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Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010


Gonna be honest, I've only really seen some scattered episodes, and the back end of Season 2, and mostly filled my missing knowledge with wiki articles. So, if there was a bunch more build up to this, yeah, I missed it. My bad.

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Lupus Rufus
Aug 11, 2008

Prepare for trouble!

And make it a double!

I just noticed something: Moon didn't miss Toffee's heart--she intentionally shot off a finger to send a message, she couldn't aim it at his heart at the time.

Also that new ending theme is Sailor Moon as gently caress. Super Sailor Butterfly 3 was rad too.

Lupus Rufus
Aug 11, 2008

Prepare for trouble!

And make it a double!

Like, she couldn't bring herself to kill Toffee so she went for a half-measure. Eclipsa's power wasnt bullshit, but I'm sure Eclipsa woulda been like "WHY DID YOU DO THAT??".

And I wonder if part of it is that she knew if she outright aimed at his heart, Eclipsa would no longer be imprisoned. She wasn't ready for that. Then at the end of Toffee, she went and wasted spell attempts without having any mana left at the time.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009



That was fun, a good payoff for what they've built up over the last two seasons.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

I always liked that Toffee was the only character who didn't play by everyone else's rules. On some level, the conflicts within Mewni are gamified in certain scenes in a way that gives the characters greater context for why the conflicts are pointless or misrepresented:
1) The reenactment of the Mewni Monster Massacre showing Star that the monsters weren't the bad guys there

2)The huge game of king of the hill that represents political/inter-familial backstabbing that only serves to further damage their relationships with each other

3)The board game that Queen Moon plays with Buff Frog that helps her see that they are both being guided by the same propaganda, just with the positions switched, and that there is no difference between them in any real sense.

The main difference between the villains is how they treat these situations - Ludo wants to play the game by it's own rules, by gaining his own magic so that he can fight the royal family on his own terms and at least hope to win. He desperately wants to sit at the big girls table and play politics with the others, but they don't take him seriously and he overcompensates.

Toffee however, has no interest in playing. He tries to be "above it all" by destroying the game by destroying magic itself, completely leveling the playing field until Star's rebirth - until she returns, noone has magic and both the player's castles are in ruins. Toffee has thrown the board into the fire and declared victory by default, not even sticking around for the climax - he was just going to leave everyone in the ruins of the castle, go home and have a beer now that they were no longer any threat. He didn't even do Ludo the favour of blaming his weak body for his eventual failure - he just crushes his spirit completely and walks off (Ludo: "Did I play any part in this?" Toffee: *Dismissively*"No.")

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Kurui Reiten posted:

I think what kinda gets me is that at the end, Star getting a tiny morsel of magic from the pot is enough to let her reform her wand, reconstitute her body, go full on Super Butterfly 3, and cast DIE on Toffee, all in like one smooth motion. Meanwhile, to get a spell to disable his immortality, Moon had to go to the Queen that had to be imprisoned, make a pact with her, chant an entire spell, apparently taint her body, and hit him in the heart (which she missed, but still). Star just blasted out a massive rear end beam and skipped all that, with a speck of magic.

Yeah, it's a great ending, but I hope we get a little more explanation on what exactly that was all about. So far, it doesn't make Eclipsa look very threatening, since her spell was pretty much blown out of the water by a relative novice with less power.

You also have to account for where they were at the time and what this represented. That morsel of magic was a new unicorn, a new power source that could revive her wand and let her restore the magic ocean Toffee corrupted. You'll note that her presence was restoring magic a bit at a time, so between her getting a power source and Toffee leaving I could see the process speeding up significantly. She also found that morsel by going to the magic ocean (something someone must have done if Toffee knew he could stay put during the explosion), diving down, and finding a place so deep that even Glossaryck had no idea where or what it was.

To make an analogy, Moon borrowed a helicopter from her grandmother, learned how to pilot it, and then flew from the base of a cliff to its top. When she tried again at the end, the helicopter failed to fly because Toffee had put sugar in the whole fuel supply. Not the gas tank, but the world's fuel supply. Star not only found out how to purify the fuel on her own, she also created a jet pack that could go twice as high twice as fast with no need to learn a helicopter's controls.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

yay


Lupus Rufus posted:

I just noticed something: Moon didn't miss Toffee's heart--she intentionally shot off a finger to send a message, she couldn't aim it at his heart at the time.

No, the reason she didn't aim for his heart is because if she did Eclipsa would have been freed. The deal was "when your foe is dead, I get my freedom". Moon found a loophole, she just used the spell to wound/scare Toffee while not killing him which kept Eclipsa imprisoned. Unfortunately, now that Star has killed Toffee for real the contract is complete (the deal never specified that the spell needed to be used to kill Toffee, just that Toffee needed to be dead) and Eclipsa will be freed.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Who's a little boy now?



Grimey Drawer

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

No, the reason she didn't aim for his heart is because if she did Eclipsa would have been freed. The deal was "when your foe is dead, I get my freedom". Moon found a loophole, she just used the spell to wound/scare Toffee while not killing him which kept Eclipsa imprisoned. Unfortunately, now that Star has killed Toffee for real the contract is complete (the deal never specified that the spell needed to be used to kill Toffee, just that Toffee needed to be dead) and Eclipsa will be freed.

I really enjoyed seeing how Moon's character was exposed during the special. Throughout the rest of the show, she'd been presented as a stern, disciplined woman who, though she clearly loves her daughter, is often emotionally distant. There were a few cracks in the facade in episodes like Storm the Castle and Baby, but for the most part Star's mother was very much a stereotypical queen figure.

And then, across these handful of episodes, it's all laid bare-she doesn't have all the answers, she doesn't know what the right thing to do is, and at her core she's still a scarred, emotionally traumatized girl who lost her mother at a young age and cannot stand to even think of losing her daughter-and when she thinks she has, she's reduced to nothing but helpless sadness and rage. There's just a ton of stuff going on with her character, and I'm excited to see how they'll continue to develop her and her relationship with Star in the future.

Edit: Oh yeah, let's also not forget that part of the reason she's distant from Star is because she's so busy as Queen-a job that involves not only singlehandedly dealing with every single crisis that occurs inside the Kingdom, but involves effectively babying her husband to the point of picking out his (identical) outfits each day. And that behavior in and of itself is a result of early trauma, when she made the choice to take on Toffee directly, and that being queen meant taking charge making all the decisions.

Also, as an aside, if you have a Tumblr and you aren't following storyboard revisionist Ariel V. H, you really should.

Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at Jul 16, 2017 around 15:56

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Looks like the event is up for purchase on streaming services, although the season isn't purchaseable properly because who knows.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Cash Rules Everything Around Me


Grimey Drawer

Acebuckeye13 posted:


Edit: Oh yeah, let's also not forget that part of the reason she's distant from Star is because she's so busy as Queen-a job that involves not only singlehandedly dealing with every single crisis that occurs inside the Kingdom, but involves effectively babying her husband to the point of picking out his (identical) outfits each day.

I found that part of the flashback episode kind of sweet. River is the only one who actually believes in Moon to make the right decision (even if it might turn out to ultimately be a bad one) instead of yelling opinions at her like the High Commission and other advisors.

Also I just think River's the best and I'll hear no opinion to the contrary. I mean, all he needed was a half-hour or so in the air and the birds made him their king!

edit: that new end song is criminally catchy

TwoPair fucked around with this message at Jul 16, 2017 around 19:01

ManlyGrunting
May 29, 2014



This really reminds me of It Hurts! and I love everything about it.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Acebuckeye13 posted:

I really enjoyed seeing how Moon's character was exposed during the special. Throughout the rest of the show, she'd been presented as a stern, disciplined woman who, though she clearly loves her daughter, is often emotionally distant. There were a few cracks in the facade in episodes like Storm the Castle and Baby, but for the most part Star's mother was very much a stereotypical queen figure.

And then, across these handful of episodes, it's all laid bare-she doesn't have all the answers, she doesn't know what the right thing to do is, and at her core she's still a scarred, emotionally traumatized girl who lost her mother at a young age and cannot stand to even think of losing her daughter-and when she thinks she has, she's reduced to nothing but helpless sadness and rage. There's just a ton of stuff going on with her character, and I'm excited to see how they'll continue to develop her and her relationship with Star in the future.

I've noticed a bunch of folks have been itching for a Star corruption arc where she falls to temptation (temporarily, of course), but I never really saw how it could fit with her character growth. Star was tempted many times over the second season, but she always pulled back as soon as she realized she was getting too close to the edge.

On the other hand, Moon has suffered a deep trauma, she's enough of a stubborn leader to think that she has to do everything herself no matter what that might entail, she has much less magical power she could use to accomplish her goals without using evil magic, and (most importantly) she's already gone farther than Star in making a deal with the Queen of Darkness, a deal that has marked her arms and her cheeks. I think Moon falling to the dark side would be both more plausible and more interesting.

Or, wild card option, Miss Heinous has been denying her Butterfly heritage because she'd immediately fall to the dark side if she acknowledged it.

By the way, what's the over/under on Eclipsa being the one who offed her mother?

Bobbin Threadbare fucked around with this message at Jul 16, 2017 around 20:22

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

yay


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

By the way, what's the over/under on Eclipsa being the one who offed her mother?

I dunno...Eclipsa was frozen in a crystal when Moon's mother was killed, that's a pretty good alibi.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Space Cadet Omoly posted:

I dunno...Eclipsa was frozen in a crystal when Moon's mother was killed, that's a pretty good alibi.

Offed her own mother. Eclipsa said her own mother died when she was young, too, but not how it happened.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

yay


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Offed her own mother. Eclipsa said her own mother died when she was young, too, but not how it happened.

Ooooooooh, yeah that's plausible.

Still, I'm not sure yet that Eclipsa is actually evil. So far she really hasn't done anything wrong, it seems like she just wants to be free so she can eat chocolate and date monsters.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

I could see Eclipsa being Moon without restraint. When Moon lost her mother to a great evil, she sought out a particular spell that could kill him, she was dabbling out of necessity - what if that spell was created because a different evil took Eclipsa's mother, and she just went ballistic and in her madness her magic twisted into the darkness she became known for? If Moon did corrupt in a similar way, she could even be a good counterpoint - "This is your magic on evil. Any questions?" The black magic may not be evil, but rage. Blind, chaotic, burn-the-whole-world-and-everything-in-it unfocused rage. Hence her seeming kinda nice - maybe being stuck in crystal let her cool off and stabilise herself?

I did love that BTW with Moon losing her mind with rage and grief after Star's death. First going after Toffee with no magic and no plan, just blind hatred (with the bonus that he kind of let her get it all out, he didn't just leave. He engaged enough to block her attacks and then let her try her immortal killing spell, then when she'd done, he, relatively gently, pushes her into the earth so she can't pursue him. Compare him just swatting Marco aside - he could easily have done the same to Moon but didn't. Maybe his one act of mercy, letting a grieving mother let all her rage out on him?) and second deliriously trying to put the wand back together like a jigsaw puzzle mumbling to herself like a dark souls character ("If I can just.... oh god why won't it fit....") It was really hard to watch but in a really good way. It felt very visceral.

BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at Jul 16, 2017 around 20:53

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Toffee makes such a good villain. So much cold disdain and dismissal. His appearance fits all of that quite well too. A coldblooded business person with slick hair.
It's especially interesting in contrast to Ludos mental instability.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Is there a full version of the new ending song? It's like peak 90s Anime and I can't stop listening to it.

Inkspot
Dec 3, 2013

I believe I have
an appointment.
Mr. Goongala?


These episodes kind of struck me with how many different characters mentioned "death", or that people were "dead" or "dying." We've come a long way from Gundam Wing's "I will end you..." nonsense.

And Ludo choosing to be thrown into the void... Godspeed, you awful, little birdman.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Inkspot posted:

These episodes kind of struck me with how many different characters mentioned "death", or that people were "dead" or "dying." We've come a long way from Gundam Wing's "I will end you..." nonsense.

And Ludo choosing to be thrown into the void... Godspeed, you awful, little birdman.

I remember the creators of Gargoyles had to fight Disney to let Goliath say something like "I will track the Hunter down, and I will kill him." This was just after the Hunter had (as far as Goliath knew) killed his daughter, and he didn't even kill him in the end.

20 years later, Star Butterfly casually suggests killing Toffee and then smiles when she finally has the chance to literally melt his face off.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Cash Rules Everything Around Me


Grimey Drawer

I watched it over and I love Moon's reaction to Star's "HI MOM" in her weird powered up voice

Lanz
May 30, 2013


I'm currently putting my guess in for the "Eclipsa is evil" camp, given that

- Her spells (and we lead to believe they're definitely her's when the chapters of the Royal Spellbook are written by the current queen/bearer) are capable of opening a portal unto evil itself [see: Marco cackling like a crazed madman as he floats in the thing]

- The spell she teaches Moon explicitly calls upon evil powers:

quote:

I call the darkness unto me
From deepest depths of Earth and sea
From ancient evils unawoken
Break the one who can't be broken
To blackest night I pledge my soul
And crush my heart to burning coal
To summon forth the deathly power
To see my hated foe devoured!

Lanz fucked around with this message at Jul 17, 2017 around 00:57

OldTennisCourt
Sep 11, 2011


This is the first episode of the show I watched and "Turns out YA DEAD!" is legitimately one of the best line reads in a cartoon I've heard in years.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Who's a little boy now?



Grimey Drawer

Lanz posted:

I'm currently putting my guess in for the "Eclipsa is evil" camp, given that

- Her spells (and we lead to believe they're definitely her's when the chapters of the Royal Spellbook are written by the current queen/bearer) are capable of opening a portal unto evil itself [see: Marco cackling like a crazed madman as he floats in the thing]

- The spell she teaches Moon explicitly calls upon evil powers:

There's definitely some good arguments for "Eclipsa is Evil," and I personally do expect that we'll see her as a major antagonist going forward (Not in the least because the only other potential major villain that's still around is Heinous, and at this point she's even less threatening than Ludo was in Season 1). At the same time, though, it's not exactly a leap to suspect that she's going to end up as a fairly nuanced character-as teenage Moon said, she certainly didn't sound evil, and thus far the only things we know about her are that she wrote about 'dark' magic, she married a monster, and she ran away from Mewni. If she does become a villain, my guess is that her motivations will likely be rooted in sympathizing with the monsters and wanting to get back at Moon for trying to gently caress her over, but even that is hard to really predict right now.

Benne posted:

Is there a full version of the new ending song? It's like peak 90s Anime and I can't stop listening to it.

Unfortunately, there is not.

OldTennisCourt
Sep 11, 2011


From what little I've seen of her and the backstory I looked up, it's most likely the show goes from "oh man this dude is pure loving evil" to a more complex "Look she's doing bad poo poo but I mean, maybe on some level she's justified?" thing with the new villain.

Considering she took a monster to be her husband, I could see her wanting revenge on a society that shoved her in eternal prison for that and practicing a form of magic they themselves found objectionable. Remember she was annoyed/exasperated that her magic was ~forbidden~

ArmyOfMidgets
Dec 29, 2013

Goons Steal?
No Dignity!


This loving show is aces. What an amazing set of episodes. Rambling because immediately after i saw it, Smash 4 finals in whcih another cool magic lady, Bayonetta, tore apart teh baddies live on Disney XD.

-Moon's characterization is excellent, just seeing how differently she deals with things and how they push the overall state of the world into a negative is great.
-The buildup for eclipse is super cool.
-Star is amazing, and when the time came for soup, i was pretty much in tears. She's so loving cool. Super Mewnie Butterfly 3 is dope as hell.
-Got good laughs at Marco's side of the story. Studying communications lead me to relate too much lol.
-I love Ludo
-Can't wait to see where the Mewman and Monsters go, hopefully something positive happens thanks to thsi whole thing.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Who's a little boy now?



Grimey Drawer

I still can't believe Star loving blew herself up to get to Toffee. Like, it was resolved relatively quickly, but that whole sequence was one giant

OldTennisCourt posted:

This is the first episode of the show I watched and "Turns out YA DEAD!" is legitimately one of the best line reads in a cartoon I've heard in years.

Well, you picked a hell of a time to jump in I definitely recommend going back and watching the earlier episodes if you've got the chance, since there's a ton of background details that might not be immediately apparent just from looking through the wiki. (And, of course, the show itself is pretty fun to watch)

Also, I did just remember that Star describes Eclipsa's chapter as being about "powers of darkness, forces of evil, eternal suffering, blah blah blah," so that's probably another check in the "Eclipsa is Probably Evil" column.

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



If I don't have cable, what's my best option for watching this the season 3 stuff? Amazon Prime?

Trebuchet King fucked around with this message at Jul 17, 2017 around 02:10

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Who's a little boy now?



Grimey Drawer

Trebuchet King posted:

If I don't have cable, what's my best option for watching this? Amazon Prime?

The first two seasons are available on Hulu for streaming, so that's probably your best bet. You can also buy individual episodes or whole seasons on Amazon and iTunes, including the most recent Season 3 episodes.

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



Acebuckeye13 posted:

The first two seasons are available on Hulu for streaming, so that's probably your best bet. You can also buy individual episodes or whole seasons on Amazon and iTunes, including the most recent Season 3 episodes.

I meant the season 3 stuff and edited accordingly, sorry--thanks though!

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Who's a little boy now?



Grimey Drawer

Trebuchet King posted:

I meant the season 3 stuff and edited accordingly, sorry--thanks though!

No problem, hope you're able to find it!

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

By the way, what's the over/under on Eclipsa being the one who offed her mother?

Also I just caught this and that's not how over/under works

(I don't think so-unless she's a great actress, she had some convincing tears coming from her eyes at that revelation).

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

Thinking about it, that tapestry of Moon in the Grandma room sure was misleading.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

I call the darkness unto me from deepest depths of Earth and sea. From ancient evils unawoken, break the one that can't be broken. To blackest night, I pledge my soul and crush my heart to burning coal. To summon forth a deathly power, to see my hated foe devoured.


Just watched it and that was quite the way to end the season.

Wait, that was the opening?!?

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

yay


Is anyone else kind of hoping that Ludo and Eclipsa team up?

Whitenoise Poster
Mar 26, 2010



Man the new ending.

The show desperately wants to be more anime.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

I'm hoping that we eventually see Buff Frog's kids full grown, because Katrina will probably be amazing when she hits Star's age. I'd love to see her catching one of her dad's friends making fun of him for going "soft" and her just stepping in to intimidate the guy. You know she'll be as buff as her daddy when she gets there.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Cash Rules Everything Around Me


Grimey Drawer

Whitenoise Poster posted:

Man the new ending.

The show desperately wants to be more anime.

Wants to be? They did a full-on unironic Sailor Moon transformation, anime achieved.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

One should remember with Eclipsa's tapestry that it's not just any monster she ran off with; it was a huge, three-eyed demon, looking a lot like the same kind as Tom no less.

We've had quite a few counterpart characters in this show; Star's father and mother are often compared to her and Marco, while Ludo and Toffee make the villains a contrasting foil to her and Moon; an immature, insecure and rebellious but proactive younger princeling and a stern, well-dressed authority figure who gets terrifying when they're serious. And Toffee differs from other monsters with his Patrick Bateman look and attitude, but his acts probably defined monsters to Mewmans for a generation at least.

I've got a feeling Eclipsa's going to be another foil. Like Star, she's one of the most powerful Mewni ladies to ever wield the wand, with incredible potential. Star's dated a demon, and shows sympathies with monsters heavily controversial to the rest of her kingdom. Both are seem as rebels, though in different ways, and Star's parents fear she might become like Eclipsa. However, Glossaryck specifically mentioned that Eclipsa was the only one who never questioned his teachings.

Basically, I'm seeing Eclipsa as misunderstood, but not as much as anyone things; my guess, she's a powerful AND skilled mage, with Star's talent and Moon's discipline, and no limits. Her spells are rightfully feared and forbidden; it seems strongly implied that the killing spell is the kind of thing that stains your soul to use, but she just sees them as another tool to play with. Basically, I bet she's what happens when a witch-queen realises she doesn't need to care about what anyone else thinks when she's the most powerful person in Mewni.

Ironslave
Aug 8, 2006

Corpse runner


Space Cadet Omoly posted:

Is anyone else kind of hoping that Ludo and Eclipsa team up?

Eclipsa and Ludo as the surrogate mother and (monster) son they never had.

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Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Inescapable Duck posted:

However, Glossaryck specifically mentioned that Eclipsa was the only one who never questioned his teachings.

He said she was the only one to "leave me be" after passing the book and the wand on to her daughter. This might have been simple neglect as she ignored her Mewman daughter to run away with a monster.

By the way, consider that scene in "Page Turner" again with the knowledge that everyone in that room knew that Moon couldn't be trusted alone with that chapter.

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