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DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Feels Villeneuve posted:

isn't Financial Fair Play more about making sure owners don't spend wildly and make clubs insolvent, than about parity

Ultimately, yeah, but I don't think you'll ever see any league or club admit that.

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EvanTH
Apr 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


Gigi Galli posted:

When you say FIFA do you mean the international tournaments? This isn't anything that can really be enforced. Talented players come from bigger nations with a bigger history in the sport itself and those nations produce enough of those players to win tournaments. These nations have the biggest leagues and the biggest youth systems as well. Players don't get paid to play for the national team in the traditional sense and there isn't a league, there's just the world cup, the euros, the copa america, etc. T

I think you meant UEFA and it's respective leagues. There is no cap, no draft, basically no oversight at all really, and there never will be unless some new league is formed. There is the recent idea of Financial Fair Play which basically means nothing in practice, and that's about as close as it gets. On an individual league level you are right. Spain, Germany, England, Italy and France all have between 1 and 5 or so teams that could conceivable win a league title. They are the teams preferred by the state and TV companies (Spain), the foreign oil owned teams (England, France), the cheaters only financially solvent (Italy) or just the objectively dominant team with no slowing down (Germany). At a European level basically only those teams have a hope in hell of winning the continental title(s) as well, so maybe you meant that.

I don't really want a cap or a draft or any of that poo poo. It would be nice if the FFP rules were not just there for criminal accounting practice sessions I guess.

Ah, my mistake. Yes, I was thinking UEFA. Was hunting for the umbrella to cover La Liga, Premier League, Ligue 1 and Serie A and I went too wide.

I guess Bundesliga is also an annual a 1 team competition now?

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

"Financial Fair Play" is like how Republicans call the "you can dump poo poo into the water now" bill the "Clean Stream for America Act"

Gigi Galli
Sep 19, 2003

OH LOOK MY HEROES RETIRED ON A LOW BECAUSE THEY'RE SHIT, MAYBE THIS IS A SIGN FOR ME TO RETIRE AS A MOD TO EMULATE MY HEROES?


EvanTH posted:

Ah, my mistake. Yes, I was thinking UEFA. Was hunting for the umbrella to cover La Liga, Premier League, Ligue 1 and Serie A and I went too wide.

I guess Bundesliga is also an annual a 1 team competition now?

Has been for a bout 5 years now I think

ElwoodCuse posted:

"Financial Fair Play" is like how Republicans call the "you can dump poo poo into the water now" bill the "Clean Stream for America Act"

I prefer to think of it like "Citizens United" but yes.

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016


Rotten Cookies posted:

I would say that absolute parity is a bad thing. Absolute parity being that every team has a 50/50 shot at winning any game, and that every team has an equal shot at winning the championship in any given year. That would suck.

But I'd also say that the ebb and flow of watching teams get bad then get good again is an inherently good part of sports fandom. To me, parity in sports is in a larger sense. That maybe no team is further out than 5* years from being Good. Every team is given the opportunity to be competitive given good management. Or, I guess management that doesn't just gently caress up constantly or something.

Even if I'm Right, and every sports commissioner agree with me, how you get to that ideal parity is something else. The same draft that might give you that sort of parity in the NBA wouldn't work for the MLB. The way that the rookies drafted affect each sport is just so wildly different. A salary cap, a soft cap, luxury tax, or no cap at all, and how much for each, how much are they evening out the playing field in each sport? I don't fuckin' know, I'm a dumb dumb. But I think it's neat. Given the different ways leagues can "control" parity, do we believe that the leagues are aiming for parity? Or do they want dynasties and poo poo?
* - totally just pulled the number 5 years outta my rear end.

This is a really good post. The dream that your team is only 5 years out is a good way to keep fans motivated and interested. Also, you need powerhouse teams to give the other teams something to shoot at.

If everything cycles too much then it's a big coinflip. A few teams percolating near the top, but being beaten by the scrappy underdogs du jour every couple of seasons is exciting because your team is so close to being that team.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Yeah I'm not a big fan of super-parity but Bayern Munich responding to challengers by buying all their competitors' best players eventually got ridiculous.

dont be mean to me
May 2, 2007

I'm interplanetary, bitch
Let's go to Mars




marioinblack posted:

Really the goal should be to make market size not matter, but players are human beings and human beings in their prime years enjoy places like LA. So nuke LA.

Let me get this straight.

Fifteen million people deserve to be murdered horribly.

The world deserves to be driven to the brink of global war.

Human rights deserve to be flushed down the toilet even harder than usual.

All so whatever team your sad rear end watches play a kid's game stand a half-percent chance of drawing in journeymen. Not even all-stars.

What is wrong with you?!

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

dont be mean to me posted:

Let me get this straight.

Fifteen million people deserve to be murdered horribly.

The world deserves to be driven to the brink of global war.

Human rights deserve to be flushed down the toilet even harder than usual.

All so whatever team your sad rear end watches play a kid's game stand a half-percent chance of drawing in journeymen. Not even all-stars.

What is wrong with you?!

lmao

Teemu Pokemon
Jun 19, 2004

To sign them is my real test

With full no movement clause


when Keeping it Real goes wrong

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


dont be mean to me posted:

Let me get this straight.

Fifteen million people deserve to be murdered horribly.

The world deserves to be driven to the brink of global war.

Human rights deserve to be flushed down the toilet even harder than usual.

All so whatever team your sad rear end watches play a kid's game stand a half-percent chance of drawing in journeymen. Not even all-stars.

What is wrong with you?!

Yes

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016


dont be mean to me posted:

Let me get this straight.

Fifteen million people deserve to be murdered horribly.

The world deserves to be driven to the brink of global war.

Human rights deserve to be flushed down the toilet even harder than usual.

All so whatever team your sad rear end watches play a kid's game stand a half-percent chance of drawing in journeymen. Not even all-stars.

If it means the end of the red sox, bruins and patriots then yes.

quote:

What is wrong with you?!

I'm a sports fan.

EvanTH
Apr 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


My personal favorites are the "Citizens For Fire Safety" that was a lobbying front for asbestos manufacturers, and the American Petroleum Institute sounding bizarrely open in its naming scheme to distract from the massive amount of foreign cash it takes in.


dont be mean to me posted:

Let me get this straight.

Fifteen million people deserve to be murdered horribly.

The world deserves to be driven to the brink of global war.

Human rights deserve to be flushed down the toilet even harder than usual.

All so whatever team your sad rear end watches play a kid's game stand a half-percent chance of drawing in journeymen. Not even all-stars.

What is wrong with you?!

Well at first I thought it was just a lil joke but when you put it that way, I'm all aboard. Let's Nuke LA!

Also how does the USA nuking itself precipitate global war

Jummy
Jun 14, 2007

Oh, my love, my darling.


Feels Villeneuve posted:

Yeah I'm not a big fan of super-parity but Bayern Munich responding to challengers by buying all their competitors' best players eventually got ridiculous.

Those teams should have paid their best players enough to stick around. Free market, baby!

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007




Hell Gem

Everyone talks about salary caps but I think league revenue sharing is more important. In the NFL, a lot of revenues are shared, but teams still get to keep the money they make on certain things, so that overall about 60% of total NFL revenues are shared. Some of the sharing arrangements are blatantly stupid: for example, ticket and merchandise revenues are shared, except for Dallas who gets to keep theirs and doesn't share the others', for some loving reason.

The big difference between the NFL and the other major leagues is that NFL teams share their media revenues; money from advertising during games on TV and radio, mostly, plus usually the ticket sales. In most cases across all the sports, the teams keep their own licensing fees from stuff like stadium sponsorships.

This article spells out more of the details.

Basically though, the big difference is that there's a strong incentive in all sports to have your team be located in a very large media market, and the revenue sharing arrangements typically have to try to address that to prevent the teams in tiny markets from always being at an enormous money disadvantage.

I tend to think that if all the teams have something close to the same amounts of money to spend, then salary caps would be unnecessary. It's actually in the players' best interests to be able to earn more if they're better, which a cap restricts... but if you have (say) 32 teams, but the bottom 10 teams in terms of money could never afford any of the top 32 star players, that's where you have an "unfairness" inherent in the system. As others have said, this matters more in sports where a single star player can make the difference between a playoff run and perennial mediocrity, and less in sports where you have large rosters that rotate in and out of play for over a hundred games a season.

Even so, there's also a good argument that guaranteed profits reduce the incentive for team owners to drive hard for championships. I'd say you need to arrange things so that owners get a lot more money when their teams make playoff runs... and that is the case I believe in all of the leagues, where getting into the playoffs means more (and much more lucrative) media and sponsorship revenues, playoff ticket sales, etc. But I don't offhand know how significant that is, and if you're a multi-billionaire owner, maybe you don't give a poo poo about an extra ten million dollars (or whatever) you personally get for a successful championship.

e. I think you also shouldn't ignore the money spent on coaching and management. If your team has a tiny budget, it can't afford to attract the best coaches and managers, which translates to poor player acquisition, poor star player retention, and of course, poor game performance.

Leperflesh fucked around with this message at Jul 12, 2017 around 17:50

straight up brolic
Jan 31, 2007

After all, I was nice in ball,
Came to practice weed scented
Report card like the speed limit



Soccer has performance-based revenue sharing in England, Germany, and Italy

dont be mean to me
May 2, 2007

I'm interplanetary, bitch
Let's go to Mars




EvanTH posted:

Well at first I thought it was just a lil joke but when you put it that way, I'm all aboard. Let's Nuke LA!

Then you want me to die.

Probably several other SAS posters and a bunch of other Forums-posters, but you want me to die to my face.

dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at Jul 12, 2017 around 19:40

Space Camp fuckup
Aug 2, 2003



Good userame / post combo

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


dont be mean to me posted:

Then you want me to die.

Probably several other SAS posters and a bunch of other Forums-posters, but you want me to die to my face.

Calm down OP

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012

We just out here tipping more than $13


dont be mean to me posted:

Then you want me to die.

Probably several other SAS posters and a bunch of other Forums-posters, but you want me to die to my face.

I do op

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Grimey Drawer

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

The Cowboys keep all their merch money because they opted out of the sharing agreement. Same thing as how Jordan and Bonds opted out of their PA's marketing agreements.

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016


Phobeste posted:

Picture of a big poo poo

gently caress you. gently caress Boston.

DoctorGonzo
Jul 25, 2016

DoctorCompleto



Max Mosley was a loving idiot and almost killed formula 1 with his dumbass ideas. Im glad that President Montezemolo of Scuderia Ferrari with the help of the other teams saved the sport.

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Grimey Drawer

ilmucche posted:

gently caress you. gently caress Boston.

Don't be upset buddy rolls dice Tampa can still be an ok place to live even if they don't win at sports very often

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Mods please rename the thread to "Should all Angelenos Be Brutally Firebombed To Death? A Serious Discussion"

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Feels Villeneuve posted:

Mods please rename the thread to "Should all Angelenos Be Brutally Firebombed To Death? A Serious Discussion"

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

Feels Villeneuve posted:

Mods please rename the thread to "Should all Angelenos Be Brutally Firebombed To Death? A Serious Discussion"

Why is this even a discussion?

Jota
May 6, 2003

uga-booga uga-booga

dont be mean to me posted:

Then you want me to die.

Probably several other SAS posters and a bunch of other Forums-posters, but you want me to die to my face.

I want you to die. In a ball of fire.

Craig K
Nov 10, 2016



now now this is a parity thread, nuke the entire planet

Craig K
Nov 10, 2016



wait, no, parity, poo poo, nuke all of the US in order of reverse standings by the local NBA team

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Grimey Drawer

Craig K posted:

wait, no, parity, poo poo, nuke all of the US in order of reverse standings by the local NBA team

I thought the consensus was LA first, not Philly.

Unless we're talking historic, in which case, well the Clippers.

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

Onward to pie!


iospace posted:

I thought the consensus was LA first, not Philly.

You mean Brooklyn?

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Grimey Drawer

Intruder posted:

You mean Brooklyn?

Same difference in that it's not LA going down first.

EvanTH
Apr 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


Craig K posted:

wait, no, parity, poo poo, nuke all of the US in order of reverse standings by the local NBA team

Um this either makes the Raptors #1 or drives the United States of America and Canada to the BRINK OF GLOBAL WAR so it's unacceptable to me

Intruder posted:

You mean Brooklyn?

Gonna be a huge nuke timesaver this coming year because the Knicks and the Nets are looking ready to be #29 and #30

Rotten Cookies
Nov 11, 2008

gosh! i like both the islanders and the rangers!!! :^)


EvanTH posted:

Gonna be a huge nuke timesaver this coming year because the Knicks and the Nets are looking ready to be #29 and #30

An interesting new take on revenue sharing

Doctor Teeth
Sep 11, 2008


I only really follow international football, not club, but I thought the whole point of Financial Fair Play was more to prevent another Manchester City from happening (ludicrously rich new owner splurges ungodly amounts of money to propel them into title contention and disrupting the big 4) rather than to encourage parity.

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Grimey Drawer

Doctor Teeth posted:

I only really follow international football, not club, but I thought the whole point of Financial Fair Play was more to prevent another Manchester City from happening (ludicrously rich new owner splurges ungodly amounts of money to propel them into title contention and disrupting the big 4) rather than to encourage parity.

There is no such thing as international football unless we graciously deign to spread the light of the NFL to lesser nations as sort of a peripheral reward in addition to keeping the world safe and secure for the commerce that ensures your way of life

EvanTH
Apr 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


Rotten Cookies posted:

An interesting new take on revenue sharing

Idea: instead of relegation, once a year we take the worst team in the league and allow them to nuke LA

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Doctor Teeth posted:

I only really follow international football, not club, but I thought the whole point of Financial Fair Play was more to prevent another Manchester City from happening (ludicrously rich new owner splurges ungodly amounts of money to propel them into title contention and disrupting the big 4) rather than to encourage parity.

Well that's kind of happening in Germany with the extremely fake RB Leipzig team so it's not doing a very good job of that.

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Gigi Galli
Sep 19, 2003

OH LOOK MY HEROES RETIRED ON A LOW BECAUSE THEY'RE SHIT, MAYBE THIS IS A SIGN FOR ME TO RETIRE AS A MOD TO EMULATE MY HEROES?


Doctor Teeth posted:

I only really follow international football, not club, but I thought the whole point of Financial Fair Play was more to prevent another Manchester City from happening (ludicrously rich new owner splurges ungodly amounts of money to propel them into title contention and disrupting the big 4) rather than to encourage parity.

It was in response to that, but the idea presented to UEFA was to prevent things like Parma happening, where a bunch of non-existent or criminally based money is used to propel the team to the top of the league and then bankrupt them 2 years later when the government and lending agencies catch up to what's going on.

As a side effect of that, it's supposed to allow for smaller teams to catch up, but we all know that smaller teams don't generate nearly as much money from sponsorships and advertisements and whatnot, so it's sort of a losing fight. You're not going to see Huddersfield or Crotone sign an official Japanese house paint supplier or some poo poo.

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