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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Sign me up as Canada Bill Jones's faro game. I know it sucks, but it's the only game in town.

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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



If I had to make a list of things that suck, I'd be at the top of it. Confirming.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Tired Moritz posted:

who doesn't immediately read their pm? suspicious

There was a period where I rolled scum so often that I had to stop reading my PM so I could actually get some practice at early game scum hunting.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



PMush Perfect posted:

Is it actually that close? Jesus.

Yeah, it's a surprise to me also. I'll have to try and do something, don't want to lurk all of day 1.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014




I know, I know. Not been having a good day healthwise, fell asleep around 7pm local for two hours which has impeded my catching up.

PMush Perfect posted:

Question: From a metagame point of view, is that really a behavior that you want to reward? Is the doubt that he's not scum worth encouraging this in the future when he wants to look town?

Not liking this train of thought much. It's using a non-game (or at best "future meta") argument to justify a push. You don't vote someone just because they're Town-aligned Shithead or because you don't like them personally.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Jamuraan posted:

Guys, hold on, I'm not done DIVING IN SO HARD.
I REALLY SHOULD STOP GOING SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD AND DIVING IN SOOOOOOOO MUCH AND EXAGGERATING WITH HYPERBOLE AND BLOWING THINGS WAY OUT OF PROPORTION.

Oh wait, I never did that and Somber is trying to create nothing out of thin air.

That's certainly a claim to make at the end of a six post meltdown.

##vote Jamuuran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvJGQ_piwI0

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



peramene posted:

Looking forward to seeing what a thread open at night looks like.

Much the same as a regular thread, except we get the handwringing over the D1 mislynch out of the way before the NK.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

No he was being obnoxious but absolutely nothing he was doing was scummy, and anyone that played with him recently (or in the old days) could see that. Scum almost never melt down in frustration like that.

Whatever, you can do me like you did him tomorrow Scumbrero

gently caress off, Hal, if I had a dollar for every time I've been lynched as scum over just a perceived meltdown I'd have (adds up) $3.50.

Somberbrero posted:

as far as nightkill spec goes i can really only see redneck or jedit pulling that. i dunno though, not going to chase it too hard.

No, do chase it. You don't get to call out two specific people for picking an NK target then drop it without any explanation.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

I have to gently caress off because I'm good at reading people?

You weren't talking about a read. You were making a general case that meltdowns are a Town tell. Which is patently false, and reads like an attempt to earn Town cred.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Jamuraan posted:

:angel: if it makes you feel better, im autistic:angel:

It makes us feel better that you're dead.

peramene posted:

No. Can you tell from your PM that it was poison?

[also god drat it opop we've known each other a year give me my lowercase p]

What are you claiming to know here, Pera?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



##vote peramene

I don't believe her claim.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



peramene posted:

Cool.

As obnoxiously breadcrumbed yesterday, I am third party but prefer to be town-aligned. As not-completely-breadcrumbed-but-I-was-working-on-it, I'm a bounty hunter. I win by securing the deaths of third party killers and then there's a list of five total 3p killing roles.

Arsonist, Assassin, Ninja, Poisoner, and Serial Killer.

I don't want to come out and say "these five assholes are here; from the PM and flavor of "somebody blocking the aisle at a supermarket," it seems to me far more likely that only some of these powers are here and I'm trying to identify which and what and who they've been used on. My PM doesn't explicitly state I have to win with town but that I can, and obviously that's much easier.

I was being cagey to try to draw out information to use to this end.

So what you're saying is that there are multiple 3Ps in this game plus however many scum, but the first two deaths of the game have been VT. You've also been 100% positive that two people were targeted by Poisoners when in a game with a Ninja there would have to be a Tracker, and that there are multiple 3P kills despite there only having been one kill on N1.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



peramene posted:

And come to think of it, I've got my poisoner. In addition to this misrepresentation and misdirection,

Poisoner and Arsonist are delayed kills, friend. Delayed kills that I put my neck on the line to predict. Either they die, I'm lying, or they are.

Or you're the Poisoner.

And Arsonist isn't a delayed kill. It's effectively an unblockable SK.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

No that isn't true, arsonist can douse people multiple nights and then eventually set them on fire. At least it has been that way times I have seen it

It's not the way I've seen it and it's not the way it's listed on Mafiascum.

Her claim is also, if not counter to the idea of flipping two VT from two, certainly made very unlikely by it. There would have to be a minimum of six non-Town, I think - two 3P killers, Bounty Hunter and three scum. Plus, Town would also have to have some form of defence. I honestly don't see there being more than three or possibly four VT in that game.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Flying Leatherman posted:

not to be a bother, but i don't think your statement and jedit's are mutually exclusive - i think he's saying that a douse is a nightkill that just doesn't go off until the arsonist wants it to, which would equate to the more targets doused, the more likely the kills are to go off (doctor can't target everyone)

No, I'm saying that Mafiascum straight up defines Arsonist as a killer that cannot be blocked by a Doctor, only by a Firefighter. That's the definition I've always seen.

Tired Moritz posted:

seriously, how is pera a 3p that's bad for town?

You've seriously never seen anyone say "I'm 3P, but I win with the Town" before? It's pretty much a neon sign saying "I'm scum, Survivor or SK".

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Flying Leatherman posted:

out of curiosity, how would you win not with town given your described role?

The same way Survivors do.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Flying Leatherman posted:

acceptable answer, but that's proceeding under the assumption there's an organized scum team, right? or would this be "the killers off themselves and everybody else"?

peramene posted:

I win by securing the deaths of third party killers and then there's a list of five total 3p killing roles.

My win condition is the standard "eliminate all threats to Town". If the only threats are 3PKs, then Pera's wincon is identical to the Town wincon. Her claim therefore requires there to be a scum team.

TM - you're slightly wrong. As claimed Pera could win with scum if the kill that triggers endgame is the last of her targets. If one of them was still alive at end game then presumably she'd lose.

The important thing is that losing at endgame in this fashion would be the only way she could lose; Town have to kill all 3PKs as well as scum.

She's lying. There's no way she's not lying.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I'm going to bed, it's 1.20am here. My vote isn't moving. If Pera is lying, it's a good lynch. If she's telling the truth somehow, we'll have a lot of confirmed information on the setup and depending who flips we might be able to unravel it all.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



PMush Perfect posted:

Wait what

gently caress I thought we had another 20 minutes

For some insane reason Pig made the deadline half past the hour.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



No NK.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Oh, and we're now up to 3 of 3 dead VT in a game where Peramene's claim requires at least five and probably seven non-VT in a 13 player game.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Tired Moritz posted:

where are you pulling these numbers from

Pera claims 3P: 1

Pera claims to be hunting 3P. It's unlikely she only has one target, so that's a minimum of two more: 3

There must be scum in the game - see previous arguments. Again, we can presume a minimum of two so that's five non-VT roles (and indeed five non-Town). I would also have to question there only being two scum in a game where they could both be killed on N1.

On top of that, you have eight Town in a game with a potential three NKs. There's no way all the Town are vanilla, we would be completely hosed. And there being no NK apart from the poisoning last night more than suggests there is at least one Town defensive role.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

you know, i've come around on pera.

Why?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Mafia edit: gently caress all y'all :aargh:

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Don't turbo pera, please, I just thought of something and am about to post about it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



peramene posted:

drat.

How the hell is an arsonist supposed to win in this setup? Outlive town, scum, AND a poisoner?

My pm tells me I have the ability to douse up to two targets (no more) and the ability to ignite as distinct actions. It takes two nights to kill a single person, and three to kill two. It also tells me I have a single shot of poison immunity.

Either this is a balancing mechanic for arsonist v. poisoner, or something else I don't understand. I came into this game believing victory was impossible without a clear and decisive power grab right up front. I went for it, failing to convince mush means I've failed.

I confess. I'm an arsonist. But what I really want - what seems possible to me, is to outlive the poisoner. To flip my hair and dance and say "arsonist sucks" on the way out.

So. The most damage I can possibly do is two at a time, one of whom might even be scum. But I made two big mistakes (they should be quite obvious now) that have put me in a rather curious position.

N1 I doused redneck nazgul (as he so helpfully did indeed state and as accused did indeed gently caress up), N2 I tried to ignite him and failed.

At the moment - as you can all confirm for yourselves (or lie about<3!) no one is doused.

Therefore: why do scum (and my arch-nemesis) the favor of lynching me? Now that I've confessed, I humbly submit that to do so would be anti-town.

My game's over, arsonist sucks, I lose. I admit it. But I also can't kill anybody.

There's a poisoner, me, and scum out there. Let me be clear: RN revealed that I doused him. He is not dead, as I clearly anticipated. RF, however, is. There's no reason to lynch me today. Indeed, there's no reason to lynch me

Make them do it. I promise not to douse anyone else unless so instructed.

tldr - I'm an arsonist, but I lose. Don't waste a lynch on me.

Let's assume Pera is being fully truthful here. If Pera is the Arsonist and has one shot of poison immunity, would it not make logical sense for the Poisoner to have one shot of fire immunity?

The alternate possibility is that we have a Doctor who targeted RN. However, I don't think they should claim at this time.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Belay that last a moment. It's more likely to be a scum RB on Pera, as otherwise two NKs were prevented. I also can't see the NK being used on RN, as scum could just let him die.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Tired Moritz posted:

oh.

are you saying redneck is the poisoner? because they were very pro-lynching of pera, I can see it.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. SKs and other 3PKs always want to eliminate every other killing role first.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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PMush Perfect posted:

Yeah, I'd buy that, but we can't exactly do anything about it until we know if pera is lying or not.

I know, and I'm sure we're lynching Pera today. I just wanted to get it out before anyone did their night actions.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

nah redneck is town.

If RN is Town, how do you explain him not dying and there being no NK? Docs generally only prevent one kill, and Arsonist kills generally can only be prevented by Firefighters anyway.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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PMush Perfect posted:

Actually, important question:

Did anyone feel sick last night?

Could be that the Poisoner can only act on alternate nights to balance out against the Arsonist.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



PMush Perfect posted:

Actually, important question:

Did anyone feel sick last night?

A potentially more important question: did anyone else get doused last night? Pera could be hoping to squeeze out a day to set a couple of people on fire.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I'm coming round on the idea of lynching Somber, he's dodging questions and not really trying to contribute.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



##vote peramene

:redhammer:

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



There was an NK and a poisoning. I'm guessing this isn't MYLO and there's only two scum. Still, let's not rush into a turbo.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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Hal Incandenza posted:

Scum/SK/whatever must have been convinced somber was the poisoner I guess, seems like a waste of a NK since he was clearly going to have a very hard time today.

That isn't logical. The NK wouldn't stop the Poisoner marking someone, and you're not cleared until you flip because we don't know if the Poisoner is scum or 3P.

I think Somber was killed because he was saying he knew something but, being an rear end in a top hat, never got round to telling us what it was. Scum got to him first.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I should say that I'm agreeing with you in principle that it's a waste of an NK to kill the Poisoner if he's suspected, but that's why it's not logical to assume this is why the scum did it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

Ummmm it would stop them every day after though

So does a lynch, which I thought was your point.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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chaoslord posted:

OK I've got a headache and am gonna turn in. I'm setting an early alarm to try to get back to this.

If there is a Traditional Scum Team (which I personally doubt but may be in the minority of this opinion IDK) I believe this is MYLO. We're at 7, we have a mislynch (6), a poison death (5), and a nightkill (4) to come, which would presumably leave the game at 2 scum.

Other thing I have for right now: I don't think PMush is non-town. They were here posting at deadline when pera survived. The logical explanation is that they wanted pera alive. The logical conclusion from that is that PMush must not be town. I say this because, at that point, towns best move would have been a hammer to find out whereas I think the poisoner could have seen through what pera was putting out there. But the brazenness required to be here, posting, and having previously expressed a concern about the short deadline, and to then not hammer... I just... I love PMush, I really do, but I am not sure she is able to be that confident as a non-town.

I don't think it's jedit, either, since how short N1 was (yeah, I know, he could have pre loaded, but I have rarely actually see anyone do that, let alone on D1), so that leaves Hal and TM as the bad guys for me. I'll re-evaluate this bit in the morning.

The problem with that is that the scum didn't want Pera alive. OK, neither did the Town, but there's no way scum wouldn't act to lynch a 3PK. Doubly so, if there's only two of them.

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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somber's Doc prevented all kills, now I see his PM. Pera said her arson attempt on redneck failed on the night we had no NK, so it's logical to think that the NK was also aimed at him.

I'm thinking that Tea has to be truthful. The doc is dead, so if he's trying to protect FL with the claim he went nowhere N2 FL will be under suspicion when he flips. And if he doesn't flip, he lied about being poisoned. (This does not of course rule out FL being a Ninja.)

I'm not sure about the Lurk For Victory argument against chaoslord. Nights have been too prompt, but so was his return to the thread. OTOH, I'm known to coast until prodded myself.

Preliminary thoughts pending a re-read when I'm home from work: I think if we lynch one of Hal or TM today we have a very good chance of hitting a bad guy.

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