin are entitled to want you to pay for their game, and for the continual development it gets and the time I spend playing it I'm very happy to drop them money once a year for premium. If you don't want to do that then fine you can play for free, but a company wanting money for their product is not predatory.

It's a model that exploits a lot of psychological impulses. For a lot of people the enjoyment doesn't come from simply the core gameplay loop of a typical match, but primarily from unlocking New Stuff. Gaijin's business model leans very heavily on the latter, and as a result core gameplay issues (like 99% of air RB matches devolving into which team kills the other first with no consideration for objectives, for example) get unaddressed in favour of relentlessly expanding the vehicle count, often with little regard for balance.

So the way that is monetised is by making purchases make unlocking these new vehicles easier, and on the flipside by making sure that doing so is difficult without spending money. Things like parts & fpe being unlockable, forcing new vehicles to have to unlock darts to move away from HEATFS on top tier, and giving you an out from that in the form of letting you skip the unlocking process by buying them with premium currency, those things are predatory. It's not paying to get something good, it's paying to avoid something bad.

punishedkissinger posted:

Do the vision skills actually do stuff in RB?

A little bit. I believe to some degree they affect render distance, and if someone is within the smaller ranges and visible but outside your viewpoint you'll get the tiny red arrow at the edge of your screen pointing to them. The latter thing has happened to me exactly once, but I'd completely ignored Keen Vision until that point so I can't say how much of a different it makes if you have a maxed-out crew in it.

Subyng
May 4, 2013

Alchenar posted:

The game economy is fine if you actually pay for the game.

I would drop money on this game if Gaijin actually cared about improving and fixing the game's issues, but right now every decision they make is 100% motivated by how to squeeze every last penny out of its playerbase. Obviously a business has to make money, but Gaijin is aggressively incompetent when it comes to actually making the game fun for its players. As it stands all they're working on is adding more high tier vehicles that I will never unlock and the occasional terribly designed maps.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
Played a match to see how the "economy" has improved, even though none of the research costs I've seen are any different. Go into a Tier 5 match as the Germans.

-Die on the way to the objective as a bomber. Typical.
-Immediately spawn camped by a squad of 3 in a clan


Somehow I'm not surprised that Gaijin still hasn't bothered with invulnerability when you just spawn in to prevent that.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Most of my gripes with the monetization model is with Silver Lions. You wanna sell premium airplanes or unlocks for real money, fine. But why am I SL poor despite paying cash for premium? I’ve already sunk a ton of time and money into your game (including some premiums on top of my premium account,) so why the hell are you actively making it unenjoyable to play?

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 19 minutes!
The battle summary obfuscates SL losses right?

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

punishedkissinger posted:

The battle summary obfuscates SL losses right?

Until you pull up the summary, it's gross and not net, yeah.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Played a match to see how the "economy" has improved, even though none of the research costs I've seen are any different. Go into a Tier 5 match as the Germans.

-Die on the way to the objective as a bomber. Typical.
-Immediately spawn camped by a squad of 3 in a clan


Somehow I'm not surprised that Gaijin still hasn't bothered with invulnerability when you just spawn in to prevent that.

There's spawn protection in the game though. Only lasts like 10 seconds which is barely enough time to kill one spawn camper if they aren't hiding, so it's not exactly useful.

Research costs rarely change, really. The economy is almost entirely repair costs, with ammo cost and vehicle unlock price changing occasionally.

Subyng posted:

I would drop money on this game if Gaijin actually cared about improving and fixing the game's issues, but right now every decision they make is 100% motivated by how to squeeze every last penny out of its playerbase. Obviously a business has to make money, but Gaijin is aggressively incompetent when it comes to actually making the game fun for its players. As it stands all they're working on is adding more high tier vehicles that I will never unlock and the occasional terribly designed maps.

This is my big issue with the game's revenue model too. When -- not if but when -- gaijin collapses, I hope they release the server code (or people reverse engineer it) so we can get community-hosted servers. That would let players have an economy that isn't based around extracting money.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler

Hegel Exercises posted:

are we getting to the part of the thread where goons defend exploitative game practices? :allears:

e: how many hours do I need to put in for the Stockholm Syndrome of “actually it’s good that this game is actively hostile new players” to kick in? Asking for a friend.

Not defending anything, just stating a fact.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Solumin posted:

There's spawn protection in the game though. Only lasts like 10 seconds which is barely enough time to kill one spawn camper if they aren't hiding, so it's not exactly useful.

Research costs rarely change, really. The economy is almost entirely repair costs, with ammo cost and vehicle unlock price changing occasionally.

Planes, not tanks.

And when steam says "Changing the game's economy" I expect more from such a headline.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013
Oh, I misread, sorry. Yeah, the spawncamping in air arcade is extremely annoying and why I gave up on arcade above like ~3.0.
Annoyingly, you get the same problems in RB when playing jets, because the airfield AA isn't strong enough of a deterrent.

And yeah, "economy changes" is gaijin's phrase for "making it harder to earn SL without premium."

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
No worries. Just sucks cause that problem has existed in air arcade since the beta, and it wasn't fun then either.

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!


To be honest I don't think I've ever played air arcade with jets. At some point after playing RB a bunch I just never looked back, and in the rare occasion I do it's with my old, lower tier lineups because I don't care for crewing a bunch of higher tier planes across 5 crews. Even the highest I've played air arcade in, which is tier 4ish, seemed like it was veering a bit too much into tryhard territory which isn't what you want from the game mode that's the most "just sit back and point and click at the enemy" of all.

But yeah, air realistic has similar, though not quite as bad problems. Runway strafing is one thing, but it's even worse if you're not the one on the receiving end and are dealing with someone that just sits on the airfield. Then they can just J out every time you make an approach. So if they don't want to leave the safety of their airfield? There is nothing you can do.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013
I'll do arcade jets for those events where you need to drop 10 tons of bombs. Way easier than doing ~10 RB matches.

Shaman Tank Spec
Dec 26, 2003

*blep*



Some extremely loving advanced joke getters on the Steam forums.



These changes are loving rough though, I just reinstalled but I have to be honest this poo poo's kind of put me off the game entirely.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Der Shovel posted:

Some extremely loving advanced joke getters on the Steam forums.



These changes are loving rough though, I just reinstalled but I have to be honest this poo poo's kind of put me off the game entirely.

Was it Tier 3 of Planes, Tanks, or Boats though?

(The grind is harder for botes)

Subyng
May 4, 2013

Solumin posted:

There's spawn protection in the game though. Only lasts like 10 seconds which is barely enough time to kill one spawn camper if they aren't hiding, so it's not exactly useful.

Research costs rarely change, really. The economy is almost entirely repair costs, with ammo cost and vehicle unlock price changing occasionally.


This is my big issue with the game's revenue model too. When -- not if but when -- gaijin collapses, I hope they release the server code (or people reverse engineer it) so we can get community-hosted servers. That would let players have an economy that isn't based around extracting money.

Nah someone needs to make a War Thunder competitor. Although its risky because generally your average player is too stupid to realize when they've been handed a superior product. Like when Amored Warfare came out, which was an objectively superior WoT clone but failed to steal the WoT playerbase.

appropriatemetaphor
Jan 26, 2006

There's rando tank games but a lot seem to skew modern. Nothing much that's ww2 focused and isn't primarily an fps. One day.

Subyng
May 4, 2013
Making it modern would be a good way to steal the segment of players that wants to play modern tanks in WT but will never get to them because of the grind.

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006

Subyng posted:

Making it modern would be a good way to steal the segment of players that wants to play modern tanks in WT but will never get to them because of the grind.

https://gunnerheatpc.com/

I've been watching this one. Still has a way to go but it looks promising in that it's not too spergy on the control side of things so normal people might enjoy playing it, but skews toward realistic aiming/movement/armor/guns.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013
But I like WW2 tanks. They're weird and fun and different, unlike top tier where every the MBTs are all very similar.

Squad isn't focused on tanks, but I've heard it's pretty good for modern MBTs.

Subyng
May 4, 2013
Post Scriptum is the ww2 version of Squad and the tanking is also decent. Hell Let Loose also has some good tanking!

organburner
Apr 10, 2011

This avatar helped buy Lowtax a new skeleton.

Gonna make a game that's just an arcadey war thunder but you start out with technicals and all the vehicles are fictional.

Still need to sell a tiger pack for the wehraboo dollar though... Just call it "the big cat" instead or something.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013
On the other hand, don't pander to wehreboos, they ruin enough stuff as it is.

organburner
Apr 10, 2011

This avatar helped buy Lowtax a new skeleton.

Solumin posted:

On the other hand, don't pander to wehreboos, they ruin enough stuff as it is.

Yeah, and with the monetisation scheme I had figured out it wouldn't work anyway...

gently caress I might need to re-learn unity and just start working on this at some point, I don't think I'd ever get to a place where it'd take off but it could still be fun to make some small single player thing where you roll around with a hilux mounted with a dushka.

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Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012


https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/500748-planned-battle-rating-changes-october-2020/&ct=1602678909

Once again UK tanks go up in BR, and Germany drops lol.

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