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LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Phrosphor posted:

Is it worth starting to lay the foundations of a colony ship? Or is it cheaper to fill a container ship with cryo bays to keep under the tonnage limits for jumps?

Do we have concerns for jumping that many people together at once? Can we do a test jump with someone in cryo to make sure that there effects aren't magnified sometime soon please.

Colony ships are usually cargo ships with the cargo bays ripped out and replaced by cryo bays, yeah. They're pretty standard designs.

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LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Let's talk missile sizes. Personally, I like the quirky size 2 missile designs we have now, but most people seem to want to see size 3 or size 4 with a few size queens holding out for size 6s. In the fight between size 3 and size 4, I think size 3 is the clear winner. It does almost as much damage and has similar chances to hit. Critically, missile damage is done like this
code:
1 2 3               5  1  2  3  6
  4                    7  4  8
                          9
so you really want to deal damage (WH) of 4 or 9. Size 3 missiles can easily handle 4 and size 4 can't really do 9.

Size 3: WH 4, 82% to hit 5k


Size 4: WH5 92% to hit 5k


quirky size 2s: WH 4, 43% to hit 5k

with half the hit rate and 2/3 the size of the size 3, they're more competitive than I expected, and the smaller size would help us pack more launchers.

Gargantuan size 6s: WH9, 87.1% to hit 5k

with more than twice the damage and even better chances to hit, these heavy weight bruisers are real contenders for the championship. However, keep in mind that they're much vulnerable to PD and AMM fire since every lost missile reduces damage by twice as much as well.

Phrosphor
Feb 25, 2007

Urbanisation


Does anyone even have any PD tech yet?

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

Size 2s having half the hit rate means they'll probably inflict considerably less damage unless large numbers of missiles are being shot down. They're really only practical if we're expecting to face heavy point defense for our missiles where like half of the volleys are being shot down.

Size 4s main advantage is it's easier to fit a sensor suite onto them, making it so the missiles can potentially lock onto new targets if their target (or the ship that launched them) is destroyed.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Phrosphor posted:

Does anyone even have any PD tech yet?

Oh yeah, it's standard in all navies now, it played a big role in the last war. Everyone's got turrets and gauss guns, that's what you need for a PD network.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Saros posted:



The next generation fleet:

Skunkworks file

I am going on holiday until October so in all likelyhood the LP will be on hiatus from tomorrow. To keep everyone busy I am issuing a design request for the next generation of the Martian Fleet.

Both the overall fleet proposal and the individual ship designs need to be discussed and arrived on using the technologies in the save provided (includes Ion drives and allllll sorts of goodies). These advances are derived from general tech advances, data from the Pluto facility and the deconstruction of IC designs. There are a number of requirements I will spell out below.

  • Jump drives will be standardised to 3000T, 4500T and 9900T so build designs for extra-sol conflict around those sizes. Max ship size is 17000T.
  • To save my sanity and minimise the number of different shipyards needed combat designs should not be repeated across sizes. E.g. no missile cruisers and missile destroyers fulfilling essentially the same role. Likewise interchangable components between designs is a plus.
  • Minimum speed will be 4000kps, ideally fleet speed will be higher.
  • Engines should not be boosted more than +20% power except in FAC/Fighter or special cases to save fuel efficiency.
  • As much as possible ships should be able to repair all their components (especially engines).
  • A standard of 12-18 months deployment time and maintenence life as well as 10 billion km range is requested for extra-sol ships though exceptions can be made.

Get building Goons, I can't wait to see what abominations you come up with.

To assist in standardizing engine sizes here is a modification of Saros' skunkworks save.

In addition to the missile sizes discussed above, it also has standardized engine designs based around a fleet speed of 5,500 km/s. The engines are compromises between size, speed, and fuel efficiency.

For 3k size ships I have provided a LR Outsystems Destroyer drive. One of these will hurtle our warships through the stars at 5516 km/s. Size-wise, it leaves exactly half the tonnage for weapons, equipment, and fuel assuming a relatively thin skin of 4 armor layers.

For 4.5k size ships you can use either 2 LR Outsystems Small drives or 1 LR Outsystems Large drive depending on if you prefer fuel efficiency or resilience to battle damage. Size-wise it leaves 1,850 tons (37 HS) for weapons, equipment, and fuel assuming a comfortable skin of 6 armor layers.

For 9.9k size ships you can use either 4 LR Outsystems Small drives or 2 LR Outsystems Large drive depending on if you prefer fuel efficiency or resilience to battle damage. Size-wise it leaves 4,850 tons (97 HS) for weapons, equipment, and fuel assuming a perhaps slightly underamored skin of 6 armor layers.

I hope this is helpful.


Phrosphor posted:

Does anyone even have any PD tech yet?
PD stands for point defense. Like our Sagan class gauss ships.

Phrosphor
Feb 25, 2007

Urbanisation


Crazycryodude posted:

Oh yeah, it's standard in all navies now, it played a big role in the last war. Everyone's got turrets and gauss guns, that's what you need for a PD network.

This is what happens when you try and comment in two different Aurora threads at the same time

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Yeah, this is the one set in 2050 with the socialist Martians, not the one set in 1900 with the genocidal Martians

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

I should wake up at 4AM to watch Australia lose


Crazycryodude posted:

Yeah, this is the one set in 2050 with the socialist Martians, not the one set in 1900 with the genocidal Martians

Now I have to read the other aurora thead thanks

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Gaze upon the wonder that is Victorian Aurora

TheWetFish
Mar 30, 2006

by FactsAreUseless


LLSix posted:

To assist in standardizing engine sizes here is a modification of Saros' skunkworks save.


It's way easier to share the ship or component stats as text than swapping out Stevefire databases, which also loses all their existing designs. The text output from the Create Research Project screen would be plenty for someone to recreate it

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

I should wake up at 4AM to watch Australia lose


What if we put engines on a giant laser for shooting at planet's

Not Alex
Oct 9, 2012

Cut loose before the god eaters show up.


Did we get any of that microwave beam tech? And could it be mounted on a bunch of swarmy fighters? I like the idea of knocking missiles out of the air at their source and rendering stuff unable to shoot and then boarding it. Let us become the terror that was the Hiigaran Salvage Corp.

punched my v-card at camp
Sep 4, 2008

Broken and smokin' where the infrared deer plunge in the digital snake


So what's the deal with facility referring to the whatever tried to get in as "kin"?

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.




punched my v-card at camp posted:

So what's the deal with facility referring to the whatever tried to get in as "kin"?

Well, it straight up told us it was part of an intergalactic society of some kind, and clearly the portal it had us try to open was trying to re-establish contact with what Facility thought was where it's prior compatriots were. Whatever we saw on the other side must have been putting out familiar transmissions (albeit mad and possibly demonic) to what Facility is used to seeing.

xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.



I've got a feeling that the best defense against warp madness is mortality. If you've got a ship that maintains the same intelligence for who knows how many jumps...

Who wants to bet that these predecessors discovered the intersection between artificial intelligence and the psychoactive aspects of jump travel the hard way?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



the best defense against warp madness is to embrace it

Not Alex
Oct 9, 2012

Cut loose before the god eaters show up.


IT IS A GOOD PAIN.

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle


For the Record, I put together a few missile ship designs comparing the merits of Size 2, Size 3 and Size 4 missiles. I personally like the Size 3 design, Size 4 might have more versatility however if we do decide to add some sensors etc. to the missiles. Ostensibly the biggest question becomes what is Terra's PD situation like, if it is fairly minimal size 4's might be better as each missile has some spare space for sensors/armor/ecm etc., if Terra has excellent PD size 2's are probably the best since you can poo poo out more missiles per volley. Size 3's are I think a good middleground it looks like they can pack pretty similar punch to Size 4's, but don't have extra space for fun add-ons.

Each Design has 1.8x the Firepower of the Argyre, 1.5x the Armor, 1.65x the Mag Space, 1000 km/s faster, 2x the missile range, 8 layers of shields, damage control upgrades and more advanced ECCM.

code:
Size 2  class Missile Cruiser    9 900 tons     255 Crew     1576.7 BP      TCS 198  TH 810  EM 600
4090 km/s     Armour 6-41     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 23     PPV 36
Maint Life 1.27 Years     MSP 324    AFR 241%    IFR 3.4%    1YR 210    5YR 3143    Max Repair 202.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 702    

Bryan-Andrews 405 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 405    Fuel Use 95.29%    Signature 405    Exp 13%
Fuel Capacity 600 000 Litres    Range 11.4 billion km   (32 days at full power)
Holmes-Lewis Kinetics Delta R300/360 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2 880 per day)

Metcalfe-Donnelly Size 2 Missile Launcher (18)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 20
Hancock-Howard Missile Fire Control FC110-R80 (1)     Range 110.4m km    Resolution 80

Hancock-Howard Active Search Sensor MR105-R80 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 105.2m km    Resolution 80

ECCM-2 (1)         This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
code:
Size 3 class Missile Cruiser    9 900 tons     255 Crew     1576.7 BP      TCS 198  TH 810  EM 600
4090 km/s     Armour 6-41     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 23     PPV 36
Maint Life 1.26 Years     MSP 324    AFR 241%    IFR 3.4%    1YR 212    5YR 3187    Max Repair 202.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 702    

Bryan-Andrews 405 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 405    Fuel Use 95.29%    Signature 405    Exp 13%
Fuel Capacity 600 000 Litres    Range 11.4 billion km   (32 days at full power)
Holmes-Lewis Kinetics Delta R300/360 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2 880 per day)

Carey-Turnbull Size 3 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 30
Hancock-Howard Missile Fire Control FC110-R80 (1)     Range 110.4m km    Resolution 80

Hancock-Howard Active Search Sensor MR105-R80 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 105.2m km    Resolution 80

ECCM-2 (1)         This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
code:
Size 4 Missile Cruiser class Missile Cruiser    9 900 tons     253 Crew     1573.2 BP      TCS 198  TH 810  EM 600
4090 km/s     Armour 6-41     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 23     PPV 36
Maint Life 1.13 Years     MSP 298    AFR 261%    IFR 3.6%    1YR 236    5YR 3536    Max Repair 202.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 702    

Bryan-Andrews 405 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 405    Fuel Use 95.29%    Signature 405    Exp 13%
Fuel Capacity 600 000 Litres    Range 11.4 billion km   (32 days at full power)
Holmes-Lewis Kinetics Delta R300/360 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2 880 per day)

Holt Heavy Industries Size 4 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 40
Hancock-Howard Missile Fire Control FC110-R80 (1)     Range 110.4m km    Resolution 80

Hancock-Howard Active Search Sensor MR105-R80 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 105.2m km    Resolution 80

ECCM-2 (1)         This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Jack2142 fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2017 around 17:59

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

I still prefer hybrid designs. Not having ships become target dummies when we inevitably run out of missiles seems like a good idea.

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

LLSix posted:

I still prefer hybrid designs. Not having ships become target dummies when we inevitably run out of missiles seems like a good idea.

Yep. In Discord we also had a great idea to give the hybrids one or two additional salvos of short range torpedoes, keeping the launchers relevant in a beam fight.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013



I Present the Dragon Class Torpedo Boat Destroyer, it is to get within 115 km of the target and shoot off it's torpedos

code:
 Dragon class Torpedo Boat    4 500 tons     108 Crew     697.5 BP      TCS 90  TH 360  EM 300
4000 km/s     Armour 4-24     Shields 10-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 20
Maint Life 7.47 Years     MSP 581    AFR 27%    IFR 0.4%    1YR 18    5YR 274    Max Repair 180 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 239    

360 EP Ion Drive (1)    Power 360    Fuel Use 70.98%    Signature 360    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 250 000 Litres    Range 14.1 billion km   (40 days at full power)
Delta R300/360 Shields (4)   Total Fuel Cost  60 Litres per hour  (1 440 per day)

Size 8 Missile Launcher (50% Reduction) (5)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 400
Missile Fire Control FC26-R100 (50%) (1)     Range 26.5m km    Resolution 100
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (30)  Speed: 24 900 km/s   End: 0.6m    Range: 0.8m km   WH: 14    Size: 8    TH: 149/89/44

Active Search Sensor MR26-R80 (50%) (1)     GPS 1680     Range 26.3m km    Resolution 80

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.




How much damage (in practice) do those Size 8 torps do?

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle


Zaodai posted:

How much damage (in practice) do those Size 8 torps do?

Its kinda pointless as Beams fill the same role, but don't run out of ammo.

LLSix posted:

I still prefer hybrid designs. Not having ships become target dummies when we inevitably run out of missiles seems like a good idea.

I personally disagree, and I know the Discord chat isn't unanimous on Hybrids vs Specialist ships. I am throwing out an alternate design.

Jack2142 fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2017 around 21:29

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

Zaodai posted:

How much damage (in practice) do those Size 8 torps do?

14 damage, and they're essentially uninterceptable at 120,000 km or less. However, the reloading time makes those spinal doom lasers look rapid fire :p

Dirt5o8
Nov 6, 2008

Fast & Fuhrious


So at what point do the other weapon techs start to become viable alternatives to missiles? I followed the first lp for a while and I sorta recall the meson-heavy UN getting outgunned by the Russians most of the time. Could be wildly misremembering though.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Yeah, the torpedoes do less damage in the long run than beams, but they do it all at once instead of having to blap it out in little bits every 10 seconds. They're maybe not the thing to build an entire ship around, but they work great for things like hybrid ships so the missile launcher tonnage isn't wasted at beam ranges.

E:

Dirt5o8 posted:

So at what point do the other weapon techs start to become viable alternatives to missiles? I followed the first lp for a while and I sorta recall the meson-heavy UN getting outgunned by the Russians most of the time. Could be wildly misremembering though.
Never. A few tech levels from now is probably when missiles are at their worst compared to AMM's/PD, and then they take off again and by the end of the game you've got missiles going faster than the speed of light loving your poo poo up from the other side of the system. As we saw in the last war, beams still have their place, but missiles are always king. They should be less OP out in the colonies though, because missiles need reloading and beams don't, so we should have the edge in longevity away from bases.

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2017 around 21:41

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.




I was mostly curious what kind of damage they did relative to that penetration test we got for the Giant Spinal Laser of Doom.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009


That torpedo boat looks interesting, but looking at how the Marisa Meyers preformed in combat I'm a bit leary. Front loading your damage like that is great up until it isn't and then you're useless and dead long before you can reload. Its too much to risk for a 4.5kt ship, maybe in a 3kt it would be more interesting.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Zaodai posted:

I was mostly curious what kind of damage they did relative to that penetration test we got for the Giant Spinal Laser of Doom.

Each torp has a solid chance to cause shock damage to the internals even if they don't pen the armor, and while penetration will of course be nowhere near as good as the GSLoD, raw damage is almost double (a salvo of torps will do ~100 damage, the GSLoD does 53). This means that, while again they might not actually get through the armor as well as a laser, they'll totally strip the enemy's armor off at least and make it so the beams following up get to apply all their damage to internals instead of having to dig through armor.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009



I like lasers. Missiles are cool too. This was totally the right post for the right thread. Yes.

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle


Okay right now in the Discord chat there has been a debate raging pretty much since we got the opportunity to design ships, right now I think we can end some discussion by putting two of the biggest issues with partisans on both sides to vote in thread, that weren't covered in the build guides.

1. Should we continue developing Specialized ASM Cruisers such as the Argyre, or should we develop a Hybrid Design that dedicates tonnage to include secondary beam weaponry?

1A. Specialized
1B. Hybrids

2. Should we adopt a Size 3 or a Size 4 as the standard for fleet missiles? Size 3 would allow larger numbers of missiles in mag and per volley, while Size 4 would offer more flexibility in missile design, such as Torpedo's.

2A. Size 3
2B. Size 4

Jack2142 fucked around with this message at Sep 22, 2017 around 22:36

Tactical_Torpedo
Feb 26, 2017

When all else fails?

FIRE EVERYTHING!

Then bravely run away.


Grimey Drawer

For item 1, can we clarify on not ALL ASM Cruiser designs going hybrid if 1B wins? If so, 1B on condition that not all ASM cruisers be Hybrid, just that an arbitrary % in-fleet be Hybrid

As for Item 2, the main factor for me at this point is that we are unsure on what the enemy designs and capabilities will be, since it's likely either Aliens or UT, both of which we've not fought yet. As such, the more flexible S4 are less effective until we can design them in regards to the enemy's observed capabilities.
So, I vote 2A. following the golden rule of design-KISS. S3 Missiles will be plenty effective without needing to tweak them.

EDIT: If were going all or nothing, I'll vote 1B

Tactical_Torpedo fucked around with this message at Sep 22, 2017 around 14:33

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

I'm sure it will surprise no one that I'm in favor of 1B. How much tonnage we want to devote to beams is up in the air, but even having a few beams behind a thousand tons of armor makes for a significant threat (especially with the addition of a salvo of torpedoes). It also avoids possible disasters where a bunch of missile cruisers with empty magazines get bushwhacked by a destroyer or a few fighters while their beam escorts are off fighting the obvious enemy. In the previous war we had hybrid battlecruisers to provide that kind of coverage, but we're looking at cruisers as our largest jump classes so I think we should have at least some hybrids there.

For missile size I'm much more ambivalent. After playing around with possible designs, I favor 2B but only just; size 3 missiles without sensors are extremely capable, and still doable with sensors. S4 makes sensors a no brainer and has more versatility for alternate ammunition types like torpedoes.

Phrosphor
Feb 25, 2007

Urbanisation


Im weighing in with 1B and 2B.

Martian design philosophy needs to be flexible, we are dealing with the unknown and having all the tools for the job available rather than finding ourselves hard countered by something unexpected is vital.

However I feel that ships should still have a designated role and be designed with that primary capability in mind

Laying down a larger missile size now gives us more leeway in the future.

TheWetFish
Mar 30, 2006

by FactsAreUseless


Dirt5o8 posted:

So at what point do the other weapon techs start to become viable alternatives to missiles? I followed the first lp for a while and I sorta recall the meson-heavy UN getting outgunned by the Russians most of the time. Could be wildly misremembering though.

Broadly speaking missiles are always tactically best but their weakness is in the strategic, logistics aspects. Crazycryodude pretty much nailed it.



Zaodai posted:

I was mostly curious what kind of damage they did relative to that penetration test we got for the Giant Spinal Laser of Doom.

There is regular damage & then distinctly there is also shock damage. Missiles & lasers have different armour penetration templates for causing regular damage. Armour thicker than 5 or 6 starts to really hurt missile penetration badly. Our Giant Spinal Laser of Doom is putting holes through 12 layers. Armour thicker than 8 or 9 starts to blunt most reasonable lasers, although at those damage levels we need to talk shock damage. Any sufficiently big single hit additionally has a decent chance of causing shock damage if it is not stopped by shields, which is a big deal because the shock part of the damage will bypass any & all armour no matter how thick.

Giant Spinal Laser of Doom armour penetration (Thanks Nick Esasky!)


The way the current game mechanics shake out means that missiles tend to be viciously small bastards but not a lot of individual damage, whereas lasers just keep scaling up and we're very much at the stage where our bigger lasers should be causing shock damage on a regular basis.

Torpedoes are a different story. Due to quirks in the PD targeting mechanics a missile launched quite close & travelling sufficiently fast could hit the target before PD can engage it at all. (Except CIWS which has it's own mechanics and will catch it but CIWS is otherwise rubbish so who cares). Such missiles are called torpedoes by convention and by bypassing the PD meta they also bypass the size implications so they tend to go big & pack a lot of boom, enough to trigger shock damage
code:
Size 12 Anti-ship [s]Missile[/s] Torpedo
Missile Size: 12 MSP  (0.6 HS)     Warhead: [b]20[/b]    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 25
Speed: 20000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 1 minutes   Range: 1.6m km
Cost Per Missile: 11.6992
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 500%   3k km/s 150%   5k km/s 100%   10k km/s 50%
Materials Required:    5x Tritanium   6.6992x Gallicite   Fuel x25

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013



Zaodai posted:

How much damage (in practice) do those Size 8 torps do?

It looks like this when it hits a ship with 10 layers of Armour and 30 shields


Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle


Tactical_Torpedo posted:

For item 1, can we clarify on not ALL ASM Cruiser designs going hybrid if 1B wins? If so, 1B on condition that not all ASM cruisers be Hybrid, just that an arbitrary % in-fleet be Hybrid

As for Item 2, the main factor for me at this point is that we are unsure on what the enemy designs and capabilities will be, since it's likely either Aliens or UT, both of which we've not fought yet. As such, the more flexible S4 are less effective until we can design them in regards to the enemy's observed capabilities.
So, I vote 2A. following the golden rule of design-KISS. S3 Missiles will be plenty effective without needing to tweak them.


That would add redundancy when we want to reduce it, so my intention is that we are going all or nothing not mixing fleets with hybrid and not hybrid missile cruisers.

For the record I vote,

1A
2B

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000


Do we not have any intelligence on UT fleet doctrine?

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Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







They really like carriers and thick armor. Not much beyond that.

But even that tidbit is enough for us to plan around things like having to survive big fighter missile waves (or intercept the bombers before thye can launch) and whatnot.

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