Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«10 »
  • Locked thread
Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Tell him about the Twinkie.

Lick! The! Whisk! posted:

Like, if you honestly argue that Series Five is anything but one of if not the best seasons of Doctor Who, ever, I would say you are either arguing in fundamentally bad faith or aren't actually a fan.

You're arguing in bad faith, or at least setting up a ridiculous strawman, because very, very, very few of Moffat's critics have anything bad to say about the fifth season.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008



My hope for chibnall is that there's more of a focus on individual writers with crrrrazzzzzy ideas, and that they discover new talent.

I'm also hoping that the established tone ends up being more like rtd's crazy and silly tone. I don't think they should try to raise the material like Moffat did or it'll be season 9 again, it's going to be schlock so it should at least be Christmas invasion style fun schlock.

Which I think will probably happen since they want a new Tennant.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Prawn 2012
Studying the art of Tetrasquillidae
To keep you safe


Season 5 has a few clunkers (I mean, of course it does, it's a season of Doctor Who), but it has the best premiere I've seen of the show (haven't watched much of the old series), Amy's Choice, Vincent and the Doctor, The Lodger, and a finale that I really think delivered. The way it played with Rory's death was really great. A premiere and finale that fit well together, with some truly great episodes in between, is better than I've come to expect from Doctor Who.

Hemingway To Go! posted:

My hope for chibnall is that there's more of a focus on individual writers with crrrrazzzzzy ideas, and that they discover new talent.

This is what I'm hoping as well. Season 8 is far from my favorite season, but it got two great episodes from Jamie Mathieson, who came out of nowhere for me. Go find more like that.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

he places a lot of importance on the voting booths, which makes it weird that he doesn't seem to have paid much attention to them. Suggesting that they shift the blame for the rulers' crimes onto the populace and excuses the state is a reading which requires him to completely miss that the video begins with a threat and, if you protest, ends with you being executed.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

2house2fly posted:

he places a lot of importance on the voting booths, which makes it weird that he doesn't seem to have paid much attention to them. Suggesting that they shift the blame for the rulers' crimes onto the populace and excuses the state is a reading which requires him to completely miss that the video begins with a threat and, if you protest, ends with you being executed.

True. And it's not a normal living society anyway: It's a spaceship, and most of the passengers are cargo. It is essentially social stasis, so the society can be safely revived generations later when they reach their destination. I guess they didn't develop reliable cryosleep in time. Everything must be tightly controlled, because the margin for error is so thin in an artificial environment like that. There wouldn't be any homeless people, because reproduction would be controlled to not produce excess population that couldn't be housed, fed, and provided breathable air.

That analysis assumes inherent conflict between the rulers and the rest of the population. Even on a lifeboat. Bizzare.



Feeding small children to the space whale was dumb, especially once they knew the whale wouldn't eat them. They knew it was dumb, but they couldn't change it. Sounds like the Smilers were unable to be reprogrammed in flight. Probably an anti-corruption measure locked in at the beginning of the voyage. Completely impartial and autonomous law enforcement, in a situation where every crime is a capital crime.

cargohills
Apr 17, 2014



Facebook Aunt posted:

That analysis assumes inherent conflict between the rulers and the rest of the population. Even on a lifeboat. Bizzare.

It's a pretty reasonable assumption to make in a society that models itself on nostalgia for Britain past and has a royal family. And when the episode itself shows the government is behind the abuse of the space whale.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Always best to assume conflict between the rulers and the ruled. The rulers want to stay rulers, after all.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

It's a completely static society 'ruled' by an immortal queen who gets her memory reset every few decades. She's not an rear end in a top hat, and as long as she's immortal you don't need to worry that one of her heirs will be an rear end in a top hat. Getting her memory reset periodically keeps her from getting bored and jaded. She's exactly the same ruler she was 200 years ago.

There is a harsh but completely automated and completely impartial system of law enforcement.

There are no new developments. No new ideas. No new products. Complete stasis.

From what we see there is also no real want. No hunger.

No real room for organized crime or corrupt lobbyists. No way to accumulate vast wealth. In a situation like that, corruption is going to be something like getting your flat repainted every 8 years instead of every 10. And it will gall you that those corrupt bastards on the county/tower council are getting their flats repainted that often. Or that your widowed neighbour gets to live in a 2 bedroom flat by herself, because she doesn't want to move and her son has the connections to keep her from being reassigned to a 1 bedroom.

The whole society was engineered top to bottom to be as stable as possible. Not an ideal society, but a society with the best chance of getting your descendants to a new world.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?


Yeah, it's more of a paradise gone wrong than a direct analogy of Britain. That's why that review fails, imo. It's focusing on the author's intentions to an absurd degree while simultaneously claiming that he is inept. The author assumes that Moffat wants to satirise British politics, and then proceeds to bend over backwards just to find the analogy, finally deciding that Moffat doesn't know what he's doing ("who appears to have done so entirely unconsciously").

cargohills
Apr 17, 2014



It's literally called Starship UK (despite appearing to be more Starship England). The whole aesthetic is like a sci-fi Blitz spirit. There's a royal who's really just a figurehead. It seems like a pretty clear analogy to me.

If you're arguing entirely on this surface level you could try and say something like The Happiness Patrol or The Sun Makers isn't an analogy for Britain despite that pretty clearly being the case.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Being a complete dumbass is my actual shield


That's because it's actually literally the UK.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


They say it's Starship UK, but they also say that Scotland went off and did its own thing because of course they did.

Lick! The! Whisk!
Jan 18, 2009


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilot_(Doctor_Who)

In which
https://youtu.be/tyeJ55o3El0

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.



It should be a law to like Bill

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


Bill Potts the Science Swot

(Bill! Bill! Bill! Bill!)

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008



I've marathoned the other toxx reviews last few days and have to say I'm really jazzed to see his reviews for this one. Mainly to see if he judges bill worthy (I liked bill, wouldnt have watched the season if she was not fun)

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


When she began echoing Bill I started having "Midnight" flashbacks and freaking out before remembering that this villain-thing had a really lame lead-in.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

"Why is it blue?"
"It's always blue."


Glad to hear people like Bill because that character definitely seemed like it could have gone either way.

ThaGhettoJew
Jul 4, 2003

You're MY wife, now.

Craptacular! posted:

When she began echoing Bill I started having "Midnight" flashbacks and freaking out before remembering that this villain-thing had a really lame lead-in.

This episode has a number of thematic flashbacks to previous episodes. Midnight's echolalia, The Waters of Mars' water monster, The Lodger's kidnapped crew, Journey's End mind wiping, The Caretaker's setting (too easy?), and um... The Chase's... time chase... thingy... etc., etc. The list goes on. And of course all that is in addition to Capaldi's love for old school Who referencing in general. Like the picture of Susan and the Movellan/Dalek battle.

There are probably plenty more easy references but those are the ones that kind of stuck out most to me.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


ThaGhettoJew posted:

There are probably plenty more easy references but those are the ones that kind of stuck out most to me.

Going back through the episode I picked out basically all of these too outside of The Caretaker, so I have to imagine it was deliberate. I do think it does a pretty good job of keeping these in as nods without being alienating to newer viewers though.

Lick! The! Whisk!
Jan 18, 2009


Doctor Who
"The Pilot"
Series Ten, Episode One

What's most interesting about "The Pilot" is how similar to "Rose" it is. "Rose", of course, being the first episode of the absolutely dire pile of poo poo that is Series One.

Moffat's no stranger to taking an idea that RTD originated during his run and updating and/or improving it during his tenure; "Blink", most famously, feels incredibly thematically and structurally similar to "Love and Monsters". But "The Pilot" is near-identical to "Rose": both are Companion introductions that are simultaneously season premieres. The episode opens with an establishing shot of our new Companion, who happen to be Cockney-accented working class women. Both Companions, Rose and Bill (Pearl Mackie), are introduced quickly to The Doctor, and just as quickly resume their altogether regular lives almost immediately afterwards. They investigate the Doctor and his mythos, which in both cases entails looking at old photos that, impossibly, contain the Doctor's face, and he looks exactly the same age in those extremely dated photos as he does presently. They then meet their love interest, who is immediately captured and a weird evil replica is produced, who becomes the main antagonist of the episode. In the climax, the Companion confronts the evil replica, who is revealed to be a sentient fluid that copies the form of other races. The Doctor then yells at the sentient fluid and warns them not to antagonise any further, and the sentient fluid gives up. The soon-to-be Companion then has a heart-to-heart with their love interest, resulting in rejecting the love interest's advances, then the newly crowned Companion boards the TARDIS with The Doctor to begin a whole new season of adventures, at the end of which The Doctor will regenerate into somebody else.

It's really kind of bizarre, how close at an almost beat-for-beat level "The Pilot" is to "Rose". I hope somebody besides me has noticed this, because it's honestly sort of weird. As anyone who read my review (my first-ever review) of "Rose" will note, I hated - and still hate - "Rose" with a passion. It's an offensively dumb and misunderstood opening thesis for a reboot of a beloved television franchise, one that starts the show off on the wrongest foot possible. It's a dreary, boring, stupid episode that doesn't establish its Companion, barely establishes The Doctor (and only by having people talk about how great The Doctor is at Rose, over having The Doctor and Rose...you know....interact), and has a really, really stupid monster of the week. Like, among its dumbest, possibly ever, and this is in a season where fat aliens who are defeated by their farts are a bad guy we're supposed to take seriously. It's bad.

In contrast, "The Pilot" is a hell of a lot better, bordering on great. The concept of "Rose done right" is one the Who revival has tried to tackle many, many times - Martha, Donna, Amy, and Clara all feel like both RTD and Moffat trying to separate out various aspects of Rose's personality and improve that specific aspect, to mostly-success - only Martha is the real failure of the bunch. But Bill comes across as the most complete redux of Rose and also its most successful.

Rose failed for a myriad number of reasons where Bill doesn't; RTD, in his goofy and sort of subconsciously elitist way, tried to create an audience surrogate First Companion who would reflect the common person's viewpoint, but what he ended up making was a...dumb hot blonde who was patiently mansplained to by The Doctor. Rose never feels present within the world as established in Series One, just an excuse to either enable Greatness in The Doctor or to be patronizingly talked down to by the same.

Moffat mostly avoids this problem simply by changing the circumstances under which Bill and Twelve meet. Rose was introduced to The Doctor by literally being saved by him, the purest example of "damsel in distress" possible. It immediately wrong-footed our introduction to Rose, because she was presented as inherently subservient to The Doctor. In contrast, Moffat introduces Bill the way most other Companions are: she distinguishes herself to Twelve via her unique combination of skills, who then elects to elevate her to greatness due to her overwhelming level of competence. It's still a fundamentally sexist way to establish a character (considering that a woman only has value in-universe if and when an old white man decides so), but it's the level of sexism that Doctor Who always operates on, because literally every single Doctor has been a white dude. It's an unfortunate part of the form DW takes, and will be so until someone at the BBC wakes up and casts a woman to play The Doctor because, jesus loving christ, how the gently caress has that not happened yet.

For all of his supposed adulation of the blue-collar experience and emphasis on the street-level, common-man experience, RTD's Who ended up never feeling connective to the proletariat. This is partially because RTD's vision of "the working class" was skewed; like America, he viewed the white middle class as "the working class", over people of color and various minorities struggling to make rent or living paycheck-to-paycheck. (You can see this in any one of his myriad "Aliens invade Britain" storylines, which inevitably cuts to a shot of some, almost always white, traditionally hetero family with two kids cowering in a corner. It's not really a criticism, but it reflects the assumed normalcy that permeates culture and especially reflects how the moneyed rich view "the working poor"). His Rose, therefore, was fundamentally misguided; I mean, we can look at who was cast to play her. Getting a literal former pop star to play a working class "chav" is difficult to swallow.

Bill feels like the working class hero that RTD ostensibly "wanted" Rose to be but never really put in the effort of presenting her as beyond her job and accent. By being black, and by being queer, and by emphasising her food service job so repeatedly in the vignettes during the first act, Moffat believably sells Bill's common-man (or -woman) viewpoint in a way RTD never did. Bill is proudly and specifically a minority in the way Rose never was, and she struggles with things poor people everywhere do. She works serving chips all day because she can't afford tuition to the university she wants to go to. She sneaks into Twelve's lectures because she wants to learn so badly despite not being able to be a student. She has a weirdly tense relationship with her foster mother, who she still lives with, who wants her to focus on her job over her studies. Poor people can't afford idealism. When given the option of free learning, she chases that and succeeds admirably - reflecting how what separates the rich from the poor is a biological lottery, not drive or work ethic or whatever. I'm not gay, I'm not black, I'm not a woman, I'm not even British, but I absolutely see pieces of my life reflected in Bill when I never did with Rose. She, simply put, just works, and it's largely due to Moffat understanding how to present the truthfulness of the working class experience in a way RTD never really could.

Most importantly, though, Moffat making Bill gay (or at least queer) means that The Doctor is absolutely off limits as a romantic interest to Bill forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. It's a bit of a crass way of looking at it, but making Bill into girls is not only good for representation, it also means that as a matter of course the audience won't get the loving romance poo poo that sunk Rose so deeply, especially in Series One. Series One was a flaming trash heap for a whole number of different reasons, but it sucked especially badly because RTD substituted "Rose wants to gently caress the Doctor" for any sort of defining character trait. I mean, you could replace a good ninety percent of Rose's lines in Series One with (flirtingly) "Wot do ya mean, Doctah? Oi juss don' geyt it!" and absolutely no clarity would be lost. It's also notable considering one of the best episodes of the season (and only actually competent ones), "Father's Day", is especially good because it forces Rose to have a character trait that isn't her crushing on Nine. Moffat heading all of this off at the pass by making Bill not into what Twelve is bringing to the table forces the writing team, and Moffat specifically, to actually define her character.

It already pays dividends in "The Pilot"; Bill is interesting because she's well-written, and she's well-written because there has to be a variance in her interests. Considering how well she comes across here, I'm confident that Bill will continue to be afun Companion moving forward in Series Ten.

In case you couldn't tell, I really like Bill, a lot. Beyond her being a Companion I feel like I can specifically identify with, the same way I could identify with Rory Williams (the best Companion) because he was Just a Dude, she's a well-written and generally well-acted character that brings a lot of uniqueness to the table. I'm not one hundred percent sold on Bill just yet - I really hated basically everything about the handholding stuff in the climax. In addition, I wonder if maybe Pearl Mackie isn't a great dramatic actress because, again, I found the handholding scene sort of intolerable. It also didn't help that my one thought during the scene where Bill is sobbing while looking at photos of her dead Mom was "I guess I'm supposed to feel sad about this."

On the other hand I felt her confrontation with Twelve post-climax was one of the strongest scenes of the episode, wherein she insists on keeping her memories and not getting them wiped like Amy, Clara, et al. It was a very strong scene that Pearl Mackie sold very well, so perhaps there's just an adjustment period inherent to every new character.

I think it's interesting how, in addition to getting a new Companion, we essentially get a new Doctor in Twelve. There's a lot of really intelligent things Moffat does with Twelve in this episode - I enjoy that Twelve has turned from "nearly sociopathic uncaring rear end in a top hat" to "Kindly old dude who can be brutally cutting from time to time". It gives Capaldi's character an implied arc that starts and continues on from Clara's influence on him. He softens and learns his humanity, becomes a actual human being, and he's employing Clara's lessons here. I have a weird love-hate relationship with Clara - largely because a lot of her episodes were very bad and it took a billion zillion episodes to figure out what her character was supposed to be - but it's nice to see that Clara has this huge and really important influence on Twelve in the same way Amy and Rory did on Eleven.

It also continues and pays off the overall theme of Twelve's tenure on Who, that of teaching and learning, by making him literally a professor. It also takes some of the sting out of the sexist nature of Bill's onboarding process, because it's Twelve paying it forward - he was essentially "created" by Clara, who taught him the things he needed to succeed and thrive in his current form, and he's continuing her ideas by taking on a student of his own. It's a nice way to close that particular loop.

I'm still sort of lukewarm on "The Pilot", however. I think it's largely because its first act is just so good - it employs the best visual effects and feels the most new and original. Unfortunately, as "The Pilot" continues, it sort of falls back into being a traditional episode of Doctor Who, to its slight detriment. I wouldn't say the villain "ruins" "Pilot", like you can say in numerous circumstances when the bad guy shows up in an otherwise fascinating hour, but as soon as she does "Pilot" just turns into "Rose". And this is a problem, not because "Rose" is bad, because it most definitely is and "The Pilot" most definitely isn't, but because above all else "Rose" is an insanely traditional episode of DW. It has all these terrible elements on display and basically segments off Rose and Nine for no loving reason, but it's about a dumb, hackneyed villain who operates mostly as symbolism for something else that chases around the Doctor and his Companion until the villain is defeated, specifically via Doctor-shouting.

The first act of "The Pilot", however, intimates this very mundane, sort of sedate introduction to Bill. I wanted to see the version of "Pilot" that's just sixty minutes of Bill living her life and trying to get a girlfriend as maybe she sorta gradually figures out who Twelve really is, as The Doctor swoops and cavorts and lectures his students. That show is much more appealing than the show we actually got. It's especially notable here because, as soon as the antagonist shows up, nothing...really...happens. Twelve and Bill just sorta run away from it and we get the contractually-obligated Dalek appearance (which, more than ever before, sure does feel like Moffat cramming in the BBC-mandated yearly Dalek cameo so they keep the rights and he can get it out of the way early. Boy are they out of place here) during it. It feels so...weightless, so checkboxy. There's some good stuff - namely, Bill's reaction to the TARDIS is actually a fun spin on the skeptical wonder we're used to seeing from every new Companion. But beyond that it's just so by-the-numbers as a Companion intro. Here's Twelve wowing Bill with the TARDIS. Here's him going to somewhere else instaneously. He's him going to somewhen else, also it's an alien world that looks suspiciously like a quarry. Here's a Dalek, and oh boy look it's guys in alien costumes getting killed. Climax, resolution, denoument. Fin. It's not bad, but it's predictable, and it's especially intolerable here since Moffat provides us a glimpse of a much more thematically complex and interesting Companion introduction within those first twenty minutes.

But, again, it's not bad, just an episode that retreats from a much braver conceit in favor of a much more traditional one. It's pleasant, and Twelve and especially Bill come off looking especially well from it. There's quibbles I have, like how Twelve's turn from not wanting to use the TARDIS anymore and resume his professor gig/protect whatever the hell is in that vault into the traditional "Gotta go explore the known universe" persona we've come to expect from our Doctors feels really unearned and forced, but, whatever. It's a very decent pilot (ha ha! Thought I wouldn't make the pun, huh?!) for the season, and performs all of its jobs - introducing the Companion, reintroducing the Doctor, pairing them together and giving them a reason to go off on adventures - admirably.

And, most importantly, it's "Rose" but not complete and utter loving dogshit. So there's that.

Grade: B

Random Thoughts:
  • I'm still not like, 100% sold on Matt Lucas, but he works a lot better as this sort of bemused straight man over actually cutting goofs or whatever the gently caress he was doing in "Doctor Mysterio". I'll give Nadole some more leeway, I guess.
  • I have never hated an accessory more (and yes, that includes The loving Fez) than Bill's stupid ugly loving bow in her loving hair. When you have an afro as wondrous as Pearl Mackie's and you put a goddamn bow in it to gently caress it up what the gently caress are you doing. God. gently caress that loving bow.
  • Bill: "One time, you were going to give a lecture on quantum physics, you talked about poetry." The Doctor: "Poetry, physics, same thing." Bill: "How is it the same?" The Doctor: "Because of the rhymes."

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

That sure is a lot more parallels than I'd realised. I think I have more or less the opposite problem with the episode, where it was designed to introduce Bill and make the audience like her, and it did that well but it didn't really do much of anything else. Moffat managed to introduce Amy and Clara with fun and exciting episodes but this one misses that mark imo. I especially didn't like the story Bill tells at the start which is just a way to shoehorn in Bill being a lesbian (and also do a bit of thematic setup but whatever) even though her being lesbian is established in the montage like a minute later. Even acknowledged in the scene to not be relevant!

One difference from Rose though: in "Parting Of The Ways" Rose summed up her crappy council estate life as "eating chips". Bill serves chips. Probably Not meaningful, but I couldn't help but notice there are some comforts Rose has that Bill doesn't, like her relationship with her mother.

ThaGhettoJew
Jul 4, 2003

You're MY wife, now.

^^^ninjedit: I'm too slow. But yeah, chips.


Man, you're just going to have to get used to Bill's hair being fabulous. And that's even with being woke enough to know that talking about black women's hair is inherently stupidly reductionary and rarely appropriate.

Also you reminded me that Rose the episode is another pretty clear point of homage/reference, especially given the silly chips story as an almost direct callback (and to a lesser extent School Reunion, which had its own kind of chips thing for Rose the character). I'm not sure I see this episode nearly as much of a copy of Rose's plot as Lick The Toxx, but there are definite parallels. I think the differences are more important than the similarities though.

Rose stumbles across Nine's world, monstrous invasion in full swing as a mostly hapless damsel-in-tightjeans. Bill has been trying to insinuate herself into Twelve's world when a fairly personal, if dangerous, alien tragedy strikes. Rose has all the horror invade her life and responds by abandoning it for the charming stranger who exudes adventure (and "romance", presumably). Bill is digging herself out of mediocrity by attempting to cadge an education while still living her life when the world is revealed to her as much bigger than she expected. Nine is hyper-prepared for anything, Twelve is hyper-aware of everything he doesn't know. Rose wants to experience all the universe has to offer no matter what, Bill strives for knowledge and self-fulfillment but without relishing danger for excitement's sake. The two episodes are both show on-ramps, but aside from both introducing a contemporary female companion, an alien threat, and the Doctor they aren't all that alike.

Lick! The! Whisk!
Jan 18, 2009


I love Bill's hair. I hate the bow. Cause it's loving terrible. It's not even a pretty bow, its some brown colored blob that fucks up the lines of her awesome afro!

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Lick! The! Whisk! posted:

This is partially because RTD's vision of "the working class" was skewed; like America, he viewed the white middle class as "the working class", over people of color and various minorities struggling to make rent or living paycheck-to-paycheck.
This review is loaded with #woke sociology stuff, but I won't begrudge you for it because you actually write a lot of words as to why you feel the way you do instead of just saying "that's problematic AF" and walking away as online culture critics ceaselessly do in our tweet-focused world of disposable hot takes.

But I do want to point out: obviously, black people were freed much earlier in Britain America, and there wasn't a half-century of laws designed to keep them disadvantaged and dependent on whites for generations afterward. It's not equal, but it's far less oppressive when you don't have "state's rights" conspiring against an entire population and telling them this is legal and perfectly within the framework for 100 years. There ARE demographics with a lot of correlation to working class poverty, but they're slightly more complex: single working moms and immigrants are probably the big two you'll see on TV most often.

I wouldn't be opposed to that if it isn't really hard to write genre fiction television in the trappings of a sci-fi show. How do you make it matter where someone is originally born from in a way that matters but doesn't cause offense or feel like a pander? It's really difficult, especially when your main character is a space alien who fell out of time. Likewise, the signature characteristic of a single working mom is there's not enough time in the world to get by, which does sound like material for a good story but not a whole series.


Anyway, I liked this episode. It's by the numbers, but many feel like they haven't seen Doctor Who in forever and, more importantly business-wise some kids have cycled into the program's age group since the last episodes were aired, so having a "jumping-on point" isn't a bad idea. The last season was just loaded with continuity muck with stuff like Davros, Gallifrey, that dumb callback about the Doctor's parents, etc.

Was never a big Capaldi fan through his run but I liked him here. Playing a weirdly old professor instead "well he should always be saving things somewhere" seems fitting for him, and the montage of him talking while the chips are cooking etc was great.

The fact that the audience got like three good looks at the portraits on his desk seemed excessive but it's a quibble I can live with.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at Jul 15, 2017 around 18:14

cargohills
Apr 17, 2014



I'm really not convinced that RTD is so much worse at working class representation than Moffat. Even just looking at the companions, Rose has a poo poo job and lives on a council estate with her mother, and Donna is a temp who lives with her mother well into adulthood. Martha is the most middle-class of the three outwardly due to the whole medical student thing but she also lives iirc with a single parent.

In comparison, Bill is the only working class Moffat companion - Amy lives in a big house in some sleepy village, Rory's a nurse and Clara's a teacher with her own place.

adhuin
Sep 15, 2008

Sobriety blows

also demographics in UK are very different from US.
In 2011 UK was 87% White (down from 92% in 2001), with biggest minority being Asian/Asian British at 7%.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

adhuin posted:

also demographics in UK are very different from US.
In 2011 UK was 87% White (down from 92% in 2001), with biggest minority being Asian/Asian British at 7%.

Right, but the demographics of London, the most important city on planet earth, are only 60% white as of 2011. 18% asian* and 13% black.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demog...ondon#Ethnicity



* in this case asian is more india/pakistan/bangladesh than china/japan/korean. In north america when we hear asian white people mostly think of the yellow asians, not the brown asians.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!


The Pilot

Bill is loving amazing and thank heaven. The episode was pretty decent, too.

A

And More
AndwhatIseeisme
Blasmeister
bsam
Stabbatical
The_Doctor
thrawn527
Wolfechu


B

2house2fly
adhuin
all-Rush mixtape
Big Mean Jerk
cargohills
jng2058
Llab
Red Metal
Rochallor
Senerio
WeirdSandwich


C

Not entirely out of the realm of possibility, but it'd be pretty weird.

D

No fools took this bait.

F

If anyone had voted this I would have doubted their sanity.


Overall Average Guess: 3.5 (A-)
Standard Deviation: 0.5

Current rankings:

all-Rush mixtape: 0
jng2058: 0
Llab: 0
Big Mean Jerk: 1
cargohills: 1
thrawn527: 1
WeirdSandwich: 1
2house2fly: 2
adhuin: 2
And More: 2
AndwhatIseeisme: 2
Blasmeister: 2
Red Metal: 2
Senerio: 2
Stabbatical: 2
The_Doctor: 2
Wolfechu: 2
Rochallor: 3
bsam: 4

Down to three leaders, but so far, two perfect guesses apiece! Of course, this one was easy; with a standard deviation of 0.5, it's surely among the least divisive episodes on the list in terms of voting. And, of course, we've barely begun the season; still plenty of time to fail and plenty of time for everyone else to catch up.

CityMidnightJunky
May 11, 2013

Awww!!


Lick! The! Whisk! posted:

Doctor Who
"The Pilot"
Series Ten, Episode One

ce. It's still a fundamentally sexist way to establish a character (considering that a woman only has value in-universe if and when an old white man decides so), but it's the level of sexism that Doctor Who always operates on, because literally every single Doctor has been a white dude. It's an unfortunate part of the form DW takes, and will be so until someone at the BBC wakes up and casts a woman to play The Doctor because, jesus loving christ, how the gently caress has that not happened yet.


Almost stopped reading here. Having an old white man in the lead doesn't make it inherently sexist. I actually agree that they should cast a woman, because it'll freshen up the show, but these sorts of arguments are getting so hyperbolic and ridiculous and borderline SJW that I almost want it to be an old white man again just to piss off the people who can't shut up about how sexist/racist it would be if they do.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!


Lick! The! Whisk! posted:

It also didn't help that my one thought during the scene where Bill is sobbing while looking at photos of her dead Mom was "I guess I'm supposed to feel sad about this."

So, I did feel a bit sad, but actually that one struck me as more of a character moment for the Doctor. After hearing how she didn't have any pictures of her mom, he went back and arranged for those to be there, and it's a very humanizing moment where he uses his power to help someone out in a less traditional way than he usually does. It's a nice reminder that saving people doesn't have to involve monsters or weird aliens all the time.

CityMidnightJunky posted:

Almost stopped reading here. Having an old white man in the lead doesn't make it inherently sexist. I actually agree that they should cast a woman, because it'll freshen up the show, but these sorts of arguments are getting so hyperbolic and ridiculous and borderline SJW that I almost want it to be an old white man again just to piss off the people who can't shut up about how sexist/racist it would be if they do.

Uh, the thesis here is not "it's a white guy, and therefore racist", it's that the black queer woman gains value by being judged worthy by an old white guy. The problem is, that's built into the formula until the rejigger the show so it isn't. Swapping out the Doctor for a woman actually isn't the only way of doing it, although it's the simplest and best way; they could also have a companion that has something going on before running into the Doctor (like Romana would have with different writers). Of course, you're also complaining about SJWs, so I may be wasting my breath here.

Pissflaps
Oct 20, 2002



The new Doctor is Miranda.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

"Why is it blue?"
"It's always blue."


I agree with Occ about the event in the episode being sexist, but I'm not sure about the idea that Doctor Who always 'operates under a level of sexism' simply because its protagonist is a white male. Like, does that apply to EVERY show with a white male protagonist?

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Escobarbarian posted:

I agree with Occ about the event in the episode being sexist, but I'm not sure about the idea that Doctor Who always 'operates under a level of sexism' simply because its protagonist is a white male. Like, does that apply to EVERY show with a white male protagonist?

Yes.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!


Not every show with a white male protagonist builds into its formula a generally-female sidekick whose main role is to get complicated (or nonsensical) concepts explained to her like she's three and be kidnapped every few episodes. I mean, that setup was explicitly sexist when it was originated; I've seen interviews with some of the original writers where they out-and-out say as much (in a "and who cares about that?" kind of way). The modern show has made some efforts to alter that formula, but in a pinch the show still relies on the old trope of putting the companion in danger so they can be saved by the Doctor, and with their genders being what they are, it's hard to make that not seem sexist after a while. That's why a female Doctor would be a good move, to just break out of that whole thing.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

"Why is it blue?"
"It's always blue."


EDIT: never mind the post above me explains it really well. DocWhat you silly.

MillennialVulcan
Feb 11, 2008

(Thought-ful Croak)


[extremely nerd voice] SJW

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

cargohills posted:

I'm really not convinced that RTD is so much worse at working class representation than Moffat. Even just looking at the companions, Rose has a poo poo job and lives on a council estate with her mother, and Donna is a temp who lives with her mother well into adulthood. Martha is the most middle-class of the three outwardly due to the whole medical student thing but she also lives iirc with a single parent.

In comparison, Bill is the only working class Moffat companion - Amy lives in a big house in some sleepy village, Rory's a nurse and Clara's a teacher with her own place.
I don't know much about Moffat's personal life but based on his writing I'd definitely guess he grew up middle class, and you can see that in the bits of characters' lives that we see I think: Amy and Rory have a gigantic wedding reception that the whole village turns up for despite having jobs that aren't associated with that kind of disposable income like nurse and kissogram; they can take time off work for an impromptu trip to America; Clara's a teacher whose only job concern is how mean the children are, etc. Money and work don't feel so much like tangible parts of his companions' lives, almost as if they're being written by someone who doesn't have to worry about that kind of thing himself

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


I don't complain about "SJWs", because I think it's a really dumb term and if you do it's like displaying a membership card to a really awful clique. However I do tire of people having an expectation that their entertainment align with their values; often just calling the incongruous bits "problematic" and then leaving it there. This term always implies it's the fault of media.

What Occ posted was not simply "wow this show is problematic" but he actually specified why the dynamics wear thin. And it's not that you can't have a white man explain the universe to a woman even once, or else he'd been relentlessly railing this show from the beginning, it's that when you do it ad nauseum for 50 it becomes noticeably institutionalized and when you're still doing it in 2016 it shows no willpower to face the matter. And he provided thoughtful alternatives rather than shout that the show simply isn't good enough and leaving it there.

At that point, you don't have to agree with the opinion, but at least it's a well thought out opinion and not simply a low-effort attempt to score points in our dumbass web culture of calling out publicly anything that is "doing it wrong."

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008



Well I didn't really compare the episode or bill to rose but that particular episode seems to have traumatized toxx and he seems to have it on his mind when new companions show up because this isn't the first time he's angrily described how much of a bag of poo that episode was at the start of an unrelated review and then describe why the current episode was better.

  • Locked thread
«10 »