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Wait you mean that the tests themselves which students take to be determined to be gifted may in fact have some kind of bias? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/opinion/sunday/race-and-the-standardized-testing-wars.html https://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/whats-wrong-with-standardized-tests/ quote:
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Jun 19, 2017 07:21
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There's no reason to get hot and bothered over this, some of you guys need to just chill.
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Jun 19, 2017 07:23
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Disinterested posted:I'm very happy for you that you've fixed your purpose on wailing about the fall of the House of Lowtax as aggressively as possible but do you think this thread is where you want to set up shop? This means nothing quote:I'm not an expert in this particular field except anecdotally and through limited training in issues of child development that goes with being certified to coach sports, and coaching those sports, as well as my own childhood. Humblebrag quote:But, again, it strikes me that a lot of this area of inquiry rests on a desire to set up totally inorganic schematisms like 'gifted', that are often so nebulous (not even necessarily referring merely to what we think of as intelligence or a class of intelligence, but also things like self-discipline) that they escape any meaningful definition, with the status of gifted resting on inadequate or discredited criteria (IQ tests; brief interviews with psychologists, strong but empirically questionable parental convictions). There has to be some conceptual clarity for this conversation to go anywhere, and Brandor hasn't offered much apart from 'pick your own standard deviation. Obfuscation quote:This issue is all the more clouded by the apparent cloudiness between the treatment of the 'just smart' vs. the 'gifted' alluded to earlier in the thread, which seems to leave 'gifted' as more of a euphemism for 'anyone who's an outlier but doesn't fit in to an otherwise established category'. Passing responsibility quote:And indeed it's quite common for bilingual children to talk very late but to be very advanced speakers when they do talk, linguists tell me. The same sort of unsourced claims that are being whined about by trolls quote:Have you considered taking the log out of your own eye? Seriously though, if you'd ever seen those pictures of Hollismason's mouth, you'd never forget either
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Jun 19, 2017 07:25
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So your chief complaint is that posters are sniping and your proposed solution is to snipe?
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Jun 19, 2017 07:27
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Disinterested posted:So your chief complaint is that posters are sniping and your proposed solution is to snipe? I think you have nothing to offer any more than twodot or Hollismason. Why bother to legitimately engage with people that aren't attempting to genuinely discuss or debate?
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Jun 19, 2017 07:30
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Why did you reply at all, if that's what you believe?
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Jun 19, 2017 07:32
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rudatron posted:Why did you reply at all, if that's what you believe? Assorted reasons! Twodot was simply pathetic in his weak trolling. "Literally whining" indeed. Hollismason is a vile relic from the past. The mere idea of him questioning anyone else's decisions is baffling. Anyone building on such a weak foundation should be challenged on principle.
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Jun 19, 2017 07:38
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Teacher teach thyself to not shitpost
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Jun 19, 2017 07:46
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litany of gulps posted:Hollismason is a vile relic from the past. you registered for these forums in 2001
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Jun 19, 2017 07:46
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Hollismason posted:Yes I am and Yes I did Even if you solve the social problem there is still going to be some variance among students (even if isn't anywhere near as stark as it is today). Tailoring activities to the strengths and weaknesses of each child is simply good pedagogy. It is pretty clear that the issue in the article is funding everything else, and not so much the program itself. I'd go into more detail, but from the wishy washy OP and the way people are reacting to it, there isn't much point. I can understand why it seems like a pointless exercise in the face of larger systemic issues. But there are some interesting discussions to be had on pedagogy from the point of view of a teacher.
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Jun 19, 2017 07:48
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Hollismason posted:Teacher teach thyself to not shitpost Sayeth the man whose solution to a hundred people telling him to go to the dentist for his rotmouth was a pair of pliers!
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Jun 19, 2017 07:49
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No, maybe you should go to the dentist!
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Jun 19, 2017 07:53
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Hollismason posted:No, maybe you should go to the dentist! I still to this day remember you being in denial about the idea that a dentist would take pity on you and offer you charity just so you don't rip your crumbling teeth out of your face with pliers. Edit: Ugh, I hope you're a less foul creature these days. You should consider what you were and probably still are before criticizing someone for tracking their child's development. litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 07:55
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You must not have led a very exciting life Like I guess I am impressed that you think about me everyday it's kind of flattering
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Jun 19, 2017 07:59
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i hatched fully formed from a nutshell but at an early age was a victim of a tragic accident where my tongue got lodged inside my rear end in a top hat, to maximise my potential i was placed in the gifted and talented stream, where they taught me to roll around like a hoopsnake
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Jun 19, 2017 08:00
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Aaaaaanyway, on the topic of bilingualism: My claim that it results occasionally in delay is apparently not supported by the latest wave of research - seemingly the verbal milestones are typically met by both bilingual and non-bilingual people (but that would seem to be a rather complex set of claims; skimming seems to suggest that bilinguals are typically slightly later but within the same overall ranges; vocabulary counts sometimes mix the collected vocab of two languages set against a monolingual person's vocab in one and sometimes don't), though being a sequentially bilingual child seems to have an associated phenomenon of becoming selectively mute, and there is another more easily confused phenomenon of nonverbalism. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538870/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3305827/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322418/ http://www.human.cornell.edu/hd/outreach-extension/upload/lust.pdf http://courses.washington.edu/sop/Bilingualism_PrimerPediatricians.pdf http://www.lingref.com/isb/4/004ISB4.PDF In some ways this seems relevant to the thread, since: 1) The literature seems to want to simultaneously insist there's no relationship between intelligence and bilingualism while simultaneously showing that bilingualism offers quantifiable cognitive benefits 2) There are forms of social anxiety strongly linked to bilingualism seemingly resulting from the self-critical and self-aware realisations of your own linguistic limitations in different languages. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 08:00
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my parents compounded the pain by naming me mister anus
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Jun 19, 2017 08:05
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From what I see the op's kid is completely within the normal range of language development. Kids learn language at various speed and it's kinda early to declare that he's some kind of wunderkind.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:31
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rudatron posted:There's no reason to get hot and bothered over this, some of you guys need to just chill.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:37
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Alhazred posted:From what I see the op's kid is completely within the normal range of language development. Kids learn language at various speed and it's kinda early to declare that he's some kind of wunderkind. Absolutely. It could be something, it could be nothing. The fact is that none of us really know, and to say conclusively one way or the other you would need to observe the child in question over possibly a period of years to determine exactly what's going on. I don't think it can be reduced to the results of a single test. Hollismason posted:Wait you mean that the tests themselves which students take to be determined to be gifted may in fact have some kind of bias? This is a huge problem, as is the tendency of gifted programs to skew heavily white in general, but I believe it is a problem with the tests. They are imprecise and biased -- I think it would be ridiculous to not acknowledge that. The level of knowledge and ability that a child possesses is used to assess their capacity to be able to learn things quickly, but without proper support from parents and educators, that level of knowledge simply isn't going to be there, and likewise the fact that a child has a lot of knowledge doesn't necessarily mean they're gifted. The natural result is that you have gifted children who are not identified as such, and they're going to cause problems, because they're bored as gently caress all the time not because they know everything already, but because they learn new things very quickly (coincidentally, the same reason why skipping grades doesn't work). Poor and minority students bear the brunt of this problem, there is no question in my mind, and that's one of the reasons I think it's so important to figure out why these programs aren't working properly and how to fix them.
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Jun 19, 2017 10:30
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PT6A posted:Absolutely. It could be something, it could be nothing. The fact is that none of us really know, and to say conclusively one way or the other you would need to observe the child in question over possibly a period of years to determine exactly what's going on. I don't think it can be reduced to the results of a single test. I'm currently reading the Mismeasure of Man and it's interesting how the one who more or less invented the IQ tests never intended to divide kids into groups but to possibly pick up the kids who needed extra help.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:00
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this is a bad loving thread but let's try one decent post. Hollismason has an important point. "Gifted" programs that admit based on academic achievement are always going to be classist and racist. Even if we had standardized tests that perfectly measured academic achievement, academic success most closely correlates to family wealth, and which doesn't tend to be evenly distributed along racial lines. Brushing this off as a problem of the tests ignores the fact that this rich-kids-finish-first result repeats throughout all standardized tests at all levels, as well as other measures of academic success.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:17
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BrandorKP posted:At the end of 18th months the milestone for a child is to say 8 - 10 words. At the age my son had spoken vocabulary of over 100 words and was using sentence structure. Every parent thinks their kid is ~*~SpEcIaL~*~, Brandor.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:25
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Well, some people think babies are robots.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:34
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There is a deeply pitiful undercurrent ITT of hostility towards the idea that anyone can be exceptional in a way that's potentially advantageous, and it's manifesting in claims as absurd as "IQ doesn't exist" and "equality of outcome is desirable."
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Jun 19, 2017 15:13
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Hollismason posted:Wait are you saying there may be some sort of racial disparity in the school system. There definately is from what I saw. The student body where I went was diverse, with one pretty notable exception. I remember, Iranians, Vietnamese, South Americans, etc. I just took a look at a year book to double check and one specific group is definately and rather notably absent. That's a monstrous and racist thing that needs changed.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:25
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I know I'm coming in in the middle here, so sorry if you've already answered this but BrandorKP, you have an 18 month old, or did? How old is your kid now? What are you doing in terms of development? In what environment?
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Jun 19, 2017 15:31
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the trump tutelage posted:There is a deeply pitiful undercurrent ITT of hostility towards the idea that anyone can be exceptional in a way that's potentially advantageous, and it's manifesting in claims as absurd as "IQ doesn't exist" and "equality of outcome is desirable." hey cool it's the trump poster here to tell us his cool and interesting ideas about phrenology
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Jun 19, 2017 15:34
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the trump tutelage posted:There is a deeply pitiful undercurrent ITT of hostility towards the idea that anyone can be exceptional in a way that's potentially advantageous, and it's manifesting in claims as absurd as "IQ doesn't exist" and "equality of outcome is desirable." No one is advocating a Harrison Bergeron scenario here
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Jun 19, 2017 15:36
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do not post in threads about primary education if you have ever been probated for saying it's cool to gently caress children
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Jun 19, 2017 15:37
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Wait what?
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Jun 19, 2017 15:38
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Who What Now posted:Wait what? trump tutelage
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Jun 19, 2017 15:41
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Tokamak posted:Even if you solve the social problem there is still going to be some variance among students (even if isn't anywhere near as stark as it is today). Tailoring activities to the strengths and weaknesses of each child is simply good pedagogy. It is pretty clear that the issue in the article is funding everything else, and not so much the program itself. I agree, I'd be interested in discussing it. Tracking vs differentiation basically. The school district I teach in (which is pretty poor) doesn't do much more than identify gifted students. There aren't any special programs for those kids and there's barely an honors program, and honors programs != gifted programs anyway. So basically, our gifted kids are in the general population. I have a high percentage of gifted kids in my classes compared to the school at large, and my kids largely don't feel challenged in their other classes. It's a tough problem to solve though. I see a lot of cool differentiation in projects from other teachers at my school, but I don't think it's consistent among subjects yet.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:50
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I think this was already mentioned - a problem in teacher understanding and resource allocation even in well-off school districts often arises when students have "double difference" - dyslexia and giftedness, etc.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:53
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Cease to Hope posted:do not post in threads about primary education if you have ever been probated for saying it's cool to gently caress children I also loath Trump so
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Jun 19, 2017 15:56
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the trump tutelage posted:I have never said it was okay to abuse children. No, you just said that acceptance of homosexuality was a valid slippery slope that would inevitably lead to the acceptance of pedophilia. So what you did say is arguably just as bad.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:03
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Who What Now posted:Every parent thinks their kid is ~*~SpEcIaL~*~, Brandor. Do you think that I started this thread ignorant of the tremondous amount of poo poo I'd catch for it?
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Jun 19, 2017 16:06
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Who What Now posted:No, you just said that acceptance of homosexuality was a valid slippery slope that would inevitably lead to the acceptance of pedophilia. So what you did say is arguably just as bad. What I said is that arguments used to normalize homosexuality (e.g. "I was born this way," "I can't help who I'm attracted to," "I can't change it even if I wanted to,") are equally valid for pedophiles, and it only falls apart (and does fall apart) you try to use those arguments to legitimize sexual predation as opposed to relations between consenting adults. However, those arguments don't magically become invalid because they're being used by a class of people you dislike, which is why I was objecting to Pick's claim that pedos "appropriated" the language. If, from that, you think I'm pro-child abuse, or you think I'm saying pro-LGBTQ policies inevitably lead to acceptance of pedophilia, then you're a wilful idiot. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 16:15
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I didn't think there could be anything sadder than a 30-35-year-old man defining himself by his childhood experiences, but derailing that thread to defend a dumb argument in another thread is even worse. How does contemporary definition of "giftedness" differ from the understanding current in the 80s-90s when most of us would have been in school?
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Jun 19, 2017 16:33
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I'm going to defend myself if I'm accused of being pro-child abuse. In Ontario, "giftedness" is defined as as “an unusually advanced degree of general intellectual ability that requires differentiated learning experiences of a depth and breadth beyond those normally provided.” A gifted student learns and integrates knowledge more quickly than their peers, and so benefit from an accelerated curriculum -- not just more units or topics, but more depth and detail in any given unit of study. Skill deficits typically include organizational skills, social skills, and time management skills. Differentiation helps, but any teacher worth their salt is differentiating as much as possible all the time. The trouble with IEPs and the IPRC process here in Ontario is that you either need highly-engaged parents, a student with highly-disruptive behaviour, or an extremely astute teacher, in order to secure any kind of formal diagnosis for an exceptionality. A kid may be technically gifted, but if their parents arent going to advocate for them, and their behaviour isn't extreme enough to warrant admin intervention, they're going to coast along not reaching their potential. At a high level they're not much different than a kid with ADD/ADHD or a disengaged learner in terms of their classroom needs and potential behavioural outcomes, except that the behaviour stems from boredom as a consequence of performing above standard rather than boredom as a consequence of frustration or apathy. The diagnosis is skewed by the aforementioned parent/student/teacher factors but it ought not to be dismissed as bougie nonsense because it would be iniquitous to not help these children reach their potential, and equity has replaced equality in education. e. To answer your question more directly, I think the general sense has moved towards giftedness being of the same kind as other exceptionalities which typically carry negative connotations (e.g. ASD, language impairment), with the students displaying clear-cut needs and requiring specific classroom accommodations. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 16:57
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