Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«122 »
  • Locked thread
DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Yeah Selanne, Recchi and Kariya should all be in pretty easily.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Spring Break My Heart
Feb 15, 2012


Andreychuk would be an embarrassing induction.

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


Zodijackylite posted:

I would also like a lot of good players for under market value, but I really hope the Rangers go wild in trying to acquire good players under age 27. Considering the going rate for guys like Hall, Eberle, and Hamonic, I'm hoping they work some magic with someone like Galchenyuk or Mackinnon or Landeskog.

Please no more old guys. Shattenkirk is cool because he'll turn 35 at the very end of a seven year deal, which is also two years after the CBA expires. They've got the cap room to sign him in the 7m range.

i'd love to pull in one of those guys also, but i'm not enamored of the price we'd have to pay to do so. if next year's draft is as good as they say it is i don't want to drop a first, and i don't think we really have anyone on the roster that is worth moving with the exception of hayes*, and even if we moved him we'd still need a stopgap to fill one of our center positions. an old dude who can still play on a short deal would be a good way to fill out one of those C holes, i think.

that being said neither gagner are bonino are very old

*i, personally, would like to trade chris krieder for value but i think that's unrealistic. the organization obviously loves him and sees him as a cornerstone guy. i personally don't think he contributes very much and would be a prime sell high candidate, but i strongly doubt that will happen.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


Spring Break My Heart posted:

Andreychuk would be an embarrassing induction.

He's 14th all time in goals, and 29th all time in points. He belongs in the hall.

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


Spring Break My Heart posted:

Andreychuk would be an embarrassing induction.

yeah don't elaborate on that statement or anything, just throw it out there and expect people not to argue. that's the good and cool way to make points

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

Spring Break My Heart posted:

Andreychuk would be an embarrassing induction.

Yeah he's a compiler, whoopee 600 goals and he had 53 once, then 41 and 40 despite playing in the most ridiculous scoring era of all time. Never hit 100 points either. Come on.

Kariya is a PPG player and he was a dead puck era guy. Andreychuk? 0.816

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 17, 2007

surfin usa

its extremely easy to be top 15 all time in goals and 30 in points just by playing a long time, which is why everyone does it

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

Andreychuk was a one dimensional winger whose best seasons were spent tapping in back door power play goals from Lafontaine and Gilmour. That said I do not know if this qualifies him for the hall of fame as I do not understand how the hall of fame works.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Do you not want your hotdog?
(pause)
I'll keep it for you.
(pause)
I thought you were going to leave me.

Fun Shoe

bewbies posted:

Andreychuk was a one dimensional winger whose best seasons were spent tapping in back door power play goals from Lafontaine and Gilmour. That said I do not know if this qualifies him for the hall of fame as I do not understand how the hall of fame works.

Cam Neely is in, so yes

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


bewbies posted:

Andreychuk was a one dimensional winger whose best seasons were spent tapping in back door power play goals from Lafontaine and Gilmour. That said I do not know if this qualifies him for the hall of fame as I do not understand how the hall of fame works.

here's how it works: arbitrarily, just like any similar thing in any realm

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

Ginette Reno posted:

Cam Neely is in, so yes

neely was way, way better, and also sea bass.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


bewbies posted:

neely was way, way better, and also sea bass.

He would have had much better numbers if he'd stayed healthy, but that's a big if sadly

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


bewbies posted:

neely was way, way better

[citation needed]

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

a false posted:

[citation needed]

50 goals in 49 games and also actually made all star teams, four times in fact.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


bewbies posted:

50 goals in 49 games and also actually made all star teams, four times in fact.

All star teams are meaningless bullshit and even if they mattered, Andreychuk played in 2 all star games.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

El Gallinero Gros posted:

All star teams are meaningless bullshit

I see you're confusing the all star game with all star teams, I'll let you rethink this post.

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

HEY LITTLE SIDNEY WANT TO SEE MY CORSI?


Neely was a bruin though so he shouldn't have been let in

also bad front office manager

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



El Gallinero Gros posted:

All star teams are meaningless bullshit

So is the Hall of Fame.

And also All Star Teams are not All Star Games.

ThinkTank
Oct 23, 2007



bewbies posted:

Andreychuk was a one dimensional winger whose best seasons were spent tapping in back door power play goals from Lafontaine and Gilmour. That said I do not know if this qualifies him for the hall of fame as I do not understand how the hall of fame works.

Conversely, Cam Neely is a butt.

Andreychuk annoys me for coming back after the lockout instead of retiring after captaining Tampa to the cup. Did playing 1600 games really matter that much Dave?

He should probably be in the hall though. There's still something to be said for playing for a long time and being consistently good. Selanne and Alfredsson should be in long before him though.

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

bewbies posted:

I see you're confusing the all star game with all star teams, I'll let you rethink this post.

Would this be the same all star team that Alex Ovechkin was on twice in one season

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011

MENS REA? LOL MORE LIKE CHRIS REA AM I RITE

Lipstick Apathy

ThinkTank posted:

Conversely, Cam Neely is a butt.

Andreychuk annoys me for coming back after the lockout instead of retiring after captaining Tampa to the cup. Did playing 1600 games really matter that much Dave?

Eh if someone was willing to pay him to play hockey I am not gonna begrudge the guy coming back. Hockey is great! Nobody should retire until they are truly unable to play for medical reasons or because they can't find a contract.

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011

MENS REA? LOL MORE LIKE CHRIS REA AM I RITE

Lipstick Apathy

ElwoodCuse posted:

Would this be the same all star team that Alex Ovechkin was on twice in one season

He was both the best left and right winger that year what can you say.

ThinkTank
Oct 23, 2007



ElwoodCuse posted:

Would this be the same all star team that Alex Ovechkin was on twice in one season

Yes, just like when Pavel Bure won the Calder but failed to make the rookie all star team because it was (and still is) voted by position rather than just general Forward/Defence/Goalie categories.

Jordan7hm posted:

Eh if someone was willing to pay him to play hockey I am not gonna begrudge the guy coming back. Hockey is great! Nobody should retire until they are truly unable to play for medical reasons or because they can't find a contract.

There's very much something to be said for going out on top. In 05/06 he played half a season terribly then got waived. That's a pretty disappointing way to end a career considering he could've walked into the sunset holding the cup over his head.

ThinkTank fucked around with this message at Jun 26, 2017 around 15:27

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

ElwoodCuse posted:

Would this be the same all star team that Alex Ovechkin was on twice in one season

Correct.

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGpiAsISfyk

I had forgotten the weiner dog

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



ElwoodCuse posted:

Would this be the same all star team that Alex Ovechkin was on twice in one season

Was Ovechkin not both one of the best left and right wings that season?

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


bewbies posted:

I see you're confusing the all star game with all star teams, I'll let you rethink this post.

Since both are meaningless it doesn't matter, that won't be necessary.

I mean, I agree Neely was a fair bit better, I just think using any iteration of all star appearances is the dumbest way possible to prove it.

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011

MENS REA? LOL MORE LIKE CHRIS REA AM I RITE

Lipstick Apathy

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Since both are meaningless it doesn't matter, that won't be necessary.

I mean, I agree Neely was a fair bit better, I just think using any iteration of all star appearances is the dumbest way possible to prove it.

Yeah awards are dumb we should just rely on our memories to determine who was the best.

Nolan Yonkman was the best defenseman to ever wear a Habs uni. I base this largely on his sweet name.

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


bewbies posted:

50 goals in 49 games and also actually made all star teams, four times in fact.

so for a really brief peak, neely was a better player than andreychuk. i'd wager that andreychuk was the better player for at least 12 years

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Jordan7hm posted:

Nolan Yonkman was the best defenseman to ever wear a Habs uni. I base this largely on his sweet name.

I'd like to use this same reasoning to put Radek Bonk and Zarley Zalapski in the HoF.

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


bewbies posted:

Andreychuk was a one dimensional winger whose best seasons were spent tapping in back door power play goals from Lafontaine and Gilmour. That said I do not know if this qualifies him for the hall of fame as I do not understand how the hall of fame works.

also if you're going to use this argument and then say neely was that much better you should probably note that neely had ray bourque and adam oates playing alongside him during his best goal scoring years, who are 4th and 7th, respectively, all time in assists

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



Yeah but Neely is already in, we have the opportunity to make things better now.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe

a false posted:

so for a really brief peak, neely was a better player than andreychuk. i'd wager that andreychuk was the better player for at least 12 years

Well probably, I don't know how good Neely was after he didn't have knees anymore and retired.

Playing 1600 games or whatever andreychuk did is a terrific accomplishment that I'm not trying to minimize but arguing he was a better player than Neely is pretty stupid, and if you're going to go after guys who actually don't belong in the hall can we please start with Gillies?

In conclusion Geoff Sanderson belongs in the hall.

Spring Break My Heart
Feb 15, 2012


He was never the best player on his team or even his line (getting to play with Lafontaine, Turgeon and Gilmour). If he never played with Gilmour during Gilmour's best years than no one would care about him at all. He was terrible defensively and mediocre 5-on-5. For a guy who's case is 100% his goal scoring he only had 2 years in the top 10, both when Gilmour was carrying him, finishing 9th and 4th. He finished 9th and 16th in points and otherwise always out of the top 20 in scoring. He had a lot of really crappy 20 goal/30 point seasons at the end of his career where he'd get to much power play time, which added 120 goals and 200 points when he was not a contributing player, and brings him from Pat Verbeek level of scoring. Related: Pat Verbeek was better than him. He gets a lot of credit for his Cup run in Tampa, when he scored 1 goal in the playoffs and was not one of the 10 best players on his own team. He benefited from playing in a very high scoring era, from getting to play with really good centres who all did well without him and from sticking around for 7 years after he was any good. He was never one of the best players in the league. If Andreychuk were the best player on your team, your team was not making the playoffs. Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk were already bad choices but I think Andreychuk would be a few rungs lower. Of eligible forwards who have had to wait awhile Recchi and Kariya should be far far ahead. Mogilny and Turgeon, neither of which I would really care to induct, should be far ahead. Propp and Middleton should be ahead, and by then we've inducted about 100 forwards from the 80's and 90's.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


ThinkTank posted:

There's very much something to be said for going out on top. In 05/06 he played half a season terribly then got waived. That's a pretty disappointing way to end a career considering he could've walked into the sunset holding the cup over his head.

The 05/06 season is a treasure trove for old players who came back for one last chance: Lemieux, Andreychuk, Leetch, Mogilny, Palffy, Hull, Robitaille, and Yzerman are the eight best, but then you have Domi, Desjardins, Primeau, Zhamnov, Cassels, Scott Young, and Odelein.

Also, sorry to bring up Andreychuk everyone. I think he'll eventually make it in even though I have no strong opinion. Ciccarelli kind of opened the door for him.

Mike_V
Jul 31, 2004

Let's* go Blackhawks! The Blues and Red Wings suck.

Duckman2008 posted:

Yeah, I think for Flyers fans this isn't a surprise. Schenn has been, at best invisible on 5-5 for multiple seasons, so a lot of people have soured on him. Schenn for 2 first round picks is a win.

The Flyers better not put Lehtera on a line with any speed because he drags everyone else down. He's a good defensive center, but his conditioning is among the worst in the league and it becomes incredibly obvious a month into the season. Look at his numbers last year and realize he spent most of it playing with Schwartz and Tarasenko.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


a false posted:

also if you're going to use this argument and then say neely was that much better you should probably note that neely had ray bourque and adam oates playing alongside him during his best goal scoring years, who are 4th and 7th, respectively, all time in assists

They both got to play with some HOF-level talent. Andreychuk played with Turgeon, Perrault, Housley, Vaive, and a young Mogilny.

FWIW, I think both Neely AND Andreychuk belong in the hall. I think punishing Neely for being a victim of cheap shots when he was clearly a world class goal scorer is dumb.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

This Red Text Is Brought To You By The Fact That Paul Stastny Had To Go To FUCKING WINNIPEG To Get A Shot At A Stanley Cup.

P.S. Missouri is full of nothing but meth and so am I.


Fun Shoe


It is hard to choose a top lyle Odelein moment but this is probably my favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgu3z5ecGps

Spring Break My Heart
Feb 15, 2012


Lyle Odelein once made Team Canada. The Americans won that year

a false
Mar 5, 2009

I DECIDE
WHO LIVES
AND WHO DIES


bewbies posted:

Well probably, I don't know how good Neely was after he didn't have knees anymore and retired.

Playing 1600 games or whatever andreychuk did is a terrific accomplishment that I'm not trying to minimize but arguing he was a better player than Neely is pretty stupid, and if you're going to go after guys who actually don't belong in the hall can we please start with Gillies?

In conclusion Geoff Sanderson belongs in the hall.

my point is i don't really see why the gradual accrual of stats over a long successful career as a good player is that highly valued over a player amassing a lot of points in a short amount of time and then flaming out. i think you could absolutely argue that a player who made 20 years of solid contributions had more absolute value as a player than a guy who only had 4 or 5. the idea of one player being Obviously Better than another player becomes so arcane at a certain point that it is by its own nature inherently false (the 'obviously' in particular) unless your example is something like gretzky vs ... i don't know, a player who was not that great. john druce. whatever.

another example: i think the idea of people saying hasek was "obviously" better than brodeur is dumb as hell. yes, hasek as his peak was an absolute marvel in a way that brodeur never was at any given point. but let's say brodeur and hasek were the same age and eligible for the draft in the same year. if you could see into the future from that point exactly how their career arcs were going to go, which one would you pick? i'm probably going with brodeur.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


a false posted:

my point is i don't really see why the gradual accrual of stats over a long successful career as a good player is that highly valued over a player amassing a lot of points in a short amount of time and then flaming out. i think you could absolutely argue that a player who made 20 years of solid contributions had more absolute value as a player than a guy who only had 4 or 5. the idea of one player being Obviously Better than another player becomes so arcane at a certain point that it is by its own nature inherently false (the 'obviously' in particular) unless your example is something like gretzky vs ... i don't know, a player who was not that great. john druce. whatever.

another example: i think the idea of people saying hasek was "obviously" better than brodeur is dumb as hell. yes, hasek as his peak was an absolute marvel in a way that brodeur never was at any given point. but let's say brodeur and hasek were the same age and eligible for the draft in the same year. if you could see into the future from that point exactly how their career arcs were going to go, which one would you pick? i'm probably going with brodeur.

The reason people tend to think Hasek was significantly better than Brodeur is that Hasek was good wherever he went once he became a starter, and Brodeur's numbers seemed to be dependent on the quality of New Jersey's defence, especially in his later years. I think Brodeur belongs in the hall, because he was very good for a long time. But I'd rather have Hasek.

Keep in mind I think Hasek's a contender for GOAT at his position.

  • Locked thread
«122 »