Raising (and Being) Peculiar Children: The Gifted and Talented Thread

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litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

You can be gifted and talented and have an IEP if you are like, blind or something.

Seems to me like anyone whose parents can raise a big enough stink can have an IEP.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:50

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 10:07

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

You can be gifted and talented and have an IEP if you are like, blind or something.

Well...yeah. Actually, I had a student in literally that situation. Their IEP meetings were pretty quick, haha. Since gifted and talented isn't in IDEA you can't really address a kid's special needs for that in an IEP. Hence why I'm curious, you could totally make accommodations and set goals for GAT under a 504.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:53

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

litany of gulps posted:

Seems to me like anyone whose parents can raise a big enough stink can have an IEP.

No, that's what 504s are for :haw:

IEPs require a federally recognized disability, afaik.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:54

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

You know, I'm curious about other people's experiences here. I would say about 80% of the IEP's and 504's I've encountered have basically just been families gaming the system to guarantee that their kid can't fail their classes. The SPED departments that I've encountered have essentially been paperwork fabrication departments that do nothing beneficial for anyone. Entering my 5th year of teaching, I see special education as basically a way for saavy parents of kids with problems to guarantee that their kid learns nothing but still graduates, because the kids rapidly recognize that they can't fail regardless of what they do or do not do.

It's honestly disgusting, because a lot of these kids would perform if they had any incentive to, just like any other kid does.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:57

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

You can be gifted and talented and have an IEP if you are like, blind or something.

It varies from state to state what they are called, GIEP, IEP, GEP, etc. Some don't have them at all. Just calling it what I'm used to calling it.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:57

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Hawkgirl posted:

No, that's what 504s are for

IEPs require a federally recognized disability, afaik.

Which includes such issues as "can't read" and "can't write legibly." Which means just any student can qualify, if their parents can sell it properly.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 03:59

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

litany of gulps posted:

You know, I'm curious about other people's experiences here. I would say about 80% of the IEP's and 504's I've encountered have basically just been families gaming the system to guarantee that their kid can't fail their classes. The SPED departments that I've encountered have essentially been paperwork fabrication departments that do nothing beneficial for anyone. Entering my 5th year of teaching, I see special education as basically a way for saavy parents of kids with problems to guarantee that their kid learns nothing but still graduates, because the kids rapidly recognize that they can't fail regardless of what they do or do not do.

It's honestly disgusting, because a lot of these kids would perform if they had any incentive to, just like any other kid does.

That feels like the exact opposite of what I see, where all the regular teachers are teaching using the power of the folksy wisdom their grandma taught them in 1953 about how you should teach a kid. While the special ed department is actually the part of the school that actually attempts to integrate new things and actually follow modern studies and research on what teaching should look like instead of just teaching the same class with the same worksheets that they taught in 1988 but mashed up a little to try to slot it into the current curriculum requirements.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:02

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

That feels like the exact opposite of what I see, where all the regular teachers are teaching using the power of the folksy wisdom their grandma taught them in 1953 about how you should teach a kid. While the special ed department is actually the part of the school that actually attempts to integrate new things and actually follow modern studies and research on what teaching should look like instead of just teaching the same class with the same worksheets that they taught in 1988 but mashed up a little to try to slot it into the current curriculum requirements.

You're in some crazy charter school, no?

This has been my urban public school experience. We don't have folksy wisdom here, those folks got purged out with the reform superintendent. We have mostly first year teachers, every year. Lots of the kids that should have IEP's don't, because their parents don't know the process. Many of the ones that do are, like I said, in my opinion just gaming the system. The ones with obvious autism often have IEP's but their parents don't know the system so they don't actually get any of the benefits that should come with the IEP, because the SPED department is busily fabricating paperwork claiming the these kids did get those benefits when the reality is the opposite.

Edit: To be fair, the kids with Down's Syndrome and the like do get the support necessary.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:05

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

litany of gulps posted:

You know, I'm curious about other people's experiences here. I would say about 80% of the IEP's and 504's I've encountered have basically just been families gaming the system to guarantee that their kid can't fail their classes. The SPED departments that I've encountered have essentially been paperwork fabrication departments that do nothing beneficial for anyone. Entering my 5th year of teaching, I see special education as basically a way for saavy parents of kids with problems to guarantee that their kid learns nothing but still graduates, because the kids rapidly recognize that they can't fail regardless of what they do or do not do.

It's honestly disgusting, because a lot of these kids would perform if they had any incentive to, just like any other kid does.

Absolutely not my experience. The kids in my classes with IEPs absolutely benefit from them (in a good way). I actually wish a few more of mine had 504s, it seems like a thing that my community doesn't know about so they don't take advantage of it. I don't teach in a rich area though. I had a long term sub gig in a rich, rich place before my current gig and yeah a shitload more of those students had 504s. I think it is something parents take advantage of to get their children special treatment, but that's kind of what it's designed for. Yeah I do think it's a little bit more "my kid is too special to be treated like other kids" and a little less "we're working on figuring out what's going on, but for now here's what we know works with our kid" but in my experience the 504 plans are helpful. Let me be fair though, a lot of the accommodations in IEPs and 504 plans don't apply to my classroom since I'm an elective teacher, so they are way less a pain to me than they are to other teachers.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:07

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

litany of gulps posted:

Which includes such issues as "can't read" and "can't write legibly." Which means just any student can qualify, if their parents can sell it properly.

Has to be one of these, doesn't it? http://www.specialeducationguide.com/disability-profiles/ So your can't read/can't write legibly kids probably are being identified as dyslexic or similar?

Edit: sorry I keep double posting, I'm so used to reading the big D&D threads I just assume the time it takes to write a post = 8 more replies.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:10

Viva Miriya: Jan 9, 2007

lmao that you are still sucking each others dicks and clits over something you came across during your schooling.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:11

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Hawkgirl posted:

Absolutely not my experience. The kids in my classes with IEPs absolutely benefit from them (in a good way). I actually wish a few more of mine had 504s, it seems like a thing that my community doesn't know about so they don't take advantage of it. I don't teach in a rich area though. I had a long term sub gig in a rich, rich place before my current gig and yeah a shitload more of those students had 504s. I think it is something parents take advantage of to get their children special treatment, but that's kind of what it's designed for. Yeah I do think it's a little bit more "my kid is too special to be treated like other kids" and a little less "we're working on figuring out what's going on, but for now here's what we know works with our kid" but in my experience the 504 plans are helpful. Let me be fair though, a lot of the accommodations in IEPs and 504 plans don't apply to my classroom since I'm an elective teacher, so they are way less a pain to me than they are to other teachers.

I had a kid 2 years ago that burned his leg at work with some hot grease. He skipped class every day, but he had a 504 requiring nebulous accommodations (not sure why a leg burn needs accommodations in English class, but OK) that would lead to meetings if he failed. He knew this, so he... skipped class every day knowing that in the end, there'd be a big meeting and he'd get passed anyway.

Had another kid that year with an IEP that was absolutely not stupid and could converse and socially interact as an adult, but couldn't really read very well because he dropped out to join a gang and street race for a while. He was on a comparable level to many of my LEP kids, though, and I'm pretty certain he could've dramatically improved his reading ability if he'd ever been required to. He knew he couldn't fail classes though, so he just didn't do anything.

It seems to run in families. All of my students from X family are on IEP's, regardless of how different the kids actually are in terms of ability or personality.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:13

Viva Miriya: Jan 9, 2007

BrandorKP posted:

Why is this in D&D? In threads over the years here it’s become apparent that there is an abnormal concentration of us here. However, I’m not going to repeat anyone I’ve seen mention it. It also may be explanative for other posters. Also bunch of you are ignorant of the repercussions of learning differences, beyond the one discussed in this thread. I also am less looking for an ask/tell and more for a discussion. Understanding some of the ways our brains are different have larger repercussions to a wide variety of conversations, and I think that is very much an on topic discussion to have.

Something to immediately get out of the way, gifted doesn’t mean better. The longitudinal studies I’ve seen have basically found that we have the same outcomes and wide variety of lives as everyone else, with one exception we tend to make about a 20% higher income at whatever we do.

First some ground rules:
1) This is not a thread for: “I took this test on the internet. It says my IQ is 175.” gently caress you, get out.
2) It’s ok to have intensity and anger in this thread. Wait what? One of the things that often defines the gifted is rather extreme emotional intensity. There are a couple of ways to talk about it, Dąbrowski’s language (hyperexcitability, etc), the more recent language of “emotional intensity in the gifted and talented”, or alternate language like Gladwells “The rage to master”.
3) It’s okay to be exhausted. Parenting someone with the emotional intensity of the gifted is beyond tiring. Do you feel like you are drowning, that you need help desperately, if you need to say that. It’s ok to say that. I’m exhausted, my wife is exhausted.

So what do we mean by Gifted and Talented:

I like this definition:

"Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally."

Practically a child has meet the criteria of their state’s or district’s program. Usually this involves intelligence testing. Now for anyone familiar with the messiness of IQ testing obviously that means problems. There are inherent biases in the tests (more on that later). But generally most states or school districts recognized giftedness as being a particular number of standard deviations from the mean as expressed by the district or states chosen tests. In general the floor starts at the top 2.5% of children, in other words two standard deviations. A some states / districts define it as children at least two grade levels above their age group. But some states break down the gifted into categories. Gifted at two standard deviations, Highly Gifted at up to three, Exceptionally gifted up to four and profoundly gifted for anything higher. To be quite honest once one starts getting up Exceptional and Profound range, testing doesn’t mean much. Many of these tests have “test ceilings” and stop effectively differentiating somewhere between the highly and exceptional range. Generally the test alone is not adequate and an assessment by a child physiologist is usually necessary too. Some general information on Testing http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm I can comment on what I remember by my own experiences if anyone has questions of what it’s like for a child. I am gearing up for the experience as a parent.

At the low end gifted scale moderately gifted or gifted, the biases inherent in intelligence testing can disadvantage children of color, the bilingual, those with additional learning disabilities, and the poor. To make matters worse schools and teachers can prejudge children in these categories (esp. colored, bilingual, poor) and will often press for another diagnosis (ADHD, Aspergers, OCD, etc) because they are failing to recognize what is really going on with the child. Again one of the characteristics of gifted children can be very strong emotional intensity and very high energy (more on that later and why). They can be exhausting to deal with. Early on they can often do very poorly in school because frankly, they are bored out of their minds. The easy road out for a teacher, is to jam them into another category to be medicated or removed from the class. This is a particularly cruel mistake. Even in the case of Profound and Exceptionally gifted children parent generally have to strongly advocate for their children. With the exception of the wealthy, this necessary advocacy on the part of the parents of these children is a pretty universal experience and many of the resources for parents are centered around it. At some point later I’ll probably share my personal experiences and link to it in this post.

Asynchronous, More (Mommy and Daddy are so very exhausted )

A good place to start : http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10172
One of these most common traits of the gifted and talent is emotional intensity. We can be more empathetic, more angry, more certain, incredibly stubborn about what we think ought to be, etc. There is greater need for self emotional and impulse regulation. When confronted by teacher and individuals without understanding of these characteristics this can make the gifted child particular vulnerable. These traits also eventually open up the gifted and talents to problems like addiction (especially in adolescence) or depression. Mishandling of the gifted can lead to problematic outcomes for everyone. An example, to attend the public county level congregated gifted only school, I had a multi hour bus ride with about 30 other students. At some point we (a group ranging from second graders to high school seniors) collectively decided that the bus was disgusting for the long time each day we spent on it. A large group brought cleaning supplies and organized a cleaning party. This was squashed by the driver and we were forbidden from cleaning. The response by about 10% of the riders was to bring tools. They began dissembling the bus covertly over a period of about two weeks. Removing bolts and nuts, separating rivets, drilling holes in the floor, taking fishing line and bouncing the bolts off the roadway. Eventually the driver found many seats in the back half of the bus detached at the end of a ride and the wheels exposed to the interior as the covers had been pried up. The bus had to be removed from service for maintenance.

In many of the developmental disorders part of the brains function is exaggerated or depressed. A good way to think of the gifted is exaggerated but across the board, just more of everything. Other learning differences might have parts of the brain depressed or exaggerated singly or in combination. This is one of the reasons we can often be misdiagnosed as developmentally disordered. And again think of the particular cruelty of that situation! But this also confronts a parent with a child that can be as (or more) difficult to care for properly than a developmentally disable child! Mistakes can spiral out of hand quickly. Because of the rapidity with which the gifted learn, behaviors become entrenched rapidly. Habituation and implicit concepts form more rapidly and are as hard to unlearn or modify as they are for anyone else. As a parent sometime you get only once chance with a particular issue and the subsequent un-learning or behavior modifying can be quite rough.

From Living with Intensity:

"Their excitement is viewed as excessive, their high energy as hyperactivity, their persistence as nagging, their questioning as undermining authority, their imagination as not paying attention, their passion as being disruptive, their strong emotions and sensitivity as immaturity, their creativity and self-directedness as oppositional. They stand out from the norm. But then, what is normal?"

Not mentioned in that quote but worth mentioning is also sensitivity. Both emotional and physical sensitivity can be exaggerated in the gifted. Again “qualitatively different from the norm” is a good phrase to remember, the experiences of gifted child can be rather radically different from other children the same age this is good example:

From: http://www.davidsongifted.org

“Ten-year-old Greg Barnes was acknowledged by school personnel as highly gifted. His scholastic achievement test scores placed him in the 99.9th percentile, as did his score on the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale. On this particular day, when he returned home from school, Mrs. Barnes knew immediately from his despondent expression that the day had been less than ideal."Something wrong?" she probed gently. "Yeah," he said in a tone of thorough disgust, "I got into trouble. We'll have to see the principal tomorrow." "What for?" "I got into a fight with Joe and beat him up." Mrs. Barnes was shocked. Greg was not an aggressive child. He had never reported such an incident before. In fact, he was an extraordinarily sensitive boy who genuinely cared about other people. "What happened?" she inquired further.
Greg explained that he and Joe had exchanged insults during music class. Both boys, Greg insisted, were at fault. Later, Joe had cornered Greg by the lockers, taunting him, threatening to beat him up, and egging Greg on to fight. Greg responded by punching Joe, who punched Greg back. When the teacher came onto the scene, Joe was crying while Greg continued to rain punches upon him."Well, it sounds like you stood up for yourself…" began Mrs. Barnes. She was surprised at Greg's immediate and heated denial. "No, Mom - it wasn't that simple." "But wasn't he threatening to beat you up?""No, Mom! You don't understand!"
Greg was getting visibly more upset as Mrs. Barnes attempted to convey that she was not being judgmental. Unable to comprehend why her efforts to convey caring and understanding were being met with mounting frustration, Mrs. Barnes decided to defuse the issue.
"OK. Why don't you write down what happened and explain how you feel about it. Obviously you were there and you know why it happened better than I do."
Greg willingly took a seat at the typewriter and laboriously typed out his story and explanation. An hour and a half later, he handed the pages to his mother: "It all began in third grade..." started the first paragraph. Greg went on to describe in careful detail how he and Joe had met and embarked upon a rocky friendship. At certain times, Joe seemed to want to be friends. At other times, Joe refused to allow Greg to participate in ongoing playground activities. Greg admitted to sometimes levelling "insults" at Joe in retaliation for these playground rejections.
Greg listed incidents from 3rd and 4th grades as well as the 5th grade incident that precipitated the immediate problem. For each incident, he detailed each child's behaviours with painful accuracy in an effort to render an objective view of what had happened. Greg's outburst was, according to him, not only a response to the day's happenings, but a reaction to the entire pattern of incidents composing their relationship over the past two years. The argument of the day was simply "the straw that broke the camel's back".
The next day, Joe, too, wrote out his version of the fight. He wrote simply, "Greg hit me and then I hit him back and he kept hitting me."

Many of you reading this are going to be familiar with the issue of emotional regulation in the learning disabled. You probably have encountered some descriptions of this online ranging from the rather derogatory to mildly offensive. Essentially learning differences interact with and alter the standard emotional responses because emotions responses derive from learned concepts. Again the gifted learn concepts more quickly and make those learned connections habitual and stronger more quickly.

Here’s a rough and simplified description of the more recent thought regarding how emotions work in the brain (invisibilia is doing a great series on this, it’s worth listening to). Basically we have four things we feel, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, arousal and depressed activity. The various combinations of those things interacting are what we experience as emotions, but the emotions are learned concepts and can result from learned concepts. When understood this way, why learning differences interact strongly with ones emotional inner life becomes immediately apparent. Personally one of the ways I’ve been dealing with it as a parent is to use techniques for addressing systematic biases. Identify the feeling, describe the response, describe an alternative response that would be more socially acceptable.

Understanding these things, the problems with confrontational approaches or power dynamics that the child might encounter outside of the home becomes readily apparent. An adult (say a child care provider) realizing they have been successfully emotionally manipulated and outwitted by a three year old can react confrontationally. It doesn’t go well this is good metaphor for what it can look like:

http://imgur.com/3s5qCcU

My parents primarily prevented this by carefully controlling which adults I interacted with. After my diagnosis I entered a congregated class room situation (which I think is the preferable way of dealing with the highly and above categories). I stayed in variations of a congregated classrooms until my sophomore year of high school. I wanted to be a swim team captain and to play other sports. Sports were not available at the congregated public school I had been attending.

Anyway I think I’ve gotten a good start here with a couple of jumping off points for discussion. Relevant post will be amended to the OP and links to external sites or good posts in the thread will be added as they come up. Eventually I’m going to write another decently long post about predation, the gifted often have a experience of being targeted. That one is going to be less based in facts and research and more personal. It might be a while before I’m comfortable doing it. But I can put you onto the tone. The author of the Miss Peregrines both was a gifted and talented kid in a congregated public school. His metaphor of the hollows looking to eat the children’s eyes, that a good idea of the places that post is going to go when I get it written.

Links to websites and good posts possible to continue in reserved post:
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3824035&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post473503557 - excellent post addressing why g&t is special education

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:15

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Hawkgirl posted:

Has to be one of these, doesn't it? http://www.specialeducationguide.com/disability-profiles/ So your can't read/can't write legibly kids probably are being identified as dyslexic or similar?

Edit: sorry I keep double posting, I'm so used to reading the big D&D threads I just assume the time it takes to write a post = 8 more replies.

Yeah, it's always dyslexia and dysgraphia. But IEP's are typically extremely vague, and usually they only outline accommodations and modifications rather than giving any sort of information about what the student is actually diagnosed with.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:15

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

litany of gulps posted:

You're in some crazy charter school, no?

I'm a technology coordinator for a set of school districts in a really rural area where each individual school is like between 30 and 300 kids so all the schools share a school nurse and technology planning and lunch program stuff (don't make me explain why that doesn't mean it's one school district). So definitely the exact opposite of an urban school district. The school with 30 kids is so small that it's not even one town, it's four entire town's schools. Four whole towns that have only 30 kids spread across like 40 miles.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:21

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I'm a technology coordinator for a set of school districts in a really rural area where each individual school is like between 30 and 300 kids so all the schools share a school nurse and technology planning and lunch program stuff (don't make me explain why that doesn't mean it's one school district). So definitely the exact opposite of an urban school district. The school with 30 kids is so small that it's not even one town, it's four entire town's schools. Four whole towns that have only 30 kids spread across like 40 miles.

My school has an AP devoted to fabricating SPED paperwork, and she has appropriated at least 3-4 TA's as her secretaries. People who should be in classrooms providing assistance for special needs kids, instead helping her fabricate paperwork. Different worlds.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:24

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

litany of gulps posted:

Yeah, it's always dyslexia and dysgraphia. But IEP's are typically extremely vague, and usually they only outline accommodations and modifications rather than giving any sort of information about what the student is actually diagnosed with.

Yeah interesting, we definitely have way different IEP/sped experiences. My kids with IEPs absolutely can (and sometimes do) fail all their classes, and our sped team will have our back on it. I really like our sped team, they will raise holy hell if we're not following an IEP, but they 100% have our back on fair grading.

Edit: there's gotta be some way to report that lady.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:30

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Hawkgirl posted:

Edit: there's gotta be some way to report that lady.

The joy of the corporate structure of schooling is that it seems like there's a way to report people, just like if you worked at Wal-Mart or whatever, but the first step of that report is always entirely in the hands of your supervisor, the principal. Who cannot, at any cost, allow news of her failure to follow federal law to progress to the next step of the chain of command, the district manager.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:33

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

Anonymously call county/state sped offices?

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:39

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Hawkgirl posted:

Anonymously call county/state sped offices?

Maybe. If anything threatened school leadership, it was standardized test scores. Fighting lovely HR games with them isn't something that will ever be productive. I'm in Texas. Nobody is going to fix this mess. State government wants to tear it all down and replace it with charters. Hell, they're mostly there.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:44

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

litany of gulps posted:

My school has an AP devoted to fabricating SPED paperwork, and she has appropriated at least 3-4 TA's as her secretaries. People who should be in classrooms providing assistance for special needs kids, instead helping her fabricate paperwork. Different worlds.

The funniest thing about going to a bunch of different schools is that literally every single school has exactly one position that is filled by one person in every other school but somehow requires like 8 people to do it in just one school.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:50

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

CyclicalAberration posted:

How useful do these gifted and talented programs actually end up being? I'd worry that the tend to drive an unhealthy world view and are often poorly taught and administered. I believe in the effectiveness of tracking but it isn't clear to me that these programs are designed in the most effective way and doing something more holistic as mentioned here by Terence Tao would be important.

I can for sure confirm that yeah, if you have an easy time academically, and are not given the right guidance and challenges, you will get hosed up when you reach a stage of education that challenges you. Until I reached my A-Levels I did brilliantly in everything that didn't require a physical element without the slightest effort; I was a competent reader when kindergarten started and other kids didn't know the alphabet and I had an adult reading ability before I reached middle school; In high school I was the joint-best at maths in a school of 2,000; I salvaged my abysmal practical grade in Resistant Materials by scoring 100% on every single written test we took. (I don't just mean sports when I say physical, I can't use a saw straight, hammer in a nail, or lower a drill properly either. hosed up eyesight + tremor = atrocious coordination.)

And it didn't do me much good because when I started meeting things that actually challenged me I immediately dropped them and took up other courses instead. Kids who I had towered over, intellectually, sailed past me without trouble while I was mired in having to actually make an effort and finding I'd no desire to do so. Fortunately, after taking a couple of years out from education after graduating HS I was able to get my poo poo together and went to uni to do a Bachelor's, then a Master's. Other personal poo poo happened during the MA that made life hard and I was not doing as well as I'd hoped as a result, but by this time I'd managed to wind my neck in enough to stick with it regardless and got an adequate ( :haw:

) grade. Of course now I'm disabled AF and can't carry on towards a doctorate like I'd want to, but maybe in the future.

I wasn't in any G&T programs though. Only my High School had one but it was actually the name given to what most would regard as Special Education. Anyway my point is that yes, kids who have an easy time in a given field should be given support to challenge them so that they both grow and don't become complacent and give up when they start meeting difficulties. Honestly that should be the goal of all education though, we know well that humans in general do best when confronted with meaningful challenges that they can rise to. But we have limited resources, so :shrug:

# ? Jun 18, 2017 05:37

Hawkperson: Jun 20, 2003

Meeting a variety of needs in a mixed ability/general ed classroom is called differentiation, and a teacher who is well-supported and worth a drat is capable of doing it. That pesky "well-supported" part, though.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 06:13

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

OwlFancier posted:

I got stuffed into one of these cos I was some kind of 1% wonder child.

Turns out I was just an early peaker and haven't actually gotten better at anything since I was 10. lol.

The issue I had is that, while my overall IQ was reasonably high (nothing crazy, 135 IIRC), the sub-scores varied a lot. I was good at the things that allowed me to do well in a school setting, but found myself having trouble when having to perform in "real time." I can get by, but there are certain situations where I do poorly.

I can't remember what the specific sub-scores were called, but I remember what a couple of the specific tests were (this was part of some more comprehensive exam that includes both an IQ test and some other tests). One involved me being read sentences and asked to repeat back as much as I could remember. I could never get more than about 5 words in, and the examiner kept wondering if something was wrong or distracting me because I was doing so poorly, but despite my best efforts the information would just float away if I stopped thinking about it for a split second. For whatever reason this only applied to remembering things "from scratch"; if shown a set of sentences I could point out which one I was previously read, even if the sentence was long. The other was some sort of variant on this, where I was shown a list of words and had to list as many as I could afterwards. I think this is why, when reading text, I am constantly rereading previous paragraphs/sentences to remind me of what they said. It's something I'm so used to doing that I never even noticed it until I thought about it, but I'm constantly returning to previous text to refresh myself on it when reading any sort of passage that requires remembering other recent sentences. I also sometimes wonder if this is related to my complete inability to form and hold mental pictures.

Anyways, after the exam the psychologist told me that I technically had some sort of cognitive disorder (that was defined as having an abnormally large gap between certain sub-scores in the tests I took) but that there wasn't really any point to officially diagnosing it since there's no real treatment and I was getting by well enough in school/work.

The main way I've found this to impact me in my daily life is that I generally come off as really slow and stupid in complex verbal conversations, because I can't follow anything other than short sentences easily. People are often surprised as how intelligent/professional (for lack of a better description) I sound in written correspondence, like e-mails. I can usually avoid this problem in most conversations, since my job doesn't require much work-related talking (I'm a programmer). I also can't remember information well without a prompt of some sort. Like, if asked to name 10 movies (literally any movies, not just my favorite ones)I would have trouble doing so. It's like my mind is some empty void that has a lot of trouble pulling forth information unless it has a reference point, but if a reference point exists I can form the connection to a memory.

(I'm mostly just mentioning this stuff to get it off my chest. There's not really any other context where it makes sense to talk about this, and it would just be awkward oversharing in most situations.)

# ? Jun 18, 2017 06:30

i am harry: Oct 14, 2003

My 4 year old daughter's birthday fell 10 days past the cutoff for automatic entrance to Kindergarten. The school district we were moving into would not allow her, 10 days younger than her peers, to enter Kindergarten last year unless she placed in G&T.
So, I took my 4 year old down to a giant building and paid $250 and they took her into a room without me and tested her on things like reading cognition and shapes and then told me she passed, which meant that I got to spend $0 for her to go to a "Gifted and Talented Center" (a school with teachers specifically focused on G&T kids) and be in a class full of them all year instead of >$160 a week at a private daycare facility.
So that's all great and I'm happy for her but every kid needs the attention and education she is receiving, and it is really sad in the deepest, i-feel-sorry-for-our-species-and-all-its-missed-opportunities sort of a way.

i am harry fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jun 18, 2017

# ? Jun 18, 2017 06:41

BirdOfPlay: Feb 19, 2012; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

You can be gifted and talented and have an IEP if you are like, blind or something.

I was told that I had an IEP and would've been categorized as a G&T student. I think it related to me being bad at English, which I took remedial classes for 6th and 7th. It could've also been because I "tricked" a random child psychologist into thinking that I was autistic. Or maybe it was just the ADHD thing. :shrug:

Amniotic posted:

Traditional tracked programs at the elementary school level are separate classes that GT kids are put into by virtue of testing (which is hard to game) or recommendation (which opens the door to the high achieving children of tiger moms and such). At the middle and high school level, there might be courses that are "above" AP in terms of difficulty of qualification, such as seminar classes that are ostensibly about teaching children with vastly different learning needs that instead become prestige classes for high achieving students. Typically these courses are taught by specialist teachers with certification in gifted education, which is a type of special education cert.

Huh, I was never involved with anything besides standard tracking in VA, so this is all kinda interesting. The closest was the specialty center I went to for HS, but that only included 2 of my 7 courses for the year. All the rest were done as normal school classes. I could blame my lack of achievement on missing this in my education, but I think just the above puts me out of the normal range of experiences in that regard.

BrandorKP posted:

Gifted boys specifically between the ages of 4 - 9 , can often get sent to be evaluated for ADHD. After 9 it seems to be a thing they grow out of. I don't think it's the same as ADHD. I got plucked out to get tested for ADHD in first grade, and it coincided with the gifted screening. Until recently I thought a had been ADHD diagnosed too, but examining the record of my IEP that my parents kept, turned out I didn't. The child physiologist my parents consulted, said the following paraphrased " he will be interested in what he is interested in and it will nearly impossible to force him to be interested in something he isn't" I can see how that sort of characteristic could be mistaken for ADHD

Intensity, energy, and the emotional stuff mentioned in your OP are also characteristic of ADHD and, in fact, are what triggered the question. Still, it just seems odd that a lot of cases would go ADHD over gifted unless only the shallowest of readings are done.

EDIT: Ytlaya, that is legit hosed up. They saw you had a learning disability and went "eh, Ytlaya's smart enough, so who cares".

BirdOfPlay fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jun 18, 2017

# ? Jun 18, 2017 09:05

Autism Sneaks: Nov 21, 2016

I'm the Peculiar child with a mouth on the back of my head, AMA

# ? Jun 18, 2017 09:11

ziggurat: Jun 18, 2017; by Smythe

i grew up in a small wheatbelt town and we did things a bit different there. i was born with a glowing caul and the rabbi immediately recognised i had a talent so i was placed in the g&t baby caste and received special training in all the arts of man. my peers mocked me for my obesity, abundant body hair and answering every question with destructive gunfire (as a gifted child i was allowed to bring my pistol to school) but respected my energy beams and ability to transform into an animal. they knew they weren't fit to kiss my rosy a. i often told them so, though it infuriated them. the battles we fought! anyway turns out my talent is for sucking cock so at twelve, out of spite at the great almighty, i returned to the desert from whence i came and nevermore shall organs of increase grace the cathedral of my mouth

# ? Jun 18, 2017 09:44

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

PT6A posted:

Well, a good gifted program will do exactly that. It's not about "a program for the smart kids" or for high achievers. There's AP and IB for that. A good gifted program will purposefully challenge gifted students so that they are forced to experience academic adversity, instead of simply coasting by on their talents. A lot of my classmates complained that they wanted to be out of the gifted program because then everything would be so much easier -- but is that better for the student? Allowing a student to coast by, so that they don't learn proper study skills, and don't learn how to deal with things they aren't innately good at, is no good at all.

I don't think calling gifted programs "white snowflake" programs is good. That's not what they should be, even if admittedly a depressing number currently are. Minority students are gifted at the same rate as anyone else, but too often are not identified as such (very often owing to systemic racism and other biases). This means they are likely to turn into "discipline problems." They will be accused of cheating if they perform beyond expectations. They will act out, they will get into trouble, and they will be punished more harshly than a white student. We know these things are happening to minority students, largely due to systemic racism, and it should be treated like the crime it is. By not establishing programs to support these kids, we are failing them, and by treating gifted programs as some kind of white affectation, we would all but ensure they can never get the support they need.

Where "gifted and talented" programs are used as a club for rich white kids, and they are in far too many cases, we need to address that problem urgently -- I agree. But we shouldn't get rid of the very idea of gifted and talented programs simply because they are often misapplied or mismanaged.

Really, it's just the opposite. Someone who is gifted, but not educated and challenged appropriately, is going to end up being really, really hosed up. Even with a good program, chances are very good they'll still be pretty hosed up in a lot of ways.

nobody said that's what they should be; rather, that's what people had said they are

hth

# ? Jun 18, 2017 16:00

Deadly Ham Sandwich: Aug 19, 2009; Smellrose

Hollismason posted:

This poor man has been led to believe by not only our school system but his family that he was gifted instead of some weird neurotic child with above average intelligence and emotional outbursts.

Just like let them have this.

I didn't realize my school's Gifted and Talented program was anything special until I saw my friend's homework. loving bullshit was way easier. Why are my gifts and talents wasted on loving paper work you fucks!

# ? Jun 18, 2017 16:32

Amniotic: Jan 23, 2008; Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.

The lazy approach to G&T education is acceleration, but it doesn't at solve and in many cases exacerbates the underlying issues. You produce an occasional Terrence Tao, but mostly you get even more emotionally stunted and socially inept children.

The issue here really is getting children with special needs the education that they deserve and set them up to be emotionally healthy. The social privileging given to intrinsic intelligence is insidious in that it demeans both the average and low achievers and simultaneously undercuts the gifted.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 16:58

unlimited shrimp: Aug 30, 2008

Mister Adequate posted:

And it didn't do me much good because when I started meeting things that actually challenged me I immediately dropped them and took up other courses instead.

Similar experience here. It wasn't so much that I would give up when the going got tough, but I never really developed the discipline to effortfully study at things that I didn't grasp easily. There is still a little voice in the back of my head that says I will never master something that doesn't already come naturally. Math was my biggest stumbling block; French and Spanish as well (but not music for some reason). With math in particular, and because I was in an enhanced program, I was too arrogant to admit that maybe in this particular subject I needed to drop to an easier stream. By Grade 9 and 10, I was increasingly motivated and validated by my academic performance, and so bombing in Math was extremely stressful and demotivating.

As to the OP, I was formally flagged as "gifted" in Grade 4 and entered an enhanced program in Grade 5. I had all the associated behavioural problems mentioned. Apparently I was flagged much earlier in Grade 2 or 3 but the teacher derailed the IPRC/IEP process because she felt I was just a delinquent. I still suspect the program exacerbated my introversion and awkward shy-ness because it insulated us from the wider school community but I have no idea if that's accurate or just excuse-making.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 17:14

woke kaczynski: Jan 23, 2015; How do you do, fellow antifa?; Fun Shoe

Someone decided I was profoundly gifted at some point when I was a small child. This led me to be homeschooled and socially broken for most of my childhood. I spent a fair bit of time interacting with the Davidsons, and they're garbage people. I also went to their vanity project school after I stopped being homeschooled, which was an excitingly different kind of shitshow. My life has only improved after removing myself from the deeply toxic "gifted" community around them, and that seems like a more interesting field of discussion than jerking off about beautiful misunderstood geniuses who took an IQ test once.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 17:18

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

What I'm gathering from this thread is that "gifted and talented" children turn out to be neither.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 17:23

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

Who What Now posted:

What I'm gathering from this thread is that "gifted and talented" children turn out to be neither.

I imagine most people in G&T end up above average. But people just hear "above average" and think a lot more than that really means. Like the average income of a person in the US is about 34,000. I bet most G&T students end up above that. But like 50% to 150% higher than that, not 10,000% higher than that.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 17:33

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Who What Now posted:

What I'm gathering from this thread is that "gifted and talented" children turn out to be neither.

Yeah, the problem is that intelligence on its own, beyond a certain point, is completely useless. So, then what has to happen is that gifted education has to focus on things like how do we teach life skills like being able to study, persevering through a lack of immediate understanding or skill, and learning to recognize when you're wrong about something, in a school system that would ordinary not confront these children with those challenges/experiences. And it's pretty clear that a lot of gifted programs are failing at this.

Social isolation is a big one, too. Creating an insular program has its problems, but all the other solutions do as well. If you do nothing, you have a kid that's bored as gently caress all the time, and likely to act out and make themselves a pariah. If you push them into higher grades, they will probably have trouble socializing with people their own age, they won't have the emotional maturity to socialize with their new peers, and especially on the younger side of things, they're likely to be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to WAY too early.

Gifted programs are really less about "hey, this kid is super smart, let's pour resources into them so they can usher in the Age of Aquarius" or whatever, and more about, "what can we do to make sure this kid grows up reasonably functional and sane, and doesn't drive their teachers round the bend too often?"

# ? Jun 18, 2017 18:06

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

the trump tutelage posted:

Similar experience here. It wasn't so much that I would give up when the going got tough, but I never really developed the discipline to effortfully study at things that I didn't grasp easily. There is still a little voice in the back of my head that says I will never master something that doesn't already come naturally. Math was my biggest stumbling block; French and Spanish as well (but not music for some reason). With math in particular, and because I was in an enhanced program, I was too arrogant to admit that maybe in this particular subject I needed to drop to an easier stream. By Grade 9 and 10, I was increasingly motivated and validated by my academic performance, and so bombing in Math was extremely stressful and demotivating.

this was my biggest problem as a gifted student. i had the idea that i was just effortlessly smart and that anything i couldn't intuitively master wasn't worth my time. as a kid i was a smug little know it all shitlord who was easily frustrated to tears when i caught glimpses of my own mediocrity (check my posting history etc.)

i'm going to keep a sharp eye on my daughter for the same tendencies. she's just a toddler so it's way too early to tell but she gets frustrated very easily if she can't just figure out a toy or something. she's also verbally advanced for her age, she's got the capacity of a four year old and she learned the alphabet and numbers up to 25 before she turned 2. if she stays on this trajectory then i'm going to strongly emphasize that being intelligent is great and all but it doesn't mean anything unless you learn to apply it to the real world instead

Who What Now posted:

What I'm gathering from this thread is that "gifted and talented" children turn out to be neither.

it's great to be gifted and talented, but you need to tell these kids that being abnormally "smart" doesn't mean anything without social skills, discipline, and how to work hard. a kid of average intelligence but with a strong work ethic is going to be a lot more successful in life than an intelligent kid who expects their intelligence to carry them and is otherwise lazy and indulgent

# ? Jun 18, 2017 18:16

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

stone cold posted:

got it in one

there are two kinds of people, the average and the below average. nobody else exists.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 20:56

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

blowfish posted:

there are two kinds of people, the average and the below average. nobody else exists.

Based on my experience with the internet this is true.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 21:17

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 10:07

unlimited shrimp: Aug 30, 2008

blowfish posted:

there are two kinds of people, the average and the below average. nobody else exists.

You're talking to stone cold. The only two kinds of people who exist are whites and their victims.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 21:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Raising (and Being) Peculiar Children: The Gifted and Talented Thread

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