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Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?


What little canon information we have is that Earth First wants to end a lot of the UT's imperial projects and focus on fixing Earth instead, yeah. You could interpret that as being eco-fascists who want to be militantly isolationist, or as peaceful anti-imperialist hippies, or anything in between.

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OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

scavy131 posted:

Isolationism doesn't have to really make sense as a political Ideology and usually it doesn't. Who's to say the Earth Firsters aren't like the Pro-Brexit voters who just wanted out of the EU regardless of the penalties or issues that would follow.

They're not isolationists either, they're supremacists, they want everything to be great for them and their country and gently caress everything else.

That's sort of what I'm going for, isolationists would be more like America in the interwar period, very reluctant to get involved in silly European messes again even when it might actually be quite a good idea. Which makes sense when you're not facing imminent resource collapse but Earth kind of is. Or hell, even better, Japan under Sakoku. Very different characterization.

They could be militant luddites or something but I'd be really surprised if that ever took hold in an industrialized globalized polity. But real isolationism for Earth is going to mean abandoning TNE technology, basically, assuming it can't be perfectly recycled which I would imagine in-universe it can't.

I suppose in that sense we really need more information on exactly what Earth First is as a movement, if they are actually luddites then that could potentially be an interesting route for us. An Earth willing to give us its shipyards and heavy industry in return for protection and help fixing the climate and otherwise just being left the hell alone. That would almost be ideal in a way, we get prompt control over the industrial and shipyard output of Earth, neutralize them as a threat, possibly take over their colonies, and they might serve as a positive example for our own policy direction. The big red button keeps them safe from invasion by us too.

I'm skeptical though that any group complaining about the Terran government bringing hell to humanity is going to be OK with Mars doing it instead. So I still suspect they're going to be hostile to us.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jan 6, 2018

Nevets
Sep 11, 2002

Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell
Maybe Mars should offer to be a neutral commodities broker post UT collapse. All UT extra-earth bodies become independent which makes them happy, Earth downsizes it's navy & reallocates money away from resource developement towards public works & welfare, which makes the Tera Firster's happy. Ceres, et. all are still supported by mining TNE's which they will sell on the Martian market, where the UT will buy them. Mars takes a small cut, and spends it on extra solar developement projects & defense. With the UT all but abandoning archeaological efforts after their navy can't project power outside of the solar system, we will be able to gain enough of a tech advantage to make the UT obsolete in 10 or 20 years.

It's a long term plan that relies on 2 things happening: the Crabs don't attack en-masse, and that whoever ends up in charge of Earth is a shortsighted populist. I think one of those things is very likely, the other one is anybody's guess. At this point I'm not sure how much we can do to prepare for a Crab assault in the short term, and I can't see why they'd delay an attack for several years since their current responses have been so immediate.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

An Earth without the ability to project power out of system is an Earth that either abandons TNE technology or becomes dependent on Mars, is the thing. They can't use it in their society without their institutions becoming dependent on it, and thus, on the supplier of it, which would be us.

Either way they either give it up, or give up sovereignty, effectively.

punched my v-card at camp
Sep 4, 2008

Broken and smokin' where the infrared deer plunge in the digital snake
Or they could just be the U.K. after World War II and more or less accept a fading of international primacy in exchange for a livable society.

Especially because once they stop wasting them on empire, they'll have plenty of TNEs to last to a point where we, or their old colonies, have started exploiting extrasolar resources and can sell them excess at a reasonable price.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

I think they key difference there is that the soviet union did not actually control the entire rest of the planet after the second world war, whereas Mars is trying to do that :v: Yes they can buy TNEs, but we will control the market and of course we won't shy away from manipulating it to get what we want out of them. That is an awkward position for a planet that doesn't like us and doesn't want to be beholden to us, which makes me think it is a position that they would only accept forcibly. Or as I said, attempting to achieve autarky by surrendering their TNE tech apart from their nuclear stockpile to gurantee their independence.

An isolationist earth could possibly be contained after a naval defeat but it's really reliant on them being willing to basically give up functional political control to Mars, or accept a very specific kind of future.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jan 6, 2018

silentsnack
Mar 19, 2009

Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current President of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.

Ceebees posted:

Alright, so how about at this point, we offer Zu Putina the devil's bargain? We back her up, keep her relatively reformist regime on Earth, break the back of the generals cabal when they move to crush Ceres, etc... And in exchange, Earth becomes second among equals in the new, slightly less repressive 'emergency government' formed to address the Krab threat. All human colonies will be a part of the new human federality (announce this part as a fait accompli AFTER we're done, so the IC remnants don't backstab us as much), and any colonies will be given a choice of Independence and representation, or continued incorporation (the carrot there being that voting members will have higher expected contribution to the war effort)

I mean, it's AN end game here, which we seem to be otherwise lacking.
Uh yeah, this was kinda part of the plan to begin with. Recall that Saros lumped together several plans. At least one formulation was to inform her before everything went public, but either way it's an "offer' that doesn't have much room for argument.

scavy131 posted:

So here's the crazy idea, and bear with me for this.

We know that Putina's having trouble with the military command, and we'd also like for Ceres to not be their Sword of Damocles in the belt behind us. Putina is also likely to be the most amenable person to work with out of anyone we've seen in the UT (it's a low bar I know).

So let's see if we can get her to help us help her so to speak.

Namely what I refer to as Operation Kornilov. Alternately Operation Lavr's Lament.
At least officially UT has to be upset with losing Ceres, it's a pain in the rear end and they have to station a huge force to hold it, but they can't just give it up. So what we do is Putina will 'order' some hardliner UT fleet element to go suppress Ceres, if they don't and mutiny then Putina can deal with it there, but the military will likely jump at the chance to prove they can do things and to showboat a victory. So the UT elements depart for Ceres and after a day or so Putina makes a big not that she did not order them to depart and they're basically declared traitors/rebels/whatever. This gives us a reason to shoot at them, particularly if asked to by Putina to 'protect the UT citizens of Ceres from these rebels' or some wording. We can clean up part of the UT fleet, Putina gets to crack down on the hardliners and likely removes one of their key figures, Ceres will likely manage Independence, particularly if TFS or someone else recognizes it and starts sending aid, and we may even avoid a full war between Mars and the UT.

Also a UT battlegroup getting mopped up in Sol will definitely be egg on the face of the UT military, which presumably Putina wouldn't mind as it'll keep them off balance and her in power.
Uh yeah, "we're helping you purge your generals because they're dangerous for you and inconvenient for us" and she basically has no choice but to accept help / work together, unless she has some dastardly plan to reverse-coup the military leadership who don't recognize her authority.

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015
I would recommend operation CLOWNFISH where we return a detachment of the fleet to Mars. The cover story is that we are swapping crew in preparation for pursuing the lost Titan Survey Ship. When the detachment arrives we can decide what ships to actually send and which to retain for Solar Supremacy. Edit: 3rd fleet looks like they have the most missiles, but I feel a bit silly sending them right back to Ceres Mars.

The name might be a bit on the nose, with the Boxer Crab joke and all.

habituallyred fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Jan 6, 2018

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
I think that the Dominion plan is dumb, but sheesh people we don't abandon plans at the first sign of trouble. :colbert:

Not Alex
Oct 9, 2012

Cut loose before the god eaters show up.

OwlFancier posted:

An Earth without the ability to project power out of system is an Earth that either abandons TNE technology or becomes dependent on Mars, is the thing. They can't use it in their society without their institutions becoming dependent on it, and thus, on the supplier of it, which would be us.

Either way they either give it up, or give up sovereignty, effectively.

Isolationism is an irrational belief. Why would they rationally consider a century into the future? It's a kneejerk reaction to scary space stuff.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Yeah but there's a difference between not wanting to get involved in international squabbles and literally locking yourself in your house until you starve to death.

At the least, the latter presents a threat because once people figure that out they're going to start getting extremely expansionist again.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Xarn posted:

I think that the Dominion plan is dumb, but sheesh people we don't abandon plans at the first sign of trouble. :colbert:

Who is trying to abandon the "plan"?

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
OwlFancier?

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle

Pharnakes posted:

OwlFancier?

Also all the other posters saying the plan failed already.

Not Alex
Oct 9, 2012

Cut loose before the god eaters show up.

OwlFancier posted:

Yeah but there's a difference between not wanting to get involved in international squabbles and literally locking yourself in your house until you starve to death.

At the least, the latter presents a threat because once people figure that out they're going to start getting extremely expansionist again.

I agree. The pendulum would almost certainly swing back. But by that time we should be teched up, battle tested against the krabs and in multiple systems, somewhat negating MAD.

Nevets
Sep 11, 2002

Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell
Plus we offer free relocation off Earth for anyone that wants it. That will greatly prolong the time isolationist sentiment rules Earth politics as most people who do realize it's an unsustainable policy will take the much easier choice and leave rather than stay and fight for their ideals. We will gradually drain off the motivated intelligent population and Earth will become a planet of complacent layabouts and entrenched bureaucrats. In a generation they won't even be able to feed themselves without Martian aid, much less pose a military threat.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Pharnakes posted:

OwlFancier?

I did specifically say that I don't think you can abandon it not least because you already did a bunch of the damage, I'm just grumpy and trying to figure out ways to deal with its side effects/an end state that isn't absolutely shite for everybody because at this rate the most likely outcome I think is that Mars ends up in the same position Terra was in, with a lovely authoritarian government trying to keep a lid on its populace now spread across two worlds and engaged in a war with aliens after depleting its military fighting other humans.

I would strongly prefer we not waste ships or Terra's ships in a war and I also want to find a solution to the political shittery that's going on on both our planets. If Earth First can take Earth voluntarily out of the interstellar field while preserving as much of Terra's materiel for our use, that would be preferable.

Going forward I find the prospect of starting an open war with Terra to be wholly unacceptable because we cannot spare the losses on either side and the nature of missile combat means we will take losses because we can both expend most of our firepower before anybody actually takes a hit from it, and I also find any political solution that does not have a democratic backing among the people it affects to be unacceptable because that is going to be a serious liability for us in the future.

If you can't manage to do both of those things then you need to abandon this terrible loving plan because it has clearly failed and despite its protestations has only managed to engulf us in war and worsen our political situation.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jan 6, 2018

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Jack2142 posted:

Also all the other posters saying the plan failed already.

Clearly, the plan can't fail, it can only be failed.

Grizzwold
Jan 27, 2012

Posters off the pork bow!
The plan can't fail because nobody can agree on what failure is.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

I would suggest that if the stated goal is some kind of peaceful federal unification of the solar system with mars in charge, then war and the politics of the new society being authoritarian are both failure states.

Dr. Snark
Oct 15, 2012

I'M SORRY, OK!? I admit I've made some mistakes, and Jones has clearly paid for them.
...
But ma'am! Jones' only crime was looking at the wrong files!
...
I beg of you, don't ship away Jones, he has a wife and kids!

-United Nations Intelligence Service

Grizzwold posted:

The plan can't fail because nobody can agree on what failure is.

Relevant 8-bit Theater quote:

Red Mage posted:

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the plan - either way this fits. :v:

Dance Officer
May 4, 2017

It would be awesome if we could dance!

LLSix posted:

Clearly, the plan can't fail, it can only be failed.

Not an emptyquote

Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

It's not that the plan is a failure in execution. It's that it was a failure from the get go!

punched my v-card at camp
Sep 4, 2008

Broken and smokin' where the infrared deer plunge in the digital snake
I'm baffled everyone who sees the UT teetering at the edge of irrelevance and wants to give them a hand instead of a push.

We need to unilaterally recognize Ceres and demand Terra acknowledge their independence. If they refuse and bombard the planet, we'll send footage of the aftermath, plus an honest account of who exactly saved Nova Sol, to all their extra solar colonies and inform them that we'll be handling their protection from here on out.

Yes, we've been destabilized. But Terra is an inch from falling apart and offering them an olive branch before we break them is cowardly to the point of treason.

POOL IS CLOSED
Jul 14, 2011

I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.
Pillbug

punched my v-card at camp posted:

I'm baffled everyone who sees the UT teetering at the edge of irrelevance and wants to give them a hand instead of a push.

We need to unilaterally recognize Ceres and demand Terra acknowledge their independence. If they refuse and bombard the planet, we'll send footage of the aftermath, plus an honest account of who exactly saved Nova Sol, to all their extra solar colonies and inform them that we'll be handling their protection from here on out.

Yes, we've been destabilized. But Terra is an inch from falling apart and offering them an olive branch before we break them is cowardly to the point of treason.

Hell yeah. Free Ceres!

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









punched my v-card at camp posted:

I'm baffled everyone who sees the UT teetering at the edge of irrelevance and wants to give them a hand instead of a push.

We need to unilaterally recognize Ceres and demand Terra acknowledge their independence. If they refuse and bombard the planet, we'll send footage of the aftermath, plus an honest account of who exactly saved Nova Sol, to all their extra solar colonies and inform them that we'll be handling their protection from here on out.

Yes, we've been destabilized. But Terra is an inch from falling apart and offering them an olive branch before we break them is cowardly to the point of treason.

Yeah, it's a risky plan with significant potential upsides and downsides but if we don't act decisively to capitalise on the chaos we won't get any of the benefits.

The one thing we shouldn't do is wring our hands on the sidelines. Let's try to realpolitik Ceres away from Terra, using trickery and the TFS as martian catspaws.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
I think that's what is annoying me so much about the naysayers. For better or for worse we've done this guys, there is nothing to gain by hand wringing and trying to make friends with Putina.

We need to be decisive and capitalise where we can or your prophecies of this plan having only downsides will be self fulfilling.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?


Well, if Junior really is a democratic reformer, keeping her in power might not be the worst outcome. But when I say "in power" I mean ruling a polity that stops at the Karman Line, not helping her hold the entire empire together.

Gunshow Poophole
Sep 14, 2008

OMBUDSMAN
POSTERS LOCAL 42069




Clapping Larry
I'm a delurk to say that I'm reading this thread from the beginning off and on and it's truly enjoyable, doubly so considering the potentially dry nature of the source game. mad props to the OP and various participant goons. Stuff like this is why I log in :)

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

punched my v-card at camp posted:

I'm baffled everyone who sees the UT teetering at the edge of irrelevance and wants to give them a hand instead of a push.

We need to unilaterally recognize Ceres and demand Terra acknowledge their independence. If they refuse and bombard the planet, we'll send footage of the aftermath, plus an honest account of who exactly saved Nova Sol, to all their extra solar colonies and inform them that we'll be handling their protection from here on out.

Yes, we've been destabilized. But Terra is an inch from falling apart and offering them an olive branch before we break them is cowardly to the point of treason.

Terra isn't an inch from falling apart, it still has a military that is perfectly capable of doing damage to us that we can ill afford and I highly doubt they're going to stand down because of a bit of propaganda. That you have detached the military from the civilian government does nothing to lessen that.

In fact if anything I would suggest that precisely because you've effectively collapsed the civilian government it's going to make negotiating with Terra extremely difficult because the military is likely forming its own faction and looking to assert control over the planet, and it is unlikely to shy away from a confrontation with Mars.

Stuff it let's try this:

Suggestion:

Have special branch get as much information as we can about Earth First, whether they have any significant sub-factions or whether their overall cause is compatible with a genuinely isolationist and possibly techno-regressivist Terra. If they are, or if they can be pushed in that direction, try to figure out what we can do to get them in control. The military at this point likely represents the old guard authoritarians who want a return to Putin-esque control and expansionism. We need a way to deal with them and we must assume they are going to be acting separately from any political entity on Earth itself. We need information on what, if anything, we can do to destabilize their command structure while doing as little damage as possible to the actual fleet itself, and minimizing the chances of a full scale war. If it means we perhaps do a bit of work with the TFS to launch attacks on key targets, perhaps they may be amenable to that. I don't know what their position on this whole mess is, frankly I doubt they're super happy about the poo poo we're doing either.

Once we have more information perhaps we can work out a way to proceed that doesn't involve fighting the terran military or destroying their shipbuilding capability which I very much wish to leave operational regardless of who controls it, we need ships to fight a more important war than this.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jan 7, 2018

Jimmy4400nav
Apr 1, 2011

Ambassador to Moonlandia
So I tired to come up with a sumbol for the Mars Firsters, and I got a couple ideas.






The tops one could symbolize Mars breaking the two way pull of Terra-Mars leaving Mars its self and strong (Thank you Crazycryodude for that interpenetration) . The later forms the traditional symbol of Mars.

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

You left out a hammer.

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

Jimmy4400nav posted:

So I tired to come up with a sumbol for the Mars Firsters, and I got a couple ideas.






The tops one could symbolize Mars breaking the two way pull of Terra-Mars leaving Mars its self and strong (Thank you Crazycryodude for that interpenetration) . The later forms the traditional symbol of Mars.

No ring

Friend Commuter
Nov 3, 2009
SO CLEVER I WANT TO FUCK MY OWN BRAIN.
Smellrose
That's not Goatse at all, come on.

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

more like mars fisters right riiiight

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

Jimmy4400nav posted:

So I tired to come up with a sumbol for the Mars Firsters, and I got a couple ideas.






The tops one could symbolize Mars breaking the two way pull of Terra-Mars leaving Mars its self and strong (Thank you Crazycryodude for that interpenetration) . The later forms the traditional symbol of Mars.

The top one to me kind of clearly suggests expansionism to me, anyway. Which I thought Mars First was explicitly against.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA
Its mars first not moss fist

Aethernet
Jan 28, 2009

This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!

Grimey Drawer
Having now caught up on the thread, I am really enjoying the fallout of a plan to restore Martian glory and establish a new empire. Space Brexit is go!
Have you checked whether the FartKrabs influenced any votes in this thread through SpaceBook advertising?

Nevets
Sep 11, 2002

Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell
No, but I think it's safe to say everyone here met with someone of Terran descent before the vote.

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HereticMIND
Nov 4, 2012

Nevets posted:

No, but I think it's safe to say everyone here met with someone of Terran descent before the vote.

Which, when you get right down to it, includes basically every human currently alive (both in game and out).

Everyone has a bit of Terran in them. So basically everyone met with everyone else before the vote, is what you’re saying.

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