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TheWetFish
Mar 30, 2006

by FactsAreUseless


habituallyred posted:

C Tell the facility we have great news about humanity agreeing to disagree and show them the Lunar Accords. Make sure they understand the importance of the parts about humanity uniting against alien threats. Recommend that the upcoming broadcast start with a blazing endorsement of the Accords. Make sure to get a picture of the UT diplomat's faces when they realize that they have to choose between being friends with the goose that lays the golden eggs and Atlantis. In the meantime fortify Atlantis and the relevant jump points that we know about.



Dear United Terra friends. We want exclusive access to the entire Ranganui system in perpetuity & explicitly exclusive access to the ruins of the dead alien world. Non-negotiable. In exchange you will be enabled to speak to this live alien friend of ours, at their discretion & pleasure. We are prepared to negotiate on the amount of time we have exclusive system wide control before your communications with the alien commence.

By the by our alien friend mentioned that any hostile action would be, we're having trouble exactly translating that word but the second word is unwise

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GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?


Make everything about Ranganui a joint venture: equal amounts (in terms of tonnage or however we want to quantify "firepower") of military presence, all research and colonization done by companies created by mutual agreement between Mars and Terra, with equal ownership stock, staffing, and colonists, local governance decisions made by a council with equal numbers of Terran and Martian representatives.

unwantedplatypus
Sep 6, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Tell Terra to gently caress off, if they can't keep their side of a treaty they just signed, why should we trust them to honor a new one?

Nothingtoseehere
Nov 11, 2010


unwantedplatypus posted:

Tell Terra to gently caress off, if they can't keep their side of a treaty they just signed, why should we trust them to honor a new one?

This: refuse to renegotiate the treaty, the jump points are owned: the planets behind them are fair game to whoever gets there first: we didn't carve up Sol at first, and we're not going to with other systems as abundant. Besides, planets are big places.

TheWetFish
Mar 30, 2006

by FactsAreUseless


If we don't give United Terra something palatable then we are simply looking at war, which is probably not a good idea for us right now

Unknown if we could or even would be able to stop Facility from talking to everyone. The beauty of doing it this way is that we only need to slow Facility down a little, not stop them completely and we get quite a lot out of it

unwantedplatypus
Sep 6, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

TheWetFish posted:

If we don't give United Terra something palatable then we are simply looking at war, which is probably not a good idea for us right now

Unknown if we could or even would be able to stop Facility from talking to everyone. The beauty of doing it this way is that we only need to slow Facility down a little, not stop them completely and we get quite a lot out of it

Terra will not ignite a war with Martian IPBMs pointing at Earth

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


As far as the Facility is concerned, lead with B, but be willing to go to C. Tell it that we have a deal with Terrans saying that outer Sol is under our purview to convince it.


gently caress the Terrans though. They wanted to keep us from this system with the treaty, now they have to suck it. Maybe let them have (limited) scientific access, but ask for large concession out of it.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







B, explain to Facility that tensions are running pretty high, and revealing its existence is likely to start a massive species-ending war. Ask it to keep quiet until things calm down at the very least, but if it insists on being allowed to speak right now, default to C. We're not gonna be able to contain it with force or anything, but at least ask it to stay quiet for a bit. Maybe offer Dr. L a prominent position on the research team in exchange for her cooperation.


As for what to do about Earth, tell them they can shove it up their asses, our claim of proximity is just as, if not more, valid than their first discovery. And their obvious attempt to screw us out of Rangi via the Lunar Accords wasn't very nice. We'll have to think on this for a while, talk to you in 6 months. Then activate the Exodus Project and drop 5 million colonists on Rangi before Earth can stop us.

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000


UT have to fly through at least one extra solar system to reach Ranganui; if we could keep any potential conflict out of Sol then we'd have a major logistical advantage. When is the jumpgate construction due?

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







6 months, give or take.

The more I think about it, the more that bringing Dr. Lafever onto the team as senior Facility liaison or even team lead (or whatever, point is an actually important senior position) seems like a good idea. She's a drat good scientist by all indications, and is only being marginalized because of politics. Politics, I might add, that aren't even relevant anymore. She's a Titanian with no loyalty to the IC, she can be trusted.

The idea, of course, is that she can use her personal connection with Facility to convince it to keep quiet, but even if she doesn't want to/doesn't succeed I still think she should be on the team because of her unique skills.

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Then you remember. You have a message to send.

Something everyone must know.

You have the power. You have the means.

Let it be known.




Crazycryodude posted:

B, explain to Facility that tensions are running pretty high, and revealing its existence is likely to start a massive species-ending war. Ask it to keep quiet until things calm down at the very least, but if it insists on being allowed to speak right now, default to C. We're not gonna be able to contain it with force or anything, but at least ask it to stay quiet for a bit. Maybe offer Dr. L a prominent position on the research team in exchange for her cooperation.


As for what to do about Earth, tell them they can shove it up their asses, our claim of proximity is just as, if not more, valid than their first discovery. And their obvious attempt to screw us out of Rangi via the Lunar Accords wasn't very nice. We'll have to think on this for a while, talk to you in 6 months. Then activate the Exodus Project and drop 5 million colonists on Rangi before Earth can stop us.

Changing from C to This

Fray
Oct 22, 2010



College Slice

Crazycryodude posted:

B, explain to Facility that tensions are running pretty high, and revealing its existence is likely to start a massive species-ending war. Ask it to keep quiet until things calm down at the very least, but if it insists on being allowed to speak right now, default to C. We're not gonna be able to contain it with force or anything, but at least ask it to stay quiet for a bit. Maybe offer Dr. L a prominent position on the research team in exchange for her cooperation.


As for what to do about Earth, tell them they can shove it up their asses, our claim of proximity is just as, if not more, valid than their first discovery. And their obvious attempt to screw us out of Rangi via the Lunar Accords wasn't very nice. We'll have to think on this for a while, talk to you in 6 months. Then activate the Exodus Project and drop 5 million colonists on Rangi before Earth can stop us.

Crazycryodude posted:

6 months, give or take.

The more I think about it, the more that bringing Dr. Lafever onto the team as senior Facility liaison or even team lead (or whatever, point is an actually important senior position) seems like a good idea. She's a drat good scientist by all indications, and is only being marginalized because of politics. Politics, I might add, that aren't even relevant anymore. She's a Titanian with no loyalty to the IC, she can be trusted.

The idea, of course, is that she can use her personal connection with Facility to convince it to keep quiet, but even if she doesn't want to/doesn't succeed I still think she should be on the team because of her unique skills.
Both of these.

We probably can't keep facility quiet if it's dead set of blabbing to everyone, and we can't stop Earth from talking to facility once they know it exists. But we can ask it nicely to hold off.

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000


I just hope that Facility's important news is that we need this One Weird Trick to do interstellar jumps without being driven irretrievably insane, and we're sitting around going "just give us a week, there's vital politics to be done".

Inglonias
Mar 7, 2013

I WILL PUT THIS FLAG ON FREAKING EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT IS SYMBOLIC AS HELL SOMEHOW

Crazycryodude posted:

As for what to do about Earth, tell them they can shove it up their asses, our claim of proximity is just as, if not more, valid than their first discovery. And their obvious attempt to screw us out of Rangi via the Lunar Accords wasn't very nice. We'll have to think on this for a while, talk to you in 6 months. Then activate the Exodus Project and drop 5 million colonists on Rangi before Earth can stop us.

I'm a little confused as to what the Terrans were going for when they negotiated the Lunar Accords. Was Rangi 5 the planet they thought they were getting exclusive access to when they signed them? Are you telling me they went through two systems total before they revealed that they had jump tech? That means that at least one of their ships (maybe even their first jump capable ship) has made a grand total of at least four jumps in potentially rapid succession, which raises...concerns.

Nevets
Sep 11, 2002

Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell


I've got space bucks on Facility's news being a warning to us to not investigate ancient alien ruins for fear of waking up whatever killed them, setting up a conflict where we tell Earth that our secret alien pal who is totally not a hoax says no touching Pandora's Box, then Earth does it anyway & gets eaten from the inside out by brain worm infiltration & Mars emerges victorious!

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Earth was way too eager to get the Accords signed for them not to have known about Rangi. Or, even more disturbing, they didn't know about Rangi and yet had something just as good in their first system, too.

But yeah, the implications are..... interesting. Earth has probably been jumping all over the place, based on the data from the Commodore (and how hosed up he is).

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009


B for now, C if facility really pushes.

As for the Terrans, tell them to go shove it up Putie's little pucker. If they want war in Sol, well Earth and Mars are both going bye bye but we'll still have the outer colonies. A completely insane way to think of course but from the perspective of a cabal who care only for their own lives and not at all for anyone else's it might hold sway. We would technically "win", and that's all they care about.

If it comes to war in Rangui, then I think our direct access and technological advantages will compensate for Terra's sheer numbers well enough.

P.S. Can I go and be facility's friend yet?

Saros
Dec 29, 2009

Its almost like we're a Bureaucracy, in space!

I set sail for the Planet of Lab Requisitions!!



Nevets posted:

I've got space bucks on Facility's news being a warning to us to not investigate ancient alien ruins for fear of waking up whatever killed them, setting up a conflict where we tell Earth that our secret alien pal who is totally not a hoax says no touching Pandora's Box, then Earth does it anyway & gets eaten from the inside out by brain worm infiltration & Mars emerges victorious!



Crazycryodude posted:

Earth was way too eager to get the Accords signed for them not to have known about Rangi. Or, even more disturbing, they didn't know about Rangi and yet had something just as good in their first system, too.

But yeah, the implications are..... interesting. Earth has probably been jumping all over the place, based on the data from the Commodore (and how hosed up he is).



mossyfisk posted:

I just hope that Facility's important news is that we need this One Weird Trick to do interstellar jumps without being driven irretrievably insane, and we're sitting around going "just give us a week, there's vital politics to be done".

I'll note that nobody's actually told Facility you guys are prancing all over the galaxy already or what you found in Ranginui.

Saros fucked around with this message at Oct 5, 2017 around 12:31

Crazyeyes24
Sep 14, 2014

Your good vision is your fatal weakness!

I kinda just want to go to war with Earth and get it done with. Shootmans is fun.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


Joint custody of the planet with ruins (fifth?) in return for lots of money. /consessions. Stopping earth from that find is not feasible in a PR way and might even lead to a real shooting war.

Other then that I don't really know what to do about crazy murderbot/omnissiah?

Maybe just bring Martian leadership? But it is an opportunity to promote peace and cooperation.

Affi fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 18:59

CoffeeQaddaffi
Mar 20, 2009


1 C
2 Really is conditional on the result of 1


Depending on how they react to a MI on Pluto addressing the system, some ideas on how to react to them are made moot. We really need to see how vote 1 shakes out for decision 2 options to form.

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

Argue from the position of legal originalism; that what matters with the Lunar agreement is the intent of the signers, not the letter, and that means that possession of a jump point also includes possession of the system it leads to.

Also accept that we will never get that. You ask for a billion and settle for a million. Instead our negotiators should aim at getting the following:

A) Mars receives a new jump point to make up for the one that is no longer exclusive, either a third in Sol or an unexplored one in Ragni.
B) Alien ruins belong to all humanity and no government can prevent another government from accessing them (try not to snicker when we suggest this)

Then once they agree we reveal Facility and say he wants to talk.

Crazyeyes24
Sep 14, 2014

Your good vision is your fatal weakness!

Bremen posted:

Argue from the position of legal originalism; that what matters with the Lunar agreement is the intent of the signers, not the letter, and that means that possession of a jump point also includes possession of the system it leads to.

Also accept that we will never get that. You ask for a billion and settle for a million. Instead our negotiators should aim at getting the following:

A) Mars receives a new jump point to make up for the one that is no longer exclusive, either a third in Sol or an unexplored one in Ragni.
B) Alien ruins belong to all humanity and no government can prevent another government from accessing them (try not to snicker when we suggest this)

Then once they agree we reveal Facility and say he wants to talk.

I like this plan.

Fray
Oct 22, 2010



College Slice

We could rather pointedly remind Earth that they can't actually get colonists to Rangi without them and the crews going half-crazy first.

Hessi
Oct 28, 2010


- We should urgently show the Facility pictures of the 5th planet in Rangui and get his oppinion, and tell her about the strange jump problems we encounter.
- On the Facility vote, i am with Cryo, B, if that proves impossible, reluctantly C, but we tell TFS before we tell UT and IC.
- Independent of that, we should test if cryo sleep and/or shielding ships helps to counter the jump problems, if either do, we need to design our newfleet accordingly
- On the earth vote, follow Bremens line of thinking, start the negotiations as 100% Mars ownership because of direct connection, agree to shared ownership for now, but demand compensation for our exclusive jump point system no longer being exclusive at least ( i would start the negotiation with exploring all the remaining jump points in Sol and Rangui together, and then Mars getting first and second pick). Extremely important, Earth has to access Rangui via their own jump route, not through the Martian JP (as we want to build a gate there soon).

Hessi fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 19:26

Grizzwold
Jan 27, 2012

The ocean demands bacon


Saros posted:

I'll note that nobody's actually told Facility you guys are prancing all over the galaxy already or what you found in Ranganui.

We should probably fill Facility in on this poo poo, unless it would lead to them going 'you idiots' and trying to seize control of the solar system for our own good.

Tactical_Torpedo
Feb 26, 2017

When all else fails?

FIRE EVERYTHING!

Then bravely run away.


Grimey Drawer

I vote Plan Cryo, use the unrivaled powers of obstructive beurocracy in our favour. If Put-Put gets frisky tho, we should probably respond in kind, no backing down. +/- fanatics FTW!

On the facility vote, in waiting to hear what it has to say.

cannonfodder43
Jul 15, 2004


These plans that involve getting concessions from Earth before facility is revealed sound good, but we should also be thinking about how this affects earth's internal politics. Earth is known to be in danger of internal division already. We got a reminder recently on their ship when we saw the lavish fittings in it. They spend a lot of resources trying to keep their people happy because they must. I am sure it's helping their base to say that they are ahead on jump tech and securing resources in new systems. To announce publicly that "hey, jumps make you crazy, and by the way, aliens are out there and want to kill us" may throw them into massive turmoil.

Not saying we shouldn't mess with Earth, just that we should plan for possible internal problems on their side, and what their reaction may be to us going public. Will they try to cover it up, claiming facility is a hoax? Try to rally their people by using Mars as a scapegoat? Actually agreeing with Mars and accepting that we are taking the lead in protecting humanity just does not seem likely. What does everyone think?

Nick Esasky
Nov 10, 2009


Facility:

Plan Cryo is acceptable, i suppose.

Terra:

I feel like before we even talk with Terra about anything regarding Ragni in specific we need two points made clear to them:

1) Mars will NOT accept attempts at trying to lock us into Sol in ANY aspect, and the Terrans should drat well know that. Them even thinking thats an acceptable starting position for negotiations is Quite Upsetting.

2) If the Terrans want to start talking poo poo like extrasolar ownership, we should have maps/details of everywhere else they've gone so we know precisely what we're negotiating over.

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Then you remember. You have a message to send.

Something everyone must know.

You have the power. You have the means.

Let it be known.




I would also remind that our votes have impacts. Since we didnt push back on the UT base in Saturn, they just plopped next to Titan. Don't just concede Ragnui!

Fray
Oct 22, 2010



College Slice

Giving up exclusivity over the Rangi point in exchange for some other unknown one doesn't sound like a positive trade, or a good precedent. Play hardball for once! Earth doesn't get to just change agreements the instant it stops favoring them over us.

Fray fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 19:01

Cathode Raymond
Dec 30, 2015

My antenna is telling me that you're probably wrong about this.


Soiled Meat

I don't have any meaningful input on foreign relations yet but I would like to announce that I am renouncing my former religion of Marscetarianism to start the Exalted Church of the Facility, with me as First Saint and Honorable Steward of Facility's Precepts.

The Precepts are as follows:

1). Revere Facility over all lesser facilities. Speaketh never the name of a lesser facility unless in scorn.
2). Deliver unto Facility the many tons of duranium Facility needs.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013



I for one think we should hardball Earth and not let them get away with already breaking their treaty we should have Triton and 3rd fleets go on an "exercise" between Earth and Mars as we renegotiate that Rangi Is our as are all the ruins on the planets or also politely remind them all of our nukes are pointed at Earth's civilian population. Ragni is ours, Ragni is MARS!!! also option B for facility and explain to Facility (can we get a nick name for it) that we can't have him talk to earth for fear of an Extinction level event\war.

Tythas fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 19:03

sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


What if...we made friends with Earth?

Maybe we just need a bigger alien threat to scare us straight, but I wonder how long the two of us will survive in an increasingly hostile relationship given the fact that our home worlds are effectively at point blank range. I suppose we have a bit of a steam release valve given the new jump drives but long term I'm nervous.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013



sniper4625 posted:

What if...we made friends with Earth?

That sounds like the talk of a Traitor. SB, Hang this man!

Another Otter
May 14, 2012


1C We really need to see the larger context before we try to get exclusive rights to a system a) which may be hazardous b) is currently hazardous to travel to.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

habituallyred posted:

C Tell the facility we have great news about humanity agreeing to disagree and show them the Lunar Accords. Make sure they understand the importance of the parts about humanity uniting against alien threats. Recommend that the upcoming broadcast start with a blazing endorsement of the Accords. Make sure to get a picture of the UT diplomat's faces when they realize that they have to choose between being friends with the goose that lays the golden eggs and Atlantis. In the meantime fortify Atlantis and the relevant jump points that we know about.
This version of C sounds potentially amusing. Also, full infodump to Facility. Also, also offer its scientist friend an official position. Facility Liaison and Chief Scientist of Pluto maybe? Something suitably important sounding to help her cut through red tape and keep people from bugging her. Maybe assign some of the marines there as permanent bodyguards for her and facility?

2) Ragni and all worlds in it are ours
The ruins are ours
UT knew about Ragni and tried to screw Mars out of it. It didn't work and now they're crying about outsmarting themselves. Tough.
Negotiate down to allowing UT civilian researchers access to the ruins. Access dependent on good behavior. UT expected to allow similar access to any ruins it finds because 'ruins belong to all humanity' blah blah blah. This means UT must announce any other ruins it has found, subject to meaningful fines that can only be paid with minerals or new tech. Give the new treaty some teeth.
We just negotiated one treaty with these jerks, and here they are trying to overturn it. I don't want to have to do this again.

Remind UT that sole control was their idea and we always thought it was stupid.

LLSix fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 19:34

Nick Esasky
Nov 10, 2009


LLSix posted:

This version of C sounds potentially amusing. Also, full infodump to Facility. Also, also offer its scientist friend an official position. Facility Liaison and Chief Scientist of Pluto maybe? Something suitably important sounding to help her cut through red tape and keep people from bugging her. Maybe assign some of the marines there as permanent bodyguards for her and facility?

2) Ragni and all worlds in it are ours
The ruins are ours
UT knew about Ragni and tried to screw Mars out of it. It didn't work and now they're crying about outsmarting themselves. Tough.
Negotiate down to allowing UT civilian researchers access to the ruins. Access dependent on good behavior. UT expected to allow similar access to any ruins it finds because 'ruins belong to all humanity' blah blah blah. This means UT must announce any other ruins it has found, subject to meaningful fines that can only be paid with minerals or new tech. Give the new teeth some teeth.
We just negotiated one treaty with these jerks, and here they are trying to overturn it. I don't want to have to do this again.

Remind UT that sole control was their idea and we always thought it was stupid.

Proposed addenum: If Terra starts crying about none of their other systems having colony candidates, demand maps of their systems and that we get to verify that crap. Or heck, demand maps as a precondition to anything else.

Also, make it Very VERY clear to them formally/via backchannels that opening with a suggestion that essentially locks us into Sol while they get to do whatever is completely and utterly unacceptable to Mars and have royally pissed us off regarding their suitability as negotiation partners.

Nick Esasky fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2017 around 19:29

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle


LLSix posted:

This version of C sounds potentially amusing. Also, full infodump to Facility. Also, also offer its scientist friend an official position. Facility Liaison and Chief Scientist of Pluto maybe? Something suitably important sounding to help her cut through red tape and keep people from bugging her. Maybe assign some of the marines there as permanent bodyguards for her and facility?

2) Ragni and all worlds in it are ours
The ruins are ours
UT knew about Ragni and tried to screw Mars out of it. It didn't work and now they're crying about outsmarting themselves. Tough.
Negotiate down to allowing UT civilian researchers access to the ruins. Access dependent on good behavior. UT expected to allow similar access to any ruins it finds because 'ruins belong to all humanity' blah blah blah. This means UT must announce any other ruins it has found, subject to meaningful fines that can only be paid with minerals or new tech. Give the new teeth some teeth.
We just negotiated one treaty with these jerks, and here they are trying to overturn it. I don't want to have to do this again.

Remind UT that sole control was their idea and we always thought it was stupid.

I agree

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Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

sniper4625 posted:

What if...we made friends with Earth?

Maybe we just need a bigger alien threat to scare us straight, but I wonder how long the two of us will survive in an increasingly hostile relationship given the fact that our home worlds are effectively at point blank range. I suppose we have a bit of a steam release valve given the new jump drives but long term I'm nervous.

Crazy idea, but... I think the combination of Facility, the fight over these ruins, both sides being frightened by what's going on with jump tech, and our added bit about cooperating against alien threats gives us an interesting opportunity.

We could propose that in light of the proof that we are not alone and that space is dangerous, all exploration be done by fleets mixing both Martian and Terran vessels (maybe even leave the door open to the IC and TFS in the future). Once a system has been explored, then it can be opened to civilian colonization (read: Government landgrabs) based on some sort of draft system (with shared access to ruins) so that everyone gets something.

I make this suggestion mainly based on the feeling that it would be a shame if this LP ends because we trigger MAD days after developing jump tech.

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