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Welcome, team black! The players on team black are: AJ_Impy BioEnchanted chitoryu12 CirclMastr Crosspeice Davin Valkri DM Zero Dr. Snark Glaive17 HerpicleOmnicron5 idhrendur Nice piece of fish oldskool Paul.Power Snorb Suspect Bucket Talow UnderFreddy Rules of the game: The teams will choose their move based on a simple vote - Note that this means that explaining to your team mates why your suggested move is the best is just as important as coming up with it in the first place! Teams will have 24 hours to decide on their move, though I will call the vote early if one move gains a clear majority. I'd much prefer if you refer to your moves using standard chess notation as much as possible to make things easier on me! I'd also prefer if as much team communication as possible is kept in the threads, both for the benefit of the observer thread and to make it easier for new players to follow the lines of thinking without having to use external sites. Players aren't allowed to read the observer thread or the opposing team's thread, observers aren't allowed to post in the team threads. No use of chess engines to find moves is allowed. However: Linking to Wikipedia or other sources of information when referring to openings or chess concepts is not only allowed, but actively encouraged! Absolutely no super villainy allowed. A quick summary of algebraic notation Each square on the chessboard is identified by a coordinate system. The vertical columns (files) are labelled, a-h, the horisontal rows (ranks) are labelled 1-8. Each move is denoted by the letter of the piece (K for king, Q for queen, R for rook, B for bishop, N for knight, pawns don't get a letter), and the square that they move to. For example: Bf4 denotes that a bishop moves to the square f4. If a capture is made, this is denoted by an x. For example: Bxf4 denotes a bishop moving to square f4 and capturing. If more than one piece can move to the same square the notation is disambiguated by the letter of the file (vertical column) from which the piece moved. For example, Bgf4 means that the bishop on the g file moves to f4. Want to play even more chess? Check out the free app Chess by Post! (Microsoft Store , Google Play, App Store) It features both ranked matchmade games against random players at the same skill level, and unranked games with friends with full compatibility across all devices. It also has a very handy move planner, which probably is the main thing saving me from constantly blundering. It also has an extremely merciful time limit for games, which is nice. Usernames of thread goons using the app (just let me know if you want to be added to this list!): covski idhrendur excloudygh circlmastr fatsamurai HisMajestyBOB Livewire42 Leylite Raldan Covski fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 19:38
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1. White to move.  White has 24 hours to decide on a move. Best of luck, team black! Covski fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 19:38
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So, do we try and fool's mate them?
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Jul 10, 2017 19:46
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Probably not the best idea; the fools mate is one of those strategies that either requires your opponent to try and give you checkmate or we have to stupidly lucky. While we can certainly question the intelligence of the other team as much as we want, odds are it ain't happening.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:51
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This'll be interesting. Looking forward to helping decide our move tomorrow. 
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Jul 10, 2017 20:04
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Greetings team. We are on the back foot here, so I present a hypothesis. We are human, and we can verify that we are human. That is simple and that is fact. We must treat the enemy as not human, but as algorithm, machine, hivemind. As computer. Therefore, we must face the greatest precedent that chess has seen: The matches of Kasparov and Deep Blue. We wait and see the move of the enemy, match it against the move of the White player of any of the Kasparov/Deep Blue games, and mimic those moves. It's a simple standing strategy that will allow us to have a basis of decision making for the opener. Should the enemy make a move against this precedent, I suggest we begin by opening up our Queen. P.S. Hi Davin!
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Jul 10, 2017 20:06
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I would assume that if we go 2 ...Bc5 they will counter with 3. Nf3, assuming they don't do that with moves 1 or 2. Going for early checkmate is not going to work.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:07
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:P.S. Hi Davin! REFEREE, EJECT THIS MAN FROM THE TOURNAMENT HALL also hi Herp-derp. Also we should probably wait until they actually move before we start speculating on the proper counterattack.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:08
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I think it's best to begin planning, Chess is a game that must be thought out moves in advance. I'm not a good enough thinker to make these plans, though to use match precedent as provisional guidance is best (especially if black won in that match).
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Jul 10, 2017 20:13
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Davin Valkri posted:Also we should probably wait until they actually move before we start speculating on the proper counterattack. Is there any reason to think they won't open with e4? Might as well talk about our response.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:13
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By the way, I'd like to request that in planning we don't use full chess notation. That makes it harder for us who just know chess casually to chip in with words and advice.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:14
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CirclMastr posted:Is there any reason to think they won't open with e4? Might as well talk about our response. The usual response to this is to double-move the opposing pawn to block theirs, and it's the move they do after that which will force us to start defining our strategy. At this stage there's not much else we can do aside from having some baseless speculation on their move after that.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:21
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Dr. Snark posted:The usual response to this is to double-move the opposing pawn to block theirs, and it's the move they do after that which will force us to start defining our strategy. At this stage there's not much else we can do aside from having some baseless speculation on their move after that. Can't we do a scandinavian defense against that move? HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 21:24
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AJ_Impy posted:So, do we try and fool's mate them? HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Can't we do a scandinavian defense against that move? Just to clarify: Linking to Wikipedia or other sources of information when referring to openings or chess concepts is not only okay, but actively encouraged! I will amend the rules to mention this.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:28
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Amended with this in mind. By the way, I encourage everyone on the team to not use the edit function for adding any new words. Post flooding should help with sapping the morale of White team.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:32
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Ah good, I prefer playing Black, White pieces always look so tacky. Looking forward to sinking some battleships. Let's go with, uh, D5 for the first move, let the bishops loose.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:37
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Yeah, D5 is a great defensive opener. That's the good ol' aforementioned Scandi, though again if we do see a chance for positive precedent we should mimic it.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:38
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Can't we do a scandinavian defense against that move? Possibly, but that would rely on White moving their pawn in row D to pull that off. If they do end up doing that it's certainly an option.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:39
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Dr. Snark posted:Possibly, but that would rely on White moving their pawn in row D to pull that off. If they do end up doing that it's certainly an option. No, it's their move to E4 rather than D4/5, we're the ones that move on row D.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:52
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Assuming they use a standard opener, we should probably go with a standard defense. But if we'd like to see the world burn, we could open with a5 or h5. Sure it'll take a few moves to get the rook out, and sure it gets all crowded making the rooks not useful until later, but it can really throw other inexperienced players off balance. That said, it's probably even more terrible than I know, and we should stick to pretty standard moves.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:59
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I'd also request that the more experienced players please describe their moves and strategies in a way that 1's like myself can understand.
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Jul 10, 2017 22:00
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chitoryu12 posted:I'd also request that the more experienced players please describe their moves and strategies in a way that 1's like myself can understand. Thanks for the reminder! I'm being a bit of a tongue-in-cheek advocate of (AFAIK) an oddball strategy. Instead of using our critical opening moves to get a bunch of pieces in play, I'm suggesting we use those turns to move one of the outside pawns up then spending a few more turns to get a rook up and then over. It's not really a viable strategy: rooks are powerful but (in my experience) do poorly when the board is crowded. They're more useful later in the game as the board opens up. But an oddball opening might really throw the other team off balance and give us some opportunities.
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Jul 10, 2017 22:06
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I've added a short summary of the most commonly used algebraic notation to the first post, to make understanding things a bit easier on new players!
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Jul 10, 2017 22:29
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Let's hang on here a minute, goons. My thought right now is we should go either Nb6 or Nf6, depending on which side Team White's going for. Let's try to get the center of the board under control with our knights.
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Jul 10, 2017 22:33
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The first move being a move with knights is a bad move IMHO. We're making a defensive play, sure, but we don't gain any tempo or momentum of our own. This is key in the game of Chess: we need to unlock as many pieces as possible (Developing) in order to be able to fight effectively.
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Jul 10, 2017 22:44
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I'm thinking either d5 or e5 to counter whichever side they start on by releasing one of our bishops. They are powerful, mobile and erratic, although only one because if both are out there's a danger of them getting removed early. Saving releasing the rooks could save us later because having one or more of our rooks not moving means if worst comes to worst we have an option for castling. The bishops don't have that defensive move, so the rooks are better savoured before they are wasted. Also moving the pawn 2 squares keeps all 4 potential squares free for the knights to move to, only moving one space would reduce the knight's paths.
BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 22:48
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It's the waiting that's the worst part  .
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Jul 10, 2017 23:11
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Amended with this in mind. By the way, I encourage everyone on the team to not use the edit function for adding any new words. Post flooding should help with sapping the morale of White team. Don't know how useful it'd be to us (maybe it would be though? I don't know), but it seemed like a nice little illustration of how crazy this ol' game can get.
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Jul 10, 2017 23:29
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Paul.Power posted:It's the waiting that's the worst part Honestly, 100% this. That said, I'm semi interested in either b5 or g5 , but being a 1, I'm not sure how well that'd work.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:31
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Yeah, 1s should just be sure to vote for D5 to counter the inevitable E4. Heck, I'd advocate D5 at any time. B or G5 are actually some of the worst moves we can make. Tomorrow I'll compile a list of openers we can use with illustrations.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:56
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I know d5 would open up the queen's bishop, but would also place that pawn in jeopardy if White goes e4 for first move. Worth the risk, I'd guess, but I'm only a 2. If we go this way, we should have something to back that bishop up later.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:16
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That's the point. It's an awful move by White to take on D5 because it leads to no further development and only gains really cheap material. We can counter it with all sorts, including further pawn development or the deployment of serious firepower in the form of the Queen and her Bishop or Knights.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:24
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Oh, we've started. Somewhat. Okay, cool. So, as black we're automatically playing catchup to white's tempo advantage. In most pro chess tournaments, all other things being equal black is usually more defensively minded - after all, in a tournament a remis for black is usually considered a decent play. However, we're not doing that. We're playing as amateurs for fun and entertainment, and should most definitely not be in it for the remis. Talow posted:Honestly, 100% this. That said, I'm semi interested in either b5 or g5 , but being a 1, I'm not sure how well that'd work. Yes, I don't think myself that we should focus on too many oddball strategies for a couple of reasons: 1. Ceding the centre is almost never advantageous, and we can assume that white will play somewhat competently. In my personal experience, in chess playing an odd or very unusual play at first against someone who is somewhat good is sure to put you on terrible footing soonish. The brilliant creative plays are usually seen when the board has been developed (when we're at least in the mid-game). 2. While making the LP interesting, esp. for the really good chess players reading, we're already at a tempo disadvantage. Using our moves for anything other than developing our pieces is probably a mistake starting out. Not saying that we need to be ultra conventional throughout the LP though, we should definitely do something more interesting at some point. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The first move being a move with knights is a bad move IMHO. We're making a defensive play, sure, but we don't gain any tempo or momentum of our own. This is key in the game of Chess: we need to unlock as many pieces as possible (Developing) in order to be able to fight effectively. Maybe. I'm honestly unsure if ultra defensive play isn't a good idea here, pretty much pulling a Karjakin 2016, so long as we keep it at least somewhat creative. If they open with e4 though, they are almost certainly going for a standard nf3 -> bb5. If we see a e4, maybe we should consider subverting that. Maybe the so called open defence if we let that develop, a6 Ba4 Nf6 Nxe4 and then move pawn to b5 or something. I'm very meh on that though, because I hate leaving the king that exposed in the followup. Or is there some interesting variant that isn't too unusual but at least somewhat nonstandard that disregards the knights? We'll know by the time white moves the knight for sure, but given e4 that really gives us just a range to choose from. I'd consider something exotic, as long as it isn't like a completely weirdo move. My opinion is that we should probably somewhat agressively pursue the center as a general strategy, with a secondary thought to castling up the pawns - just because a pure defence is boring in the context of this LP. Obviously, I can be disagreed with, and if there's a case to be made for extreme defence I'm willing to hear it. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 01:28
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Just for the double post to explain my rambling: If they start with e4, they are most likely doing this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_Lopez#Morphy_Defence:_alternatives_to_Closed_Defence aka the spanish opening. Wikipedia lists a bunch of responses. The scandinavian defence was suggested upthread, and I can see that, but they could choose to go knight to c3, which is most common against that defence. Then the queen comes out early, probably. Regardless, our options for first move in the case of e4 are really limited to e5 or d5, unless we think of a cool thing to do with knights (and like I said, not too sure about that one, without ceding the centre) or someone has a suggestion for whacky (but not too whacky) fun?
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Jul 11, 2017 01:45
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 1.e4 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 11, 2017 10:25
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We knew it. D5.
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Jul 11, 2017 11:16
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What is the Scandinavian Defense? (Source) This is when E4 is bet with D5. This puts the opposing player in a position where they will more often than not take our D5 pawn. This allows us to get our Queen on the centre of the board without any threats, giving us board domination.  How the hell do you play around that? Simply put, you don't. We force the opponent to make one of a variety of terrible decisions, or probably just move their pawn to C4, in which case we can just shift the queen to E5 and threaten an immediate check and then pin the bishop, allowing us to move our Bishop C8 to E4 and win us the game. (we've won already)
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Jul 11, 2017 12:01
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:We knew it. D5. I'm already really torn. D5 is more fun, I suppose, but e5 puts us on a more conventional track for the spanish opening - and like I said previously it's better to get creative later than risking a possible slower development. If we go d5 and we get an exchange, the obvious move is qxd5 to take white's pawn (that took our pawn on d5), but that leaves us with slower development according to conventional wisdom. We should think up some alternatives in that case. gently caress it, I agree. Let's go d5 and get scandinavian on their asses. It's an lp, let's keep it entertaining.
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Jul 11, 2017 12:01
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:(we've won already) Very funny. The actual answer is that the scandinavian defence is a somewhat unusual, asymmetrical response to e4. If we go qxd5 that's not only the obvious and expected response IF they exchange, it also invites nc3, which gives up additional advantage of tempo to white (they essentially get to develop their side for "free", while we have to move our queen immediately, sacrificing tempo). It's not a good start in my opinion. Even if I agree with d5 for funsies and poptarts, we should think of an alternative in this case. I'd rather we go nf6 than qxd5. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 12:07
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as a Scandinavian I do love the sound of the Scandinavian defense and also it opening up for early use of the Queen and the bishop. But I've also been reading on wikipedia about going to e5 instead of the cool d5. This also allows the bishop to get out earlier, but we can use it to make early use of the knights instead of the queen. I dont really know which is best, so I'm just gonna go with the cool Scandinavian D5
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Jul 11, 2017 12:09
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