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Parasol Prophet
Aug 31, 2012

We Are Best Friends Now.


Wamsutta posted:

My tastes drifted away from LP, but from 2000-2005 or so I hosed with them real heavy. This news really hit me hard and I'm not sure why. Extremely sad. He was really talented whether or not you dug LP's music, and seemed pretty much universally beloved by anyone who had met him. Add the fact that he was 41 with six children to the mix and it's just heartbreaking. loving brutal.

I was also hit unexpectedly hard-- I'm another one who drifted away after being super into their early stuff. I always liked the sound more than the lyrics, though-- as a kid just figuring out music, it was unlike anything I'd heard before. The instrumentals on Hybrid Theory and Meteora, and most of Reanimation, are still favorite nostalgic listens for me.

And then I forgot about them for about 10 years (aside from guilty-pleasure listens once in a while) only to have A Thousand Suns come out of nowhere as a very pleasant surprise. I liked how they were just honest about not wanting to make the same album over and over again, even if it'd lose them some fans.

Chester always seemed like a decent person, from what little I could tell. And yeah, the lyrics are still melodramatic and mockable, but when you're​ depressed sometimes everything feels like a melodrama. It's just shocking and terrible to find out the sentiment was more true than most people thought.

And now that I've found this thread, I think I'm going to check out some of those other bands too. The descriptions sound interesting.

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BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012

YOU DON'T DESERVE
A BREAK TODAY


Lipstick Apathy

Echoing the post about LP's sentiment. Overwrought as Chester's lyrics could be they reflected real emotional pain, of which there's a lot in the world. Makes me think about how we mock expressions of it.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007



Grimey Drawer

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Echoing the post about LP's sentiment. Overwrought as Chester's lyrics could be they reflected real emotional pain, of which there's a lot in the world. Makes me think about how we mock expressions of it.

That's why I've always been a little put off by the refrain of Crawling being used to mock people. I mean I get it from the perspective that the lyrics are immensely dramatic as is the delivery, but seriously who are we as a society that we think something like that is rife for mockery?

Oh right, The Internet.

Rubiks Pubes
Dec 5, 2003

I wanted to be a neo deconstructivist, but Mom wouldn't let me.

Add me to the list hit hard by Chester's suicide. I've been listening to the new album and honestly I really like it. I know that's the unpopular sentiment. But goddamn listening to it today sure puts the lyrics in a whole different context. A lot of stuff in there that seems like a cry for help. Even with LP's usual style of lyrics.

I love every album of theirs except for the Hunting Party and the one with Steve Aoki and it's made me sadder than I thought to think that they're likely done now.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


Rubiks Pubes posted:

Add me to the list hit hard by Chester's suicide. I've been listening to the new album and honestly I really like it. I know that's the unpopular sentiment. But goddamn listening to it today sure puts the lyrics in a whole different context. A lot of stuff in there that seems like a cry for help. Even with LP's usual style of lyrics.

I love every album of theirs except for the Hunting Party and the one with Steve Aoki and it's made me sadder than I thought to think that they're likely done now.

Maybe we'll see the return of Fort Minor? I didn't mind their first album, and I think Shinoda is a hugely talented producer.

Hell, I think he should score more movies too. He did the score for the American release of The Raid, I think he could do some cool stuff. Get him on that Pacific Rim sequel or something, make it sound appropriately futuristic.

financially racist
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



SamuraiFoochs posted:

That's why I've always been a little put off by the refrain of Crawling being used to mock people. I mean I get it from the perspective that the lyrics are immensely dramatic as is the delivery, but seriously who are we as a society that we think something like that is rife for mockery?

Oh right, The Internet.

speaking as someone who has battled severe depression and at times been suicidal, the lyrics to crawling were mockable because they sounded fake to me. like an adult trying to approximate awkward teen poetry or something. also depression to me sounds more like the cure's pornography, not loud power chords with screaming.

recent events obviously change this perception.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007



Grimey Drawer

financially racist posted:

speaking as someone who has battled severe depression and at times been suicidal, the lyrics to crawling were mockable because they sounded fake to me. like an adult trying to approximate awkward teen poetry or something. also depression to me sounds more like the cure's pornography, not loud power chords with screaming.

recent events obviously change this perception.

I never thought it was faked but maybe that's more a function of having listened to other songs of theirs (My December, for example). Anyway I guess I'm just saying I think it's sad that FAKE LOL is the default response to so much and has been for so long.

Also if you listen to the Reanimation version of Crawling and it doesn't change your perception I'd be shocked.

SamuraiFoochs fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2017 around 17:41

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

As a society we definitely want it both ways; when something like this happens we solemnly declare "It's true what they say, money and fame can't buy happiness" but when someone successful talks about depression we say "lol oh you poor celebrity, probably crying because you had to sell one of your yachts"

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007



Grimey Drawer

It's also kind of dumb as a meme because when that album came out, Chester was the oldest guy in the band and was in like, his early 20's or so, meaning that it's quite possible that the guy was high school/college age when he wrote the song originally. I mean a lot of first albums of bands have material that the bands have had demos of for years. I certainly don't know for sure, and I'm not saying anyone who ever thought it was a silly or overwrought song is a bad person or anything; hell I had a chuckle or two about it in my time. I'm just saying I think a lot of context got lost for people, and it won't now, but for the most unfortunate reasons imaginable.

Minutes To Midnight was the last LP album I owned and the loving SCREAM towards the end of Given Up is both vocally impressive and now absolutely gut-wrenching. Chester was genuinely probably one of the most underrated voices in rock, whatever you may think of the songwriting.

an skeleton
Apr 23, 2012

scowls @ u


Honestly the first 2 albums and reanimation hold up incredibly well. I think there's a lot of talent in LP. The combination of nostalgia and realizing the role LP played in my youth has made this a hard death to handle.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

sets off a "weirdly specific fetish artwork" vibe

financially racist posted:

speaking as someone who has battled severe depression and at times been suicidal, the lyrics to crawling were mockable because they sounded fake to me. like an adult trying to approximate awkward teen poetry or something. also depression to me sounds more like the cure's pornography, not loud power chords with screaming.

recent events obviously change this perception.


Even as an angsty teenager I never got linkin park. It's something about how slick and polished they are that doesn't sit well with the tortured lyrics that makes them read as artificial.

Like, NIN are equally melodramatic, but match it well with harsh sonics. Deftones are slick and polished, but lyrically more stream of consciousness than heart on sleeve pain.

financially racist
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



Yeah, that explanation makes more sense to me as to why I never liked them. Like, I like NIN, but a lot of NIN stuff is on the same lyrical level as Linkin Park. It works for me though because of the chaotic and hosed-up soundscape that goes with those lyrics. This is the same reason I view Pornography as the best musical representation of what depression feels like, since that album is decidedly ugly to an almost unlistenable degree.

an skeleton
Apr 23, 2012

scowls @ u


drat. I really like the polished sound, while also liking NIN and other really abrasive stuff. Just a different take on anguish, I guess.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


Slick and polished seems a weird descriptor when Chester had one of the most intense voices I've ever heard.

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Volkerball posted:

Slick and polished seems a weird descriptor when Chester had one of the most intense voices I've ever heard.

Surely on some level you must know what they're talking about though? Plus, even though Chester had an incredible scream, his voice was super polished for the melodic stuff. He could've been in a boy band if he wanted to.

The Muppets On PCP
Nov 12, 2016



Sir Lemming posted:

He could've been in a boy band if he wanted to.

speaking of that was the rumor when they first started that they were put together by their label like a boy band

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

sets off a "weirdly specific fetish artwork" vibe

Volkerball posted:

Slick and polished seems a weird descriptor when Chester had one of the most intense voices I've ever heard.

Nah man. Linkin Parks sound was based around their use of synthy hip hop drums and effects in metal. plus the stripped down guitar that typifies that era (no bends, no solos, no fuzz just a wall of dry tight mesa boogie power chords). Chester screams, but it's usually an even, controlled melodic yell, rather than a punk rock yowl or what have you. Songs are all verse chorus pop format, not many extended instrumentals or jams. Also there's the deliberate attempt to invoke a sense of artificiality through the insertion of audio "glitch" effects and the like.

Linkin Park sound very, very polished.

Superrodan
Nov 27, 2007


massive spider posted:

Nah man. Linkin Parks sound was based around their use of synthy hip hop drums and effects in metal. plus the stripped down guitar that typifies that era (no bends, no solos, no fuzz just a wall of dry tight mesa boogie power chords). Chester screams, but it's usually an even, controlled melodic yell, rather than a punk rock yowl or what have you. Songs are all verse chorus pop format, not many extended instrumentals or jams. Also there's the deliberate attempt to invoke a sense of artificiality through the insertion of audio "glitch" effects and the like.

Linkin Park sound very, very polished.

I agree with this. When A Thousand Suns came out I was obsessed with the entirety of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZyDiuzpHCg

The chorus is all screaming, but it didn't feel like he was screaming for the sake of screaming. His screaming has a melody and rhythm to it that fits perfectly as a chorus as opposed to feeling completely raw and unhinged like a lot of the other popular screaming songs at the time. It's controlled screaming.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


massive spider posted:

Nah man. Linkin Parks sound was based around their use of synthy hip hop drums and effects in metal. plus the stripped down guitar that typifies that era (no bends, no solos, no fuzz just a wall of dry tight mesa boogie power chords). Chester screams, but it's usually an even, controlled melodic yell, rather than a punk rock yowl or what have you. Songs are all verse chorus pop format, not many extended instrumentals or jams. Also there's the deliberate attempt to invoke a sense of artificiality through the insertion of audio "glitch" effects and the like.

Linkin Park sound very, very polished.

1:55

https://youtu.be/0xyxtzD54rM

The Muppets On PCP
Nov 12, 2016



sounds like he stepped on a lego

Superrodan
Nov 27, 2007



This is what I'm talking about. As long and as drawn out as that last scream is, its clearly a note that harmonizes with the rest of the music, and instead of just ending the scream he even pitch shifts down to another note that fits the song well.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

sets off a "weirdly specific fetish artwork" vibe


As superrodan points out, a 30 second long stunt scream where Chester smoothly changes pitch as it moves into a new measure makes it the perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying tightness or polish is inherently bad, it's clearly a stylistic choice. But it kind of defines linkin parks approach to heavy music and is part of why a lot of people didn't dig them.

That said, a lot of the 2010 wave of Djent bands probably carry around a linkin park influence as much as they do meshuggah.

massive spider fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2017 around 10:14

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Trying to prove that Linkin Park is actually hardcore is exactly the kind of thinking that led to The Hunting Party, which wasn't really a bad album, but it emphasized something that wasn't really the band's strength. Kind of like The Beatles trying to do a raw, stripped-down, "back to our roots" album with Let It Be. LP was at their best when they walked the fine line.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012

YOU DON'T DESERVE
A BREAK TODAY


Lipstick Apathy

massive spider posted:

That said, a lot of the 2010 wave of Djent bands probably carry around a linkin park influence as much as they do meshuggah.
That makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking of Tesseract and Periphery.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


Superrodan posted:

This is what I'm talking about. As long and as drawn out as that last scream is, its clearly a note that harmonizes with the rest of the music, and instead of just ending the scream he even pitch shifts down to another note that fits the song well.

Can you point out an example of something within the scope of this thread that you consider unpolished? I certainly have my issues with Linkin Park, but I think they are along the same lines of most people. Which is to say that they got "soft." They went from one step closer to shadow of the day. I don't think a lot of people liked their stylistic change, not that there was something inherent to their music from the get go that rubbed people the wrong way. Their first album was really well received.

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Volkerball posted:

I don't think a lot of people liked their stylistic change, not that there was something inherent to their music from the get go that rubbed people the wrong way. Their first album was really well received.

Your anecdotes are different from my anecdotes and nothing will change that, but for what it's worth, I've got craploads of anecdotal evidence that there was a big backlash against Hybrid Theory when it came out.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


Sir Lemming posted:

Your anecdotes are different from my anecdotes and nothing will change that, but for what it's worth, I've got craploads of anecdotal evidence that there was a big backlash against Hybrid Theory when it came out.

From people who listened to what kind of bands?

il_cornuto
Oct 10, 2004



Volkerball posted:

From people who listened to what kind of bands?

I loved Hybrid Theory when it came out and there were people I knew who liked metal like Deftones and SOAD and other people who were into punk and hardcore all of whom sneered at LP as being a boyband.

Still anecdotal, but the alt-rock/indie fans I knew liked Hybrid Theory.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


il_cornuto posted:

I loved Hybrid Theory when it came out and there were people I knew who liked metal like Deftones and SOAD and other people who were into punk and hardcore all of whom sneered at LP as being a boyband.

Still anecdotal, but the alt-rock/indie fans I knew liked Hybrid Theory.

The others I get, but SOAD is kind of a weird one. I was a big fan of slipknot, disturbed, SOAD, drowning pool, and all those types of bands back then, and I didn't find hybrid theory cheesy. Except for maybe Crawling. I'm a sucker for the sort of formula for that time period though. It might have been Wes Borland and limp bizkit who brought it into prominence. Like in one step closer where it gets quiet while it foreshadows the breakdown (break, break break), then the heaviest part of the song when the crowd goes nuts (shut up when I'm talking to you), then right back into a heavy, melodic chorus. Hits me right in my 90's. SOAD dabbled in the same a bit. Toxicity is a good example.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

sets off a "weirdly specific fetish artwork" vibe

Volkerball posted:

Can you point out an example of something within the scope of this thread that you consider unpolished?

Within the scope of nu-metal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhaZZNS2GqM

The Muppets On PCP
Nov 12, 2016



for a time linkin park replaced limp bizkit as the representative for everything formulaic and laughable about nu-metal

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009



Compared to korns early stuff I could definitely see the argument for Linkin Park being more polished.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007



Grimey Drawer

The Muppets On PCP posted:

for a time linkin park replaced limp bizkit as the representative for everything formulaic and laughable about nu-metal

And it was. and still is, stupid as poo poo. I'm not even like, an LP superfan or anything (though their first two albums+Reanimation which is really its own album were among some of my many favorites growing up and I loving love Fort Minor) and I totally get where the criticisms come from, but even comparing LP at their most mockable to Limp Bizkit is an absolute insult. Other than the fact that the bands were rap-rock that came out at around the same time and admittedly some of the lyrics can be...not the highest of art, at least the Linkin Park lyrics were SAYING something, even if it was teen angst-y. One Step Closer is definitely the Limp Bizkit-est song they did and it was their first single so that's pretty obviously where the perception came from which I suppose I get, but literally everything, from the production to the actual vocals to the instrumentation displays more artistry than Fred Durst has ever been capable of in his entire life.

LP's music is far from beyond reproach and you can even think a lot of it is manufactured (though the fact that the band chose to release a remix album of all things as their second project is pretty goddamn innovative and original and it features guest spots from people associated with and/or who'd worked with and/or been members of Dilated Peoples, Orgy, Jurassic 5, The Roots, Freestyle Fellowship, Korn, Deftones, amazingly enough Flight of The Conchords and I'm sure others I'm forgetting) just shows the wide range of influences and aspects LP tried to work into their music. One thing you can never accuse Linkin Park of ever is being samey from album to album, and whether you think that's true artistry or just skill at working what's popular and/or being good at putting otherwise mediocre work into an extremely slick package is I suppose up for debate, but either way, holy poo poo the effort they put in to what they did is more than a lot of the other artists they get unfavorably compared to ever do. I've heard it said that some people feel like they mocked Linkin Park because they had to or they should, and while I'm not saying that about you, I've never gotten the logic that "polished=bad" or that if something is both polished and popular that somehow disqualifies someone from being a real artist or whatever the gently caress.

I dunno what spawned this huge effortpost, I think it's mostly that I feel like a comparison to Limp Bizkit is the most unflattering thing that can ever be said about an artist and whether you like them or not, LP was/is surely better than THAT. I guess I really dislike Fred Durst for a ton of reasons and I think you have to be genuinely awful to deserve being mentioned in the same breath. Also I've never gotten screaming for the sake of screaming and I'll take Chester's brand 100% of the time but that's a preference thing I suppose. Oh and Mike Shinoda is a legitimately talented MC/producer and that's the other part that sticks in my craw about it a bit.

SamuraiFoochs fucked around with this message at Aug 1, 2017 around 07:24

The Muppets On PCP
Nov 12, 2016



i think contrived is the word people are looking for instead of polished

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009


The Muppets On PCP posted:

i think contrived is the word people are looking for instead of polished

That would be your posting what with you not even liking any of this music.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

sets off a "weirdly specific fetish artwork" vibe

The Muppets On PCP posted:

i think contrived is the word people are looking for instead of polished

I dunno thats not exactly what I mean. I mean linkin parks music has a strong emphasis on synthetic machine like precision and in conjunction with the angsty lyrics that can make the angst sound a little false and contrived.

I get the sense that what they're going for is the whole, "cold electronic sounds as a metaphor for bleakness and melencholy" thing. But the pop and hip hop influences are too strong to really sell the lyrical trauma.

I find nu metal interesting because hip hop mixed with metal doesn't sound like fundamentally a horrible experiment in theory and yet it became known as one.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012

YOU DON'T DESERVE
A BREAK TODAY


Lipstick Apathy

I unironically like Limp Bizkit.

Oh I will take this thread places...!

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

SamuraiFoochs posted:

LP's music is far from beyond reproach and you can even think a lot of it is manufactured (though the fact that the band chose to release a remix album of all things as their second project is pretty goddamn innovative and original and it features guest spots from people associated with and/or who'd worked with and/or been members of Dilated Peoples, Orgy, Jurassic 5, The Roots, Freestyle Fellowship, Korn, Deftones, amazingly enough Flight of The Conchords and I'm sure others I'm forgetting) just shows the wide range of influences and aspects LP tried to work into their music. One thing you can never accuse Linkin Park of ever is being samey from album to album, and whether you think that's true artistry or just skill at working what's popular and/or being good at putting otherwise mediocre work into an extremely slick package is I suppose up for debate, but either way, holy poo poo the effort they put in to what they did is more than a lot of the other artists they get unfavorably compared to ever do.

Even before I "allowed" myself to like LP, the fact that they took so long to put out a second album instead of striking while the iron was hot made me think "hmm, these guys really care about what they do."


massive spider posted:

I find nu metal interesting because hip hop mixed with metal doesn't sound like fundamentally a horrible experiment in theory and yet it became known as one.

I've always felt like this was overstated, although maybe you just "had to be there" to understand how different it was at the time. Korn's first 2 albums definitely fit that description best, with the bass and percussion being more prominent than usual and the guitar doing all kinds of weird effects. (But they were not, of course, "rap metal".) But starting with Follow The Leader they were transitioning to more of what I'd call "alternative metal" with only a few hints of hip-hop. Sure, there were songs with guest rappers, but those weren't so much a new genre as they were one-off genre experiments. And most other artists in the subgenre followed suit. The "hip-hop influence" was mostly an image/culture thing rather than really being evident in the music.

Linkin Park probably had more hip-hop influence than any other rock band since then, but I'd say they dabbled more in electronica. They had rap, but that's a style of vocalization more than a style of music.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012

YOU DON'T DESERVE
A BREAK TODAY


Lipstick Apathy

SamuraiFoochs posted:

One Step Closer is definitely the Limp Bizkit-est song they did and it was their first single so that's pretty obviously where the perception came from which I suppose I get, but literally everything, from the production to the actual vocals to the instrumentation displays more artistry than Fred Durst has ever been capable of in his entire life.
So the great Limp Bizkit vs. Linkin Park war descends on the forums...

I might rank Limp Bizkit as the best nu-metal band. Well, Limp Bizkit in general and Fred Durst's lyrics specifically are ... uhh... well I'm not going to say they're particularly artful but he had his moments and could carry a tune, and some of his lyrics were pretty sad, I think, emotionally I mean and though blunt there was something to appreciate in the everyman approach to it. The band's instrumentation could be downright experimental, more so than I think most bands in the genre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7k3yCTjt4g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qazrVQxVJA

I also like this revisionist look back at Limp Bizkit:

quote:

Which is too bad, because (and this is the part where I get into trouble) Fred Durst wasn’t really that bad of a rapper. I’m not saying he’s good—he might have finagled Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, and Eminem into appearing in the “Break Stuff” music video, but he lacked their effortless flow, distinct character, wit, and rhythmic subtlety. But if he had been good, it wouldn’t have been Limp Bizkit. It would have been worse. Aspiring to be a Durst-quality rapper was completely attainable. The musical story of Fred Durst is of an unremarkable white guy completely out-kicking his coverage. Like Bob Dylan, Neil Young, and Kurt Cobain before him, Durst took a subpar vocal ability and made hay. If he’d been as talented as the guys he managed to coax into doing guest verses on his albums, he would have been out of reach.

http://www.avclub.com/article/fred-...u-metals-236859

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at Aug 1, 2017 around 14:02

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Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Ah. So it's come to this.

I too enjoyed the AV Club's reevaluation of Limp Bizkit. They really were like the "hair metal" of nu metal. At times, Durst's lyrics and delivery are too annoying to ignore; but for the most part, thanks to the always-solid instrumentation, it's usually fun music for when you're feeling belligerent about something. Which tends to happen less as I get older, but there are still moments here and there...

I actually really, legitimately liked The Unquestionable Truth Part 1 when it came out, and this was already long past the point where the band has become a joke. They shot themselves in the foot (as Durst was prone to do) by talking up Rage Against The Machine influences and stuff, and a few of the songs don't hold up -- I cringe when I hear the line "White kids who ain't white anymore" even though I don't think it was intended as some kind of alt-right thing. But most of it still sounds fantastic; Ross Robinson seems to have a golden touch when it comes to nu-metal, because the band sounded every bit as energetic as they did on Three Dollar Bill Y'all.

I never thought after Chocolate Starfish and whatever the hell the album after that was, they'd put out something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGednQsQ-h8

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