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Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



PREFACE: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INVEST ANY MONEY INTO CRYPTOCURRENCY MINING. IF YOU DO SO YOU ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID AND YOU WILL BE MOCKED RELENTLESSLY.

On scams and coinery: Cryptocurrency is peak free market internet libertarianism. Scams happen. You'll likely be hit by at least one without you even knowing it. Cash out early, cash out often. Keep as little cryptocurrency as possible. Factor in the potential of losing a week or two of mining once in a while when estimating profitability to see if it's still worth it.

This is basically a negative-sum game. There's no good way to get anything out of this unless you have something like a GPU array for machine learning you didn't pay for that you're not doing machine learning on anymore. Also most of this OP is so horrible out of dated you just shouldn't pay attention to it.


that's you in the middle, dork

It took us ten pages of people in the GPU thread saying "we should really start a cryptocurrency mining thread so as to not gunk up this one" to get to this point. This isn't the GBS or YOSPOS threads -- this is an offshoot of the GPU Megathread for the technical side of mining and turning your cheap socialist hydroelectricity and the hardware you already have into money that may or may not disappear into the ether once in a while. Please keep that in mind before threadshitting.

Various bits of this OP were contributed by craig588, especially the Nvidia-specific deep dive parts. I've tried to keep as much of the details from his writeup intact in their original form.


What is cryptocurrency?

Cryptocurrency, or "magic internet money", is a type of digital-only asset brought into existence by a reusable proof-of-work scheme that uses complex cryptographic hash functions to "solve" mathematical problems. The "solution" leads to the generation of units of cryptocurrency. This is referred to as "mining."

The first cryptocurrency to gain any attention and that is currently to other cryptocurrencies what the US dollar or Euro are to actual currencies is Bitcoin. Mining Bitcoin at this point is considered beyond ineffective -- the overwhelming majority of bitcoin mining power is tied up in ASIC mining farms, primarily in China. The difficulty of mining bitcoin on GPUs versus on ASICs is high enough that there is effectively no point.


So, why do people use bitcoin?

Bitcoin and its ilk are designed to be decentralized. This has led many people to believe it is impossible to trace transactions; in reality, it is only an added step of difficulty, but a fairly effective one. This makes bitcoin incredibly useful for illegal transactions on the darknet and money laundering, which is not why you should be reading this thread and is not something we can help you with.

Most of the other reasons for it are anti-big bank, anti-government, terrible terrible speculative investment, and stockholm syndrome (to the moooooon).

But this thread isn't for any of that. If that's your thing, GBS would like a word with you.


Okay, so why make this thread?


ideally I could have posted a "when i'm" video here showing the price volatility and resulting suicide notes on /r/bitcoin but I couldn't find one

Some of the non-bitcoin cryptocurrencies (altcoins), notably Ethereum, is still incredible viable to mine with GPUs, due to the cryptographic hash algorithms used. ASICs are fast at things like SHA-256 but bad when you need a lot of memory for something like scrypt, which GPUs can handle more effficiently. The viability of Ethereum mining is one of the main reasons that as of when I'm writing this post, the prices of RX 400/500 graphics cards are so goddamn high. People building mining rigs and mining farms (also known as people with more money than sense) are buying them up by the shopping cart load, and right now, it's starting to look like the GTX 1060 and possibly 1070 are next (as of december 2017, lol yeah this is the case).

Nicehash's website has a profitability calculator. Plunk in your graphics card and your electricity cost in currency/kWh and it'll estimate an average best case scenario of how much you'll be paid for mining per day, how much it'll cost in electricity, and overall profitability.

Anything much older than an R9 290 or GTX 970 is simply not effective for this. You could probably do it on a 7970 (I know there are people who do) but you're getting something in the neighbourhood of 3/4 of an R9 290 for the same wattage. Just something to keep in mind.


poo poo, that's like $150 a month on my GTX 1070!

IN THEORY. Consider this section the list of caveats.

This is assuming that the bubble doesn't pop (which it will at some point), that you aren't paying electricity (my GTX 1070 with the power limit cranked and running at 2050 MHz is eating 170 W doing this, and generating a fair bit of waste heat), that you can sell the bitcoin you get (not really that hard, but again, bubbles), that you already have the equipment to do your mining without spending any money to start.

Considering the price to actually purchase and build mining rigs, I will state this again: DO NOT INVEST MONEY IN THIS. This is something that's a neat side thing to get into if your power is cheap, you already have all the kit, and you can get rid of the heat effectively.

It's also super important to not become a cryptocurrency cultist over this. It's a bubble, and if you're getting into it, you need to keep that in your mind at all times. It will pop. Don't be one of those people on /r/bitcoin who needs to be directed to the stickied list of suicide hotline numbers when the price drops $700 overnight. (No, that's not a joke, that is a real thing that happens there all the goddamn time.)


I am a normal person. How do I get into this?

This section was mostly written by craig588, and adapted ever so slightly to fit in by me.

First things first: you need a bitcoin wallet. I use Coinbase since it's a reputable cloud bitcoin wallet provider -- just go to https://www.coinbase.com and sign up for an account. You'll get a bitcoin wallet address -- this is what you give the Nicehash miner in order to dump your bitcoin payouts into.

Second, you need a miner. You used to have to know lots of technical crap, be watching markets, and carefully choose what you were going to mine. Thatís changed with Nicehash, since youíre not explicitly mining anything. It acts as a broker, selling mining power to whoever bids the most, automatically switching buyers, targets, and mining algorithms when better offers come in. Iíve seen it change mining operations every couple of minutes, though for the most part it'll weigh the best offer against the efficacy of different mining algorithms for your hardware. Thereís certainly someone earning more money off of it than youíre getting paid (otherwise, why would they be paying for mining time?) but the benefit of not having to know anything makes it attractive. Nicehash doesn't give you a bunch of weird altcoins, just a bitcoin equivalent payout.

Third, you need time. Magic internet money is a slow going process, but after a while you'll see the results for sure. I (Kazinsal) use the GTX 1070 in my desktop to mine while I'm asleep and at work for a total of about 16-18 hours a day and that pulls in about $4.50 USD. This isn't much, but I live in British Columbia, where the hydroelectricity is incredibly inexpensive and the conversion rate between USD and CAD is "multiply by 1.35, then cry because your canadian pesos are worthless". My electricity costs per day for that mining is about $0.24 USD in comparison ($0.08 USD/kWh).


I am normal and very lazy. How do I get into this?

  1. Gauge profitability. Nicehash provides a handy profitability calculator, though it does assume that you're investing in cards (which is dumb and bad, don't do it). https://www.nicehash.com/?p=calc
  2. Get a Coinbase wallet. Sign up for Coinbase, and get yourself a bitcoin wallet. Not an ethereum wallet, not a litecoin wallet. Old fashioned to-the-moon bitcoin.
  3. Install the Nicehash miner. Install (grab it from https://www.nicehash.com/), fire it up, throw in your bitcoin wallet address, and run the built-in Benchmark. Change any appearance settings you want if that's your thing.
  4. Sell your mining power. Hit "Start", and let it go. That's it! You're making bitcoins! Probably!

I want to cash out my bitcoins into something I can use for weird japanese tentacle porno games.

craig588 posted:

Right now Iím using gyft.com to cash out to Amazon credit which for most people is as good as cash. Steam also takes bitcoins now through Bitpay. I have so much Steam wallet funds I havenít tried purchasing anything that way yet though.

In the US you can cash out using Coinbase directly. QuadrigaCX seems to be the best way to cash out into CAD in Canada. They used to be kind of sketchy but they've solidified and don't need anything weird like your passport to make the money flow, but you need to be moving decent amounts in order to make it happen fluidly.


I've been into this before and want the crazy technical details. Lay it on me!

This is all out of date and involves the old NiceHash Legacy miner. The new miner sucks less and is basically follow the wizard and start laundering money for the triads making magic internet money. You can still input some of this weird stuff though.

This section was entirely written by craig588. I'm posting it here with only grammatical fixes because he knows a lot more than I do.

craig588 posted:

I like to ignore Nicehash completely so I have some extra options set up, you only have to do it once and then you can forget about them though so itís not too bad. Under Settings→Devices/Algorithms click on your GPU and itíll give you a list of all of the miners in the box below. I have Neoscrypt(experimental) and X11Gost(ccminer_alexis) unchecked, they were unchecked by default for me, but just in case theyíre turned on by default for other configurations youíll want to check if theyíre actually turning in mining results when youíre actually running the miner, for me they reported a super high earning, but werenít actually turning in anything. Now for the magic that lets you ignore it, for all of the ccminer algorithms, add ď--intensity= 17Ē without quotes to the extra launch parameters box. For all of the excavator algorithms add ď-ct 1Ē to their extra launch parameters. Documentation seems bad to poor, but from what Iíve been able to discover in reading forum posts and the official documentation these are the best settings for lowering the priority of the miners low enough that you can still use your computer without significant lag. Iím able to watch videos, view web sites, play 2d games and play light 3d games with the Nicehash miners running in the background with those settings while it made my PC unusable without any extra settings. For intense 3d stuff I still need to pause it manually.


I only know Nvidia cards so these are the tips I can cover, someone else will have to fill me in with AMD tips. If you have a Maxwell card youíre in luck for a performance boost. When Nvidia cards run Cuda on consumer model cards they drop the card down to P2 state while P0 is the highest performing normal 3d game state. That means that the memory is running 1GHz slower than stock when itís mining and memory overclocking is usually the best performance to power overclock you can do. Dumping, editing, and flashing video bioses is out of the scope of what I want to cover here, but I changed my 980s P2 state memory speed to 3602 from 3004. Youíll use a little bit more power but memory uses so little power you should come out ahead in mining performance. Thereís tools for everything so itís not too hard to do Maxwell bios work now.

Hereís the cool modded Nvflash tool that lets you flash unsigned bioses http://www.overclock.net/t/1521334/...0-980ti-titan-x
Get Maxwell BIOS Tweaker from here https://www.techpowerup.com/downloa...i-bios-tweaker/
To edit the P2 memory speed itís all the way under the clock states tab. Stock is 3505, but I know my 980 was stable to well over 7.2GHz memory so I felt safe going to 3602. If you donít want to overclock at all set it to match your P0 state, probably 3505, but I think for pretty much every single 970 and 980 3602 should be no issue. Match the P0 state to the same 3602 if you do increase it in the P2 state so you donít get anything weird going on with it slowing down in games.

Dump, edit and flash your bios, donít use one you found on the internet for your card. Itís probably fine, but also itís so easy to do it yourself and know itís right itís not worth messing with other peoples dumps.

Unfortunately Nvidia strengthened up the DRM for the Pascal version of the Nvflash tool so we canít flash edited bioses to them anymore. Thereís a force P0 state option in Nicehash, but it doesnít seem to work for me, maybe if you have luckier computers than me itíll work for you and you can skip all this bios editing and flashing.

If someone has any AMD cryptomining experience and wants to do a writeup, please contribute. I will happily include it in the OP.


How do I use this rip off hipsters?




Will I make any money off this?




OP update history:
2017-06-20: Original post by Kazinsal and craig588.
2017-06-23: Added rigberries
2017-09-16: Added happy rollercoaster bitcoin gif
2017-12-08: NICEHASH IS DEAD, BUTTS FOR THE BUTT GOD, VTC FOR THE VTC THRONE
2017-12-21: Nicehash is risen (also a warning about cryptoscamming)

Kazinsal fucked around with this message at Jan 21, 2018 around 11:40

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Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



I have a few questions

my 1070 made me $45 profit last week. Overclocking the memory on it gave me a free 20% and I lowered the power target to 80%. How do i cash out with coinbase?

I have been leaving on a 7970 at my office where power is paid by the building management and it makes maybe $3 a day which if i was paying for power in that city would be like a 1.70 profit. Super not worth it, dont do it

I am upgrading to a 1080ti so I can game at 4k, what kind of $ can i expect at the current rates?

Fauxtool fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 22:39

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


I've been getting like $8-10 a day on the 1080 Ti, also with overclocked memory. So far I've just been using gyft to get gift cards.

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



so cashing out on coinbase at least for people in the US is stupid simple.

I linked my online banking and sold at the market rate. It took about 10s to set up and 2s to sell it. The deposit wont clear for a week but thats lightning fast when bitcoin is involved

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Fauxtool posted:

I have a few questions

my 1070 made me $45 profit last week. Overclocking the memory on it gave me a free 20% and I lowered the power target to 80%. How do i cash out with coinbase?

I have been leaving on a 7970 at my office where power is paid by the building management and it makes maybe $3 a day which if i was paying for power in that city would be like a 1.70 profit. Super not worth it, dont do it

I am upgrading to a 1080ti so I can game at 4k, what kind of $ can i expect at the current rates?

Coinbase does direct bank transfer (deposit and withdrawal) in the US: https://support.coinbase.com/custom...or-us-customers

Also god drat that's some expensive power.

For the 1080 Ti, Nicehash says an average of $8.80 USD/day for 24/7 mining. Subtract the cost of about 250W * 24 hours = 6 kWh of electricity for theoretical running costs (unless you crank the power limit and voltage, then throw in what your actual power usage is in place of 250W. Power usage is pretty much whatever your TDP is * your power limit percentage if you've changed it (so my GTX 1070 at 112% power limit is 150*1.12 = 168 W theoretically, and in most of the mining software it's between 160 and 168 W).

Enos Cabell
Nov 3, 2004


Started running nicehash off and on last Wednesday on a 1080, and cashed out a $35 gift card today. Not a bad deal for now if you've already got the equipment.

Comfy Fleece Sweater
Apr 2, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


I'd really like to add component usage to the calculation. Like, is there any hard info about what mining bitcoinz does to your GPU, CPU and so on? These fans are spinnin nigga

craig588
Nov 19, 2005



Virtually nothing if you keep track of thermals. I've run GPUs and CPUs 24/7 for months at a time doing other stuff before bitcoin mining was a thing. I lowered the overclock on my 1080 to 1974MHz to keep the temperature under 75C because the 24/7 load of mining is harder than games that tend to swing demands all over. I was barely seeing 70C at 2050MHz in games. Nvidia rates their cards for up to 91C, but they're also rating those temperatures at stock speeds so I don't feel like letting my 2050MHz 1080 see 80C.

There's also people who bought used 290s after they'd been used for years for mining when people were panic selling them during one of the other bitcoin crashes and those people haven't had bad experiences.

Technically I did have a fan die a couple days into starting trying out mining, but it was a fan that already failed once that I tried rebuilding 2 years ago by packing the bearings with grease to make it stop vibrating and coincidentally it died right when I tried out mining.

Don't CPU mine, unless your power is free you'll only lose money.

My stats: I'm making about 60 dollars a week from a 1080 and a 980 against about 17 dollars a week in power use.

craig588 fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 23:16

Comfy Fleece Sweater
Apr 2, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


Another tip - Ether, which is the most popular crypto to mine at this time, will switch to proof of stake instead of proof of work at some point in the next year, with a planned "hybrid PoW/PoS" switch in between.

So mining eth will drastically drop profitability once that happens, same as Bitcoin.

What I mean is, unless you got money to burn, probably don't invest in mining rigs unless you're sure you can use the cards after the boom is over.

Also most new coins are starting with a Proof of Stake model instead of mining. Turns out they've realized all this wasted lectricity might be bad for the world.

Unless you believe in cryptocurrency overall and can switch to something else. Personally I'm curious about SiaCoins and I'm mining those too...

Tldr: if u gonna mine, get in now bitch

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



One of the neat things about Nicehash is that it doesn't really tell you exactly what you're mining (but it's probably eth). Everyone could make a magical switch to some pre-switch fork of eth and Nicehash could handle that fairly gracefully in theory, since you're selling mining power and not selling etherium you're pool mining.

e: Also they've been saying they're going to convert to their new proof of stake system Soon(tm) for like, two years now, and apparently other altcoin devs don't even believe it exists on paper.

Kazinsal fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 23:39

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


With Nicehash my RX 580 mines Eth like 80% of the time but also mines Zcash sometimes, my 1070 and 1080 Ti will mine all sorts of different stuff but Zcash the most. Unlike the 1070 the 1080 Ti will never mine Eth because it's relatively better at other stuff.

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



in the OP it talks about making the different algorithms not max out the gpu so you can still use the computer.
It covers the ccminer and excavator ones but not the DaggerHashimoto (ethminer) which is what my 1070 seems to spend the most time mining. How do i make that less system intensive?

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



I haven't tweaked Nicehash for my 1070 yet, that's why I do most of my mining while I'm at work or asleep.

As for algos being used it seems to be about 50% DaggerHashimoto (Eth) / 49% Equishash (Zcash) / 1% other algos for me on the 1070. Haven't tried plugging my 290 in yet.

Comfy Fleece Sweater
Apr 2, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


I only use my Pc for games

Now I use it most for mining

Im thinking of buying a Nintendo Switch with the profits of my tricked out gaming PC that I never use for gaming

Living la video loca

craig588
Nov 19, 2005



Fauxtool posted:

in the OP it talks about making the different algorithms not max out the gpu so you can still use the computer.
It covers the ccminer and excavator ones but not the DaggerHashimoto (ethminer) which is what my 1070 seems to spend the most time mining. How do i make that less system intensive?

I haven't been able to figure out how to do it with that one, it might be straight up unsupported.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~perfect~
battlebrother





I set my (msi gaming x) 1070's power limit to 70 and temp limit to 70 because I don't want this stupid thing burning out on me buttmining. Clocked up +75 which is 25 less than what's stable for this power limit so I don't have border cases loving me over.

Currently "making" .011 BTC a week. I hope I can at least buy a new PSU before the bubble pops.


Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

I only use my Pc for games

Now I use it most for mining

Im thinking of buying a Nintendo Switch with the profits of my tricked out gaming PC that I never use for gaming

Living la video loca

Fruit Chewy
Feb 13, 2012


My 1080ti apparently does around $10/day on nicehash with a super modest OC. I've got a huge aftermarket heatsink (accelero xtreme iii) coming in because I'm not happy with the load noise while gaming of the ACX cooler so maybe with that monstrosity I'll actually feel comfortable letting it mine like 18 hours a day that I'm not using it.

Also I've been flipping 580s for like a week now and you would be goddamn shocked how little money you make after all those ebay/paypal/shipping fees even when you're selling $250 cards for $475.

Edit: ALSO I've been running this random modified version of nicehash because it added dual mining eth+sia for nvidia cards (which isn't worth doing on my card it turns out) but it also happened to add 'ewbf' - another equihash miner - which is somehow like 15% faster than excavator on my card. Worth looking into if you're doing majority equihash on an nvidia card.

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



The launch parameters are super helpful. I can even still do some light gaming like darkest dungeon. I just unchecked the ethminer since the other ones are nearly as profitable and being able to use my computer is more important than a few extra cents per day

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

Protect our Friends!

Anti-Poaching Taskforce
Japari Park Service


I put a 1070 under water. Gets about 2.0 mBTC a day via nicehash

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Thanks for the heads up, Fruit Chewy. Might look into that since it's possible that zcash could be more stable long-term as a mining opportunity than eth (see previously-mentioned proof of work vs proof of stake problem).

Reminder to all: The Steam summer sale starts soon (rumour is the 22nd), and Steam takes magic internet money via Bitpay now, so if you're taking part in the sale you can skip the "turn it into real money" step there.

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



If you buy games you can never play them because you are busy mining. If you buy a second rig capable of gaming, that means it could mine too. Help I'm trapped in a loop and my room is really warm

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Yeah I have multiple gaming rigs that are all mining and I'm gonna start playing on a PS4. I already was a weirdo with multiple rigs while being a casual gamer though so I might as well make some ROI.

Or you can turn down the intensity of your miners and play older games while you mine, I've seen some people doing that

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

Protect our Friends!

Anti-Poaching Taskforce
Japari Park Service


Fauxtool posted:

If you buy games you can never play them because you are busy mining. If you buy a second rig capable of gaming, that means it could mine too. Help I'm trapped in a loop and my room is really warm



e: Why isn't a thing

WrenP-Complete
Jul 27, 2012



PerrineClostermann posted:



e: Why isn't a thing

Someone would have to pay for the emote, I'm assuming in non .

ArgumentatumE.C.T.
Nov 5, 2016


PerrineClostermann posted:



e: Why isn't a thing

too many things are all too funny not to be it, so we picked none of them

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Prediction: this thread will end in a glorious blaze of redtext avatars

and possibly also a literal blaze as someone overdraws their wiring

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Paul MaudDib posted:

Prediction: this thread will end in a glorious blaze of redtext avatars

and possibly also a literal blaze as someone overdraws their wiring

The year is 2018. The place is SH/SC. The cryptocurrency thread has burned to the ground, a spark ignited by ghetto mining rigs full of RX 580s each powered by their own offbrand PS_ON jumpered power supplies, and an argument over whether or not that's up to code. The GPU megathread looks on and mocks. Lowtax laughs, as the avatar storm has purchased him yet another dinner at The Keg. I am never allowed to start a megathread again.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


I also had really bad results with ccminer-alexis in general, it reports a lot higher than a pool actually sees it.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 06:16

tehinternet
Feb 14, 2005
Weclome 2 teh Internt

Ground floor on this loving awful thread.

I was planning on upgrading to a 1070 anyways (I have a 2k monitor @60hz, so that would push ultra pretty easy); is there one that is better than the others for this?

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


I take it attempting this on a 780ti is a waste of time?

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


MaxxBot posted:

Yeah I have multiple gaming rigs that are all mining and I'm gonna start playing on a PS4. I already was a weirdo with multiple rigs while being a casual gamer though so I might as well make some ROI.

Or you can turn down the intensity of your miners and play older games while you mine, I've seen some people doing that

I bought a GTX 1060 3 GB from MicroCenter for $150 (minus $5 coupon) so I can use my 1080 for mining (other coins, not Eth) while I'm playing older games. I play a lot of TF2, which doesn't even come close to saturating my 1060 let alone my 1080. GSync is great here.

I've been replaying Witcher 3 lately, that's more intense so I use the 1080 there.

When my system is idle, the extra 1060 can be ganged up with the 1080 for a ~40% improvement in hashrate on my gaming box.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 04:07

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


The Lord Bude posted:

I take it attempting this on a 780ti is a waste of time?

Look at benchmarks for the Radeon 7950/280 and extrapolate, that's roughly a similar card. You would probably make like $3-4 a day and spend $1-2 of that in electricity. I wouldn't do that while you are running the A/C unless that room is shut off so the heat can't escape into the rest of the house.

Reminder: in a datacenter you double the expected cost of power, because you need to air-condition that heat back out. Factor that into your costs if you are running A/C.

Fruit Chewy posted:

Edit: ALSO I've been running this random modified version of nicehash because it added dual mining eth+sia for nvidia cards (which isn't worth doing on my card it turns out) but it also happened to add 'ewbf' - another equihash miner - which is somehow like 15% faster than excavator on my card. Worth looking into if you're doing majority equihash on an nvidia card.

Be sure to watch what is actually reported in the pool/etc because some of the alternate miners don't actually work as well as they report they do (eg average 60m hashrate is half/less of what it says in the console). Not as much of an issue with Nicehash, but more of an issue when mining directly.

I don't trust NiceHash not to let some bitlord run a trojan kernel given its access to VRAM and the terrible loving memory segmentation in VRAM world. A zero-day in the driver is serious business given the kernel-mode access that device drivers have, and you are running a program that downloads arbitrary internet programs and gives them direct access to the NVIDIA drivers. It would be the Cryptolocker attack of the century, and you know everyone there has bitcoins.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 04:31

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



I haven't read much into the state of memory protection on GPUs but I imagine that it's as bad as early memory protection and segmentation on microcomputers, if not worse.

Though it's pretty hard to beat the 8086's "no protection, just a shift-and-add for windowing into a 20-bit address space, but we'll call it memory segmentation" scheme. Or the 286's "we took that, extended it another 4 bits, and separated user and supervisor but now you have to put the machine in a new mode that breaks compatibility with everything else oh and you can't get out of it without warm resetting the CPU have fuuuuun".

(The last bit there caused Microsoft's engineers to tell IBM to make the PC/AT warm reset faster so they could use the warm reset to drop out of 16-bit protected mode back into 16-bit real-address mode by trampolining off their own code and not the BIOS.)

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Kazinsal posted:

I haven't read much into the state of memory protection on GPUs but I imagine that it's as bad as early memory protection and segmentation on microcomputers, if not worse.

Consider the following: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...742287615000559

NVIDIA's drivers are a little better about not allowing super dumb poo poo but overall GPUs are designed around a "high performance computation" model. For example on non-ECC NVIDIA GPUs, hardware ties into the host in kernel mode for performance, memory is not zero'd between reallocation between programs, etc. And yes, in general it's like working on a microcontroller sometimes, boundaries and fault conditions that you expect in CPU world may or may not exist. This isn't a model built around an assumption of possible bad actors, it's close to the metal by design.

Would you really notice an OpenCL/CUDA thread quietly cryptolockering your files in the background, and stopping when it sees logging/tracing/mouse movement/etc? Most people aren't locked down that far.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 05:10

Col.Kiwi
Dec 28, 2004
And the grave digger puts on the forceps...

Fruit Chewy posted:


Edit: ALSO I've been running this random modified version of nicehash because it added dual mining eth+sia for nvidia cards (which isn't worth doing on my card it turns out) but it also happened to add 'ewbf' - another equihash miner - which is somehow like 15% faster than excavator on my card. Worth looking into if you're doing majority equihash on an nvidia card.
So what is this modified version called?

craig588
Nov 19, 2005



Paul MaudDib posted:

Consider the following: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...742287615000559

NVIDIA's drivers are a little better about not allowing super dumb poo poo but overall GPUs are designed around a "high performance computation" model. For example on non-ECC NVIDIA GPUs, hardware ties into the host in kernel mode for performance, memory is not zero'd between reallocation between programs, etc. And yes, in general it's like working on a microcontroller sometimes, boundaries and fault conditions that you expect in CPU world may or may not exist. This isn't a model built around an assumption of possible bad actors, it's close to the metal by design.

Would you really notice an OpenCL/CUDA thread quietly cryptolockering your files in the background, and stopping when it sees logging/tracing/mouse movement/etc? Most people aren't locked down that far.

This is a good reminder not to do it on important systems. It also reminded me to make sure my important files are backed up, but for my game computers I feel alright about having to format them.

Malware is where the real money is, people running Nicehash would probably have some bitcoins to pay ransoms and not running mining on your own PC is the most direct way to free power.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


craig588 posted:

This is a good reminder not to do it on important systems. It also reminded me to make sure my important files are backed up, but for my game computers I feel alright about having to format them.

Malware is where the real money is, people running Nicehash would probably have some bitcoins to pay ransoms and not running mining on your own PC is the most direct way to free power.

The risk is that once infected a single system can spread the infection. It cryptos a share or drops another exploit on your fileserver, what now?

If you're going to do that poo poo you should absolutely lock it down to a VLAN so it can't touch anything outside.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 05:40

craig588
Nov 19, 2005



I hope it's not smart enough and tries to throw a ransom when it finishes encrypting my 512GB SSD instead of finishing my whole 12TB NAS.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Anyone have experience with powered PCI-E risers? I'm trying to find a reputable brand as I hear that a lot of them have QC issues.

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Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Paul MaudDib posted:

The risk is that once infected a single system can spread the infection. It cryptos a share or drops another exploit on your fileserver, what now?

If you're going to do that poo poo you should absolutely lock it down to a VLAN so it can't touch anything outside.

Yeah, people need to generally take the possibility of crypto-ransomware very seriously. We had a scare at work recently where a user asked me "hey this dialog looks kind of sketchy and I've never seen it before can you look at it" and my first thing was logging into the switch and removing the data VLAN from their port, even though it turned out to be nothing.

The idea of CUDA or OpenCL based ransomware scares the poo poo out of me to be honest.

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