|
univbee posted:That's not a different approach, it's just explained differently. Can you explain what you mean? Microsoft's method doesn't require the processor dropping down clock speed or disabling CUs to ensure compatibility on troublesome games.
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:44 |
|
|
Zerot posted:Here's what they're saying about their backward compatibility program. This is taken from yesterday's Xbox Wire post at https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/05/28/xbox-series-x-next-generation-backward-compatibility/ with my added emphasis. theyre both saying games will run at higher res and frame rates than they did on ps4 and xbone. honestly that quote is extremely strange. if a game has compatibility issues running at higher resolutions or frame rates, which is very possible for a small number of games where things like game logic are tied to frame rates, then to get them working they will, by requirement, have to limit those games to how they performed on base xbone hardware. at that point the gpu and cpu will be downclocking because running it at full pelt when youre using nowhere near all of the resources available is asinine. Zerot posted:From what we know about PlayStation 5 backward compatibility, there are multiple states that the processor can run in. Two of those being a PlayStation 4 mode and a PlayStation 4 Pro mode, and a third being a full-fat boost mode. Their messaging isn't very clear right now about specifics, but that implies a very different approach than Microsoft's. both platforms are saying that backwards compatible games will take advantage of the increased power of the new consoles to run at higher resolutions and frame rates whereever possible, but there will inevitably be some games where due to weird technical issues they have to run as they were originally. that quote itself says that all compatible titles will run at max fps as defined by the original game, with most also getting a boost beyond that with regards to resolution and frame rate, but that does also imply the small proportion of titles where the most you can do is cap out the original frame rate and avoid dynamic resolution downscaling, but cannot push it higher. in those cases there is no sense in the cpu and gpu running full clock, that is an extreme waste of energy and i think microsoft has mispoken, as those statements do not make sense together.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:39
|
|
|
Zerot posted:Can you explain what you mean? Microsoft's method doesn't require the processor dropping down clock speed or disabling CUs to ensure compatibility on troublesome games. it will, or you remove those games as compatible. its unlikely they do the latter. Red Warrior posted:It is different. sony has also said games will run at higher resolutions where possible
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:39
|
|
|
Stux posted:sony has also said games will run at higher resolutions where possible They've just talked about games with dynamic scalers, they're not going to run any higher than they did previously in ideal situations. There's a ton of games from earlier in the generation that have hard 1080p caps that are never going to run any higher, MS's approach is for many of those games they can force them to instead run with a 4k max resolution cap.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:45
|
|
|
Red Warrior posted:Sony's approach is basically that their fastest mode for non-patched PS4 games is like running a PC game on a faster PC with the same settings. The game may smoother run up to the same framerate cap it had before, it may run more often up to the same max resolution it had before if it had a dynamic scaler, but that's it. Nope. "We're expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions." https://blog.playstation.com/2020/03/18/unveiling-new-details-of-playstation-5-hardware-technical-specs/ While a lot of information is still to-be-announced on both platforms, the current information both has them on essentially equal footing wrt backwards compatibility. That will almost certainly change, but we don't know in what direction yet.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:47
|
|
|
Given how much they've changed their wording on how BC will work multiple times now, I don't think anyone can say what PS5 BC will actually be like until the console launches because Sony can't get anything straight about it and their current CEO of Interactive Entertainment hates BC. Why Sony appointed Jim Ryan of all people is a mystery but thus far they haven't seemed very confident moving forward.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:47
|
|
|
I mean that's typical for any console that's still not finished. Microsoft said the Xbox One was going to be a 1080p monster at launch and even had falsified game performance on a talk show. Sony said the PS3 would have two HDMI outputs and drive two 1080p displays. Microsoft blinked on the DRM and Kinect requirement (though not the pack-in) but were otherwise fully confident about everything else with the Xbox One and it wasn't until days before launch that it was revealed what an absolute trash fire it was.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:52
|
|
|
univbee posted:Nope. That is referring to again dynamic scalers. Games that were technically capable of running at say 1080p but didn't because most of the time the render budget can only keep up with rendering at 720p etc. There's no indication of them doing anymore than saying the 'boost mode' of the PS5 makes it more likely many of those games will run somewhat better, just like boost mode on the PS4 Pro did. They aren't going to magically run at 4k 60fps when they previously had a hard max cap of 1080p 30fps. And that's to say nothing of injecting HDR and all the rest that MS do with their technology. If Sony are doing that, they need to say it, but everything they have said so far indicates they are following their PS4 Pro approach of doing nothing 'special'.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:55
|
|
|
Red Warrior posted:That is referring to again dynamic scalers. OK now you're just trolling. You're literally saying XB1 games were also hard-coded to only run at 720p30 but Xbox can bend these "hard" rules because of secret sauce and Sony can't because reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:57
|
|
|
SUNKOS posted:Given how much they've changed their wording on how BC will work multiple times now, I don't think anyone can say what PS5 BC will actually be like until the console launches because Sony can't get anything straight about it and their current CEO of Interactive Entertainment hates BC. Why Sony appointed Jim Ryan of all people is a mystery but thus far they haven't seemed very confident moving forward. they originally said they had tested the top 100 games. people took that as "the top 100 games will work and nothing else" at which point they said "no, we're testing everything and nearly all of the 4000 ps4 titles will work, most with higher resolutions and frame rates" its never changed Red Warrior posted:They've just talked about games with dynamic scalers, they're not going to run any higher than they did previously in ideal situations. There's a ton of games from earlier in the generation that have hard 1080p caps that are never going to run any higher, MS's approach is for many of those games they can force them to instead run with a 4k max resolution cap. even outside of edge cases of games that dont like having their frame rate cap lifted, if i load up a physical copy of cuphead for xbox one on a series x how is a game like that going to run at higher resolutions and with a boosted frame rate? is the series x going to be running at full tilt max clock speed to render it? obviously not.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 14:58
|
|
|
univbee posted:OK now you're just trolling. You're literally saying XB1 games were also hard-coded to only run at 720p30 but Xbox can bend these "hard" rules because of secret sauce and Sony can't because reasons. Yes. It's literally what they do with backcompat for 360 and original Xbox titles.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
univbee posted:I mean that's typical for any console that's still not finished. Microsoft said the Xbox One was going to be a 1080p monster at launch and even had falsified game performance on a talk show. Sony said the PS3 would have two HDMI outputs and drive two 1080p displays. Microsoft blinked on the DRM and Kinect requirement (though not the pack-in) but were otherwise fully confident about everything else with the Xbox One and it wasn't until days before launch that it was revealed what an absolute trash fire it was. Little weird how hush things are for this gen in comparison when you think about it. Usually we'd know pretty much everything by now, full specs, launch lineups with gameplay footage galore, system features and OS capability. COVID's obviously played a part but still, it's bizarre. It's almost like Microsoft and Sony are dragging things out to force the other to show their hand first. It's a weird situation. Stux posted:even outside of edge cases of games that dont like having their frame rate cap lifted, if i load up a physical copy of cuphead for xbox one on a series x how is a game like that going to run at higher resolutions and with a boosted frame rate? is the series x going to be running at full tilt max clock speed to render it? obviously not. Still haven't played that game but given how gorgeous the art style is I imagine it would look stunning in 4k at 120fps. SUNKOS fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:02
|
|
|
Red Warrior posted:Yes. It's literally what they do with backcompat for 360 and original Xbox titles. higher resolutions is not referring to dynamic scalers and microsoft doesnt have some secret code to let games run at higher resolutions and frame rates SUNKOS posted:Still haven't played that game but given how gorgeous the art style is I imagine it would look stunning in 4k at 120fps. you cant run it at a higher frame rate, its hand animated.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
Red Warrior posted:Yes. It's literally what they do with backcompat for 360 and original Xbox titles. And it's what Sony does with PS2 games on PS4. They even injected trophies into these games which weren't designed for them! The XB1->XB1X didn't boost games without an X patch except in minor ways, sames as PS4 games on PS4 Pro. Xbox is saying they will boost XB1 games to support HDR/higher res. Sony has stated at least the higher res part, haven't mentioned HDR yet.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
the hdr and stuff that isnt just a res or fps bump is the interesting and cool part of what ms is saying theyll do tbh, thats really good
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:07
|
|
|
Stux posted:even outside of edge cases of games that dont like having their frame rate cap lifted, if i load up a physical copy of cuphead for xbox one on a series x how is a game like that going to run at higher resolutions and with a boosted frame rate? is the series x going to be running at full tilt max clock speed to render it? obviously not. Cuphead? No obviously not, that's like going to be one of the worst examples. We're talking about earlier gen 3D stuff for the most that had low targets for max resolution like 720p and ran at max 30fps, no HDR and low quality filtering and SOME of those, just like the back compat for 360 and original Xbox titles, where they are not an edge case that it just breaks or has other bad effects, will for instance now run at 4k 60 fps with HDR.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:07
|
|
|
Stux posted:you cant run it at a higher frame rate, its hand animated. Everything can be forced to run at a higher frame rate. TVs had that technology to smooth things out which was freaky and looked weird as hell but that was a long time ago. If they have something similar that's more advanced and builds off existing tech in a more refined manner it's definitely doable. Could still look like trash, though.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:08
|
|
|
Red Warrior posted:Cuphead? No obviously not, that's like going to be one of the worst examples. We're talking about earlier gen 3D stuff for the most that had low targets for max resolution like 720p and ran at max 30fps, no HDR and low quality filtering and SOME of those, just like the back compat for 360 and original Xbox titles, where they are not an edge case that it just breaks or has other bad effects, will for instance now run at 4k 60 fps with HDR. right, but what im saying is that some games, either because the processing load is naturally low and not really going to go up, or because the game has to stick to its frame rate cap, are not going to be pushing the series x at full clocks. it will be downclocked because all cpus and gpus dynamically adjust their clockspeed based on the load, or because its one of maybe 10 or 20 games that for some reason just dont get on with the new hardware running faster, so its a weird thing for them to say. SUNKOS posted:Everything can be forced to run at a higher frame rate. TVs had that technology to smooth things out which was freaky and looked weird as hell but that was a long time ago. If they have something similar that's more advanced and builds off existing tech in a more refined manner it's definitely doable. Could still look like trash, though. i mean you can force it, but you could also force it on a base xbox one, theres nothing restricting a game like cuphead from running at whatever frame rate you want. the game itself already runs 60fps internally despite the animation being at 24fps. theyre not going to go and ruin it with animation smoothing to make it actually look like its 60 or 120 fps.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
SUNKOS posted:Everything can be forced to run at a higher frame rate. TVs had that technology to smooth things out which was freaky and looked weird as hell but that was a long time ago. If they have something similar that's more advanced and builds off existing tech in a more refined manner it's definitely doable. Could still look like trash, though. You actually specifically can't do that for a hand-animated game because you can't even start the interpolating processing until the two edge frames are rendered. It is literally impossible to do this without introducing lag, which is significant in the case of hand-animated stuff because its animation isn't at a high framerate. I don't even think you could do it convincingly for something like the newer Guilty Gear games (3D animated internally but with strategic filters and intentionally-stuttery animation to mimic a hand-drawn effect) for the same reasons. A true 3D-rendered game you could do if it doesn't break the game's internal logic, sure. Makes for an interesting case in that Dark Souls 1 360 version would stay 30fps locked (that game infamously has weird poo poo happen with collision detection on PC when you hacked it and forced the framerate past it) while Dark Souls 1 Remastered would potentially be more flexible. Dark Souls II actually also had an infamous bug on the PC version (which wasn't fixed until the PS4 port where the devs actually cared) where running the game at >30fps decreased the durability of your gear. Titanfall 1 on PC actually let you fire your gun faster if your framerate was higher. The best-equipped games to deal with these issues will be the ones with PC versions that play nice with >60fps and stuff like GSync and Freesync, but then again that code won't necessarily be present in the XB1 version. At the end of the day there is some weird poo poo that has to be done internally in a lot of titles to the point where the original game developer will probably have to intervene specifically to fix it because they're the only ones with the source code. How much a dev will care will vary greatly, I wouldn't hold my breath on any Dark Souls fixes for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Hell, a ton of games never got an XB1X patch, but did get a PS4 Pro patch. univbee fucked around with this message at 15:23 on May 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:19
|
|
|
Stux posted:right, but what im saying is that some games, either because the processing load is naturally low and not really going to go up, or because the game has to stick to its frame rate cap, are not going to be pushing the series x at full clocks. it will be downclocked because all cpus and gpus dynamically adjust their clockspeed based on the load, or because its one of maybe 10 or 20 games that for some reason just dont get on with the new hardware running faster, so its a weird thing for them to say. Yes agreed, and I think there's an implicit 'available' in that 'running with the full power' quote. For games that don't have these shims because they aren't particularly popular, or it would be too hard to implement, or it would just break the game, they'll just run at up to whatever maximums were originally designed to.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:22
|
|
|
Stux posted:right, but what im saying is that some games, either because the processing load is naturally low and not really going to go up, or because the game has to stick to its frame rate cap, are not going to be pushing the series x at full clocks. it will be downclocked because all cpus and gpus dynamically adjust their clockspeed based on the load, or because its one of maybe 10 or 20 games that for some reason just dont get on with the new hardware running faster, so its a weird thing for them to say. Microsoft is specifically saying that the Series X does not downclock. From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs: quote:Microsoft is promising a 4x improvement in both single-core and overall throughput over Xbox One X - and CPU speeds are impressive, with a peak 3.8GHz frequency. This is when SMT - or hyper-threading - is disabled. Curiously, developers can choose to run with eight physical cores at the higher clock, or all cores and threads can be enabled with a lower 3.6GHz frequency. Those frequencies are completely locked and won't adjust according to load or thermal conditions - a point Microsoft emphasised several times during our visit.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:22
|
|
|
univbee posted:You actually specifically can't do that for a hand-animated game because you can't even start the interpolating processing until the two edge frames are rendered. It is literally impossible to do this without introducing lag, which is significant in the case of hand-animated stuff because its animation isn't at a high framerate. I don't even think you could do it convincingly for something like the newer Guilty Gear games (3D animated internally but with strategic filters and intentionally-stuttery animation to mimic a hand-drawn effect) for the same reasons. One of the first things any game developer learns is to not tie game logic to framerate exactly because of that. How it still happens at major studios is beyond me 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:24
|
|
|
Zerot posted:Microsoft is specifically saying that the Series X does not downclock. From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs: So it's a power guzzler that'll wear itself out faster?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:24
|
|
|
SUNKOS posted:One of the first things any game developer learns is to not tie game logic to framerate exactly because of that. How it still happens at major studios is beyond me Sometimes it's 3am and this animation routine needs to get implemented so the 80 animators in the building have something to do tomorrow and no-one's going to do anything like release faster hardware for these consoles right, so....
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:30
|
|
|
SUNKOS posted:One of the first things any game developer learns is to not tie game logic to framerate exactly because of that. How it still happens at major studios is beyond me We can't even get people running SQL servers to sanitize their inputs which is trivially easy. Game devs are going to game dev, that's the universal rule, and that's going to translate to more issues than you'd expect because a huge number of console builds are barely-working duct-taped monstrosities that will break in spectacular fashion if you so much as breathe within 6 feet of the console's USB ports (and as RW stated, you're not paid to keep your game stable for some theoretical more powerful future console, only to work on the existing one). To be clear I think it'll be possible to get these games to WORK on the XBSX, but probably in the same way they work on a 1X without any extra boosts. Interestingly, Xbox 360 titles as a rule, especially early on, tended to be a little more forgiving with this relative to PS3 games, which is part of why running games at altered framerates was more feasible for them than doing the same with PS3->PS4 where what each core did had to be programmed manually. But that has its limits particularly in terms of framerate for the reasons I alluded to earlier.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:31
|
|
|
Zerot posted:Microsoft is specifically saying that the Series X does not downclock. From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs: thats... completely bizarre. why would you do this. what possible reasoning is there behind this? this just pushes up power draw even in low power games or even in just apps, and itll cause more fan noise and wear. why would you do this and why would you then point this out as a good thing? it still doesnt change that there will still be games where they cant uncap the frame rate or let the res go wherever it wants, it just means itll do that while pointlessly running at full tilt. and i guess any games where its explicitly the clock speed causing an issue in compatibility (very very small amount) they just get put on the incompatible list. how insane. there is literally no benefit to this lol
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
Stux posted:thats... completely bizarre. why would you do this. what possible reasoning is there behind this? this just pushes up power draw even in low power games or even in just apps, and itll cause more fan noise and wear. why would you do this and why would you then point this out as a good thing? I think this is one of those awkwardly phrased statements, more likely they are trying to say is 'hey you can always expect the CPUs/GPUs will run at this frequency WHEN you call on them', like they have confidence in their cooling solution so you don't have to worry that the CPU's going to thermally throttle down to 1.8GHz when you expect to be able to get the full 3.6.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:47
|
|
|
i dont know, this bit: "Those frequencies are completely locked and won't adjust according to load or thermal conditions - a point Microsoft emphasised several times during our visit." makes it pretty clear even due to load the frequency wont change. they seem to be being quite clear that its locked at 3.6 or 3.8 thats very weird, especially on a zen 2 chip thats sharing a die with the gpu. what an odd decision.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
Stux posted:it still doesnt change that there will still be games where they cant uncap the frame rate or let the res go wherever it wants, it just means itll do that while pointlessly running at full tilt. and i guess any games where its explicitly the clock speed causing an issue in compatibility (very very small amount) they just get put on the incompatible list. I doubt there will be any wholly incompatible games. I could be wrong, but Microsoft is being very confident about every game working. Red Warrior posted:I think this is one of those awkwardly phrased statements, more likely they are trying to say is 'hey you can always expect the CPUs/GPUs will run at this frequency WHEN you call on them', like they have confidence in their cooling solution so you don't have to worry that the CPU's going to thermally throttle down to 1.8GHz when you expect to be able to get the full 3.6. I mean, maybe, but the words "completely locked and won't adjust according to load or thermal conditions" don't invite much wiggle room.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
Maybe that's why the Xbox has to be a giant cooling tower.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
there will be a small number of entirely incompatible games, its impossible to avoid it. nintendos handhelds all have the processor from the one before in specifically for backwards compatibility rather than adjusting the new cpu to run things and they still end up with a few games that dont work. same with the ps2 having a full compliment of ps1 chips in order to run ps1 games, but it still has games that completely wont boot or have huge issues. always a very very small list and generally confined to stuff people dont care much about, but you cant ever really avoid it even when you put the entire last console inside your new one.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
Stux posted:there will be a small number of entirely incompatible games, its impossible to avoid it. nintendos handhelds all have the processor from the one before in specifically for backwards compatibility rather than adjusting the new cpu to run things and they still end up with a few games that dont work. same with the ps2 having a full compliment of ps1 chips in order to run ps1 games, but it still has games that completely wont boot or have huge issues. always a very very small list and generally confined to stuff people dont care much about, but you cant ever really avoid it even when you put the entire last console inside your new one. There weren't any incompatibilities going from the Xbox One to the Xbox One X, which moved to an entirely different RAM setup. I don't think I would put much money on it, but this is a bet I feel comfortable making. They're out there saying that every game and peripheral that runs on an Xbox One today will work on a Series X. It shows a lot of confidence.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 16:02
|
|
|
Zerot posted:There weren't any incompatibilities going from the Xbox One to the Xbox One X, which moved to an entirely different RAM setup. I don't think I would put much money on it, but this is a bet I feel comfortable making. They're out there saying that every game and peripheral that runs on an Xbox One today will work on a Series X. It shows a lot of confidence. the launch ps3 and the ps2 literally have the entire older console inside of them and still have some games that dont work. microsoft in the article that brought this all up do say this themselves as well: quote:Ronald said, "The goal is definitely the thousands of titles that run on Xbox One today. If the game runs on Xbox One, it is our goal to get that to run on Series X. There might be some one-off exceptions here or there," he added, noting that "licensing or a technical issue[s]" should be the only possible roadblocks. this is normal and entirely expected and itll be a tiny number of things, and anything people actually care about theyll make sure gets going. but its not possible to get 100% on everything.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 16:10
|
|
|
univbee posted:We can't even get people running SQL servers to sanitize their inputs which is trivially easy. Hope is not the case here- but is very probable - poo poo happens
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 16:41
|
|
|
Stux posted:but its not possible to get 100% on everything. We will see! Console launches are always exciting.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
Battleborn had better work or so help me...
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
univbee posted:Battleborn had better work or so help me... I think the servers go down in early 2021, so... My copy of The Culling 2 is going to be much less useful on the Series X, sadly.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 17:06
|
|
|
Zerot posted:I think the servers go down in early 2021, so... 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 17:06
|
|
|
ya know if i really wanted to play high res versions of old xbox games i'd have the current xbox that was advertised as doing that instead of paying another 500 dollars for the same thing with still no new games
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:44 |
|
|
Real hurthling! posted:ya know if i really wanted to play high res versions of old xbox games i'd have the current xbox that was advertised as doing that instead of paying another 500 dollars for the same thing with still no new games Backward compatibility is a great consumer-friendly feature and I'm glad both new systems have it.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2020 17:16
|
|