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Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015



Liquid Communism posted:

Welcome to the industry.

Can you imagine what the reactions would be in any other professional environment?

"Yeah, Shelley, we're going to need you to come in and run the desk for a couple days so we can get a feel for how you fit the culture before making a hiring decision..."

It happens to visual arts type people, and video games type people. There's a lot of "send your work in for a chance to get it used in our big promotion! You'll get exposure!" Which would be fine, if you could eat exposure.

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Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


At least we didn't cook the dog.



Fun Shoe

mindphlux posted:

unpaid internships are a thing though? not defending lovely business owners, but I've definitely staged industry positions for free for ~2 weeks at a time, and gotten a lot out of it personally. Could or should I have been like 'uhhhh, you should pay me for this' - yeah probably, but there are always folks who would probably just do it for the chance to do it and learn something / get an angle on a gig they think is awesome.

"working interview" of a dishwasher though, lol, go gently caress yourself.

Unpaid internships should be illegal, same as unpaid stages or soliciting artists/writers/photographers to work for 'exposure'.

bloody ghost titty
Oct 23, 2008

tHROW SOME D"s ON THAT BIZNATCH


You can't eat exposure, but you can die of it!

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
https://i.imgur.com/xhkDqVS.jpg

Goons are trash and a putrid forum culture is the reason why nobody new registers. At best you're 30+ year old failed twitter "comedians" and tolerate this pig because he has the same normie sports hobby as you do.


mindphlux posted:

unpaid internships are a thing though? not defending lovely business owners, but I've definitely staged industry positions for free for ~2 weeks at a time, and gotten a lot out of it personally. Could or should I have been like 'uhhhh, you should pay me for this' - yeah probably, but there are always folks who would probably just do it for the chance to do it and learn something / get an angle on a gig they think is awesome.

gently caress all of this. If they are making money off of your labor then they should be paying you.

JacquelineDempsey
Aug 6, 2008

It's a horrible name for anything really but especially a shirt.


Tezcatlipoca posted:

gently caress all of this. If they are making money off of your labor then they should be paying you.

I put in... I don't remember how many hours (it was 20 yrs ago) as an unpaid intern in psych hospitals getting my MA in art therapy. Didn't even occur to me to get paid for it. Unlike other med/psych careers, this didn't even come with an unspoken "well if it works out you'll get a job here". You had to do it to graduate, and of course you got *~experience~*

It's just hitting me now how I not only paid for college but to be someone's unpaid whipping girl for 2 years, eating couscous made by schizophrenics while the docs all got to enjoy four star lunches paid for by pharma reps.

Somehow, the idea of doing a dish stage is still worse.

JacquelineDempsey fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2017 around 20:47

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

This user's endless pedantry is kept grey.

Key words: nutrition, philosophy, regulatory science, law, shallow realpolitik, fake cheese, game design fanfiction.

Liquid Communism posted:

Unpaid internships should be illegal, same as unpaid stages or soliciting artists/writers/photographers to work for 'exposure'.

Unpaid internships mostly are illegal.

gegi
Aug 3, 2004
Butterfly Girl

I get people writing me out of the blue and begging to be allowed to do unpaid internships. I think some of them are doing it as a university homework assignment. I should really write up a canned response involving labor law and having some damned self-respect.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


gegi posted:

I get people writing me out of the blue and begging to be allowed to do unpaid internships. I think some of them are doing it as a university homework assignment. I should really write up a canned response involving labor law and having some damned self-respect.

I would be nicer about it than that. Just say something like "We appreciate your interest and selection of [restaurant name], but, in the current legal climate, we are unable...". No reason to disillusion them about a career in the industry TOO soon, right?

Molten Llama
Sep 20, 2006


Liquid Communism posted:

Welcome to the industry.

Can you imagine what the reactions would be in any other professional environment?

"Yeah, Shelley, we're going to need you to come in and run the desk for a couple days so we can get a feel for how you fit the culture before making a hiring decision..."

This is the way a shocking number of tech jobs are currently hiring.

But they usually pay for your flight and your hotel (unless you're local) so it's totally cool to get a week of free labor out of you, right?

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004





Liquid Communism posted:

Unpaid internships should be illegal, same as unpaid stages or soliciting artists/writers/photographers to work for 'exposure'.

Tezcatlipoca posted:

gently caress all of this. If they are making money off of your labor then they should be paying you.

lol this is literally the dumbest opinion

I mean loving people go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt literally just so someone can make money off of them just to learn poo poo, aka a college/culinary degree.

I'm all for the more european system of a college education not being the 'default', free/unpaid internships, technical mentorships, learning a trade on the job, etc. gently caress colleges and culinary schools and literally turning people's lives into debt slave labor. that to me is much more what should be illegal than "hey I want to work for this person I respect of my own volition for free"

mindphlux fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2017 around 04:58

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004





and then you have an entitled "artist"/cook/whatever coming out of school with a ton of debt, thinking they're hot poo poo, and being like gently caress you I deserve a ton of money for my no experience because I HAVE BILLS TO PAY, while dishwasher dude is slaving away cranking out his poo poo on a pro level for the past 5 years at $12/hour, happy to have a job.

mindphlux fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2017 around 04:58

Tunicate
May 15, 2012




TL;DR unpaid interns are only fine so long as the work they do provides no (or negative) benefit whatsoever to the employer.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012


mindphlux posted:

lol this is literally the dumbest opinion

I mean loving people go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt literally just so someone can make money off of them just to learn poo poo, aka a college/culinary degree.

I'm all for the more european system of a college education not being the 'default', free/unpaid internships, technical mentorships, learning a trade on the job, etc. gently caress colleges and culinary schools and literally turning people's lives into debt slave labor. that to me is much more what should be illegal than "hey I want to work for this person I respect of my own volition for free"

Are you really comparing college educations to unpaid "stage" work?

If the system is set up to require people to contribute labor for free in the hope or expectation that they end up with a paying job at the end it is a failed system. Whether or not there are any merits to the idea, the people running it are still cashing checks and making profit off free labor from people they are telling "well there's no other way" then gently caress it your system does not work if you need free labor to make it work. Paying someone minimum wage to train them to do a job that pays more should not be the difference between profitable business and shutting down the operation.

Sure college degrees and insane student loan debts are a massively complex problem that is going to create significant ramifications in the long term, but at the end of the day technically colleges do not operate for the point of making money by requiring those students to contribute work or labor for which they are not paid. The money being paid in tuition goes to pay operational costs and the salaries of all the people who work to make the place function. People aren't teaching classes for free or sweeping the floors for "work experience".

Naelyan
Jul 21, 2007
Far from perfect, but better than you...

Fun Shoe

mindphlux posted:

unpaid internships are a thing though? not defending lovely business owners, but I've definitely staged industry positions for free for ~2 weeks at a time, and gotten a lot out of it personally. Could or should I have been like 'uhhhh, you should pay me for this' - yeah probably, but there are always folks who would probably just do it for the chance to do it and learn something / get an angle on a gig they think is awesome.

"working interview" of a dishwasher though, lol, go gently caress yourself.

I understand this, and I've done it myself. I learned a lot of poo poo when I spent a year and a half traveling and would occasionally go into a place, say "I'll peel potatoes or scrub your floors or dishes or whatever for a day if you teach me how to make X on your menu", and every time someone agreed to it I was never treated badly and it always seemed fair to me. That said, as a general rule any time you're producing something that a company can make money off of, they should absolutely legally be required to pay you for it, because otherwise the chance for abuse is just way too high. gently caress unpaid internships or "trial periods" of any kind.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


At least we didn't cook the dog.



Fun Shoe

pentyne posted:

Are you really comparing college educations to unpaid "stage" work?

If the system is set up to require people to contribute labor for free in the hope or expectation that they end up with a paying job at the end it is a failed system. Whether or not there are any merits to the idea, the people running it are still cashing checks and making profit off free labor from people they are telling "well there's no other way" then gently caress it your system does not work if you need free labor to make it work. Paying someone minimum wage to train them to do a job that pays more should not be the difference between profitable business and shutting down the operation.

It's the same argument that insists the minimum wage should be set in stone and never increased because it will cause a certain number of businesses who are already one dead walk-in or food poisoning scare away from bankruptcy to go under if they have to pay the actual cost of their labor.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



When that 8 o'clock rush hits and you go 30 tickets deep instantly, everyone is head down and hustling, and you yell "This is why we do this poo poo, yeah?" And the entire line calls back "yes chef!" in unison.

That's the good poo poo.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



Also on the subject of working interviews:

I do not have time to find out if you lied on your resume or that you are a piece of poo poo. Show me what you can do or go gently caress yourself, I have 10 other people who want this spot.

Irving
Jun 21, 2003



100% true, and they still are rampant in the legal field!

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...cs_opinion_says

TROIKA CURES GREEK
Jun 30, 2015

All refugees deserve to be killed because one of them could be a rapist.

I'm willing to genocide an entire race just because they aren't Jewish.


Molten Llama posted:

This is the way a shocking number of tech jobs are currently hiring.

But they usually pay for your flight and your hotel (unless you're local) so it's totally cool to get a week of free labor out of you, right?

maybe this has happened once or twice but no, that's not a thing in tech jobs. even straight out of school if you can't find a paid internship you're dumb as rocks

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

Also on the subject of working interviews:

I do not have time to find out if you lied on your resume or that you are a piece of poo poo. Show me what you can do or go gently caress yourself, I have 10 other people who want this spot.

It's probably true you have 10 people willing to work slave wages and hours to claw their way up to a life changing 12 bucks an hour.

Have a tasting with your interview instead of making the guy work for days for free or poo poo pay him for his work as a contract for a week.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



Errant Gin Monks posted:

It's probably true you have 10 people willing to work slave wages and hours to claw their way up to a life changing 12 bucks an hour.

Have a tasting with your interview instead of making the guy work for days for free or poo poo pay him for his work as a contract for a week.

A single 6 hour shift on a slow night to see what someone can do is hardly "days of slave labor". A tasting isn't going to show me how he handles pressure, or how he works with the staff I already have. Nor will it give my commis the opportunity to give me their input on him.

And if you think starting 12/hour at 50 hours a week Tuesday through Saturday is this horrific slave trade, I don't know what you expect. Just because you work in a nightmare shithole doesn't mean we all run our operations like that.

Stuntman
Feb 6, 2010

by Lowtax


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

A single 6 hour shift on a slow night to see what someone can do is hardly "days of slave labor". A tasting isn't going to show me how he handles pressure, or how he works with the staff I already have. Nor will it give my commis the opportunity to give me their input on him.

And if you think starting 12/hour at 50 hours a week Tuesday through Saturday is this horrific slave trade, I don't know what you expect. Just because you work in a nightmare shithole doesn't mean we all run our operations like that.

Do you pay them for the 6 hour shift?

yoober
Nov 21, 2010



Sandwich Anarchist posted:

A single 6 hour shift on a slow night to see what someone can do is hardly "days of slave labor".

pay people who do labor for you it isn't hard

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



No, it isn't hard. Breaking precedent is. It isn't a perfect system, but it's being blown way out of proportion here. Nobody forces these guys to come in and stage, there are plenty of other restaurants that will have a nice sit down interview with them. You are exactly the kind of whiny fucks that this process exists to weed out, and that's why I have a kitchen full of loyal, decently paid cooks who enjoy their job, rather than a line full of entitled and mouthy shits.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
https://i.imgur.com/xhkDqVS.jpg

Goons are trash and a putrid forum culture is the reason why nobody new registers. At best you're 30+ year old failed twitter "comedians" and tolerate this pig because he has the same normie sports hobby as you do.


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

A single 6 hour shift on a slow night to see what someone can do is hardly "days of slave labor".

It is if someone has to do that multiple times for different restaurants because those places are entitled and refuse to pay for that 6 hour shift.

If you don't think the person was worth the money you don't have to hire them.

Crazy Larry
Apr 13, 2013


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

rather than a line full of entitled and mouthy shits.

Wanting to get paid for the work you do is being entitled?

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation


So just to double check, you 'don't have the time' to literally take no extra time to compensate someone like 60 bucks for the profitable labor they're doing for you but you believe a good chef (aka. someone who's probably already working another 50hr/week job) has 6 hours to give you for free.

Also I hate to tell you this but there's one whiny entitled poo poo in this conversation and it's not the people saying 'stop breaking basic labor laws' it's the guy saying that breaking precedent by obeying the law and basic ethics is toooo haaaard waaaaaah.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



What are you people doing to change these monstrous practices? Or are you just whining about them in an internet comedy forum? You work within the lines set by the industry at large, for better or worse.

In the past, I've hired 2 people who complained about not being paid for a stage, and both ended up quitting within a month because they "thought they would have moved up by now". That's the entitlement I'm referring to.

It is what it is, I'm too busy running a restaurant to go out and picket in the streets about ending the barbaric practice of the culinary stage.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


yoober posted:

pay people who do labor for you it isn't hard

If that was true, no business would ever go under.

Crazy Larry
Apr 13, 2013


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

What are you people doing to change these monstrous practices? Or are you just whining about them in an internet comedy forum? You work within the lines set by the industry at large, for better or worse.

In the past, I've hired 2 people who complained about not being paid for a stage, and both ended up quitting within a month because they "thought they would have moved up by now". That's the entitlement I'm referring to.

It is what it is, I'm too busy running a restaurant to go out and picket in the streets about ending the barbaric practice of the culinary stage.

Well, this is going to sound crazy, but when I bring in a potential new hire to work a shift to see if they're actually worth hiring I pay them for their labor.

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

What are you people doing to change these monstrous practices? Or are you just whining about them in an internet comedy forum? You work within the lines set by the industry at large, for better or worse.

Reporting illegal business practices to the authorities, for a start.

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

It is what it is, I'm too busy running a restaurant to go out and picket in the streets about ending the barbaric practice of the culinary stage.
You could help end the practice by like... not doing it? You're the person with the power to do that, it would take zero extra time.

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



Samizdata posted:

If that was true, no business would ever go under.

if paying people an appropriate wage causes a business to go under then it probably doesn't deserve to stay afloat, hth.

"everybody else is doing it" is a lovely excuse that didn't fly in elementary school and if you're using it as an adult you should go back there.

Trebuchet King fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2017 around 20:28

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008

A poptart is a pizza.



You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that. Cooks are already underpaid in general because customers REFUSE to pay realistic prices for food, and the cost has to come from somewhere, and that ends up being labor. There is a complex set of problems that leads to the current industry environment, and it sucks.

yoober
Nov 21, 2010



Sandwich Anarchist posted:

You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that.

why not

Crazy Larry
Apr 13, 2013


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that. Cooks are already underpaid in general because customers REFUSE to pay realistic prices for food, and the cost has to come from somewhere, and that ends up being labor. There is a complex set of problems that leads to the current industry environment, and it sucks.

If paying someone for a 6 hour trial shift is going to kill your restaurant then you're running a lovely business.

Samizdata
May 14, 2007


Trebuchet King posted:

if paying people an appropriate wage causes a business to go under then it probably doesn't deserve to stay afloat, hth.

"everybody else is doing it" is a lovely excuse that didn't fly in elementary school and if you're using it as an adult you should go back there.

I was rather arguing the reductio ad absurdum nature of the quoted post. I think people should be paid for labor.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012


Sandwich Anarchist posted:

You guys aren't wrong, people should be paid for their stages. But right now, they aren't, and I'm not going to change that. Cooks are already underpaid in general because customers REFUSE to pay realistic prices for food, and the cost has to come from somewhere, and that ends up being labor. There is a complex set of problems that leads to the current industry environment, and it sucks.

Cooks might be underpaid, but they still aren't being made to work for below minimum. Given that you are in the power to change it and steadfastly refuse mean you are actively participating in the problem. By the way, how many hours of unpaid labor do you think your business has racked up this year? I'd like to do the napkin math to see what kind of fines you'd be facing should anyone report it. According to the DoL it's probably the low 5 figures unless you were employing children to work.

quote:

Wage and Hour Division (WHD)

General Information on the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

Revised July 2009

Federal Minimum Wage:

$7.25 per hour beginning July 24, 2009

Overtime Pay: At least 1Ĺ times an employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 in a workweek.

Youth Employment: An employee must be at least 16 years old to work in most non-farm jobs and at least 18 to work in non-farm jobs declared hazardous by the Secretary of Labor.

Youths 14 and 15 years old may work outside school hours in various non-manufacturing, non-mining, non-hazardous jobs under the following conditions:

No more than

3 hours on a school day or 18 hours in a school week;
8 hours on a non-school day or 40 hours in a non-school week.

Also, work may not begin before 7 a.m. or end after 7 p.m., except from June 1 through Labor Day, when evening hours are extended to 9 p.m. Different rules apply in agricultural employment.

Tip Credit: Employers of "tipped employees" must pay a cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit against their minimum wage obligation. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Certain other conditions must also be met.

Enforcement: The Department of Labor may recover back wages either administratively or through court action, for the employees that have been underpaid in violation of the law. Violations may result in civil or criminal action.

Employers may be assessed civil money penalties of up to $1,100 for each willful or repeated violation of the minimum wage or overtime pay provisions of the law and up to $11,000 for each employee who is the subject of a violation of the Actís child labor provisions. In addition, a civil money penalty of up to $50,000 may be assessed for each child labor violation that causes the death or serious injury of any minor employee, and such assessments may be doubled, up to $100,000, when the violations are determined to be willful or repeated. The law also prohibits discriminating against or discharging workers who file a complaint or participate in any proceeding under the Act.

Additional Information:

Certain occupations and establishments are exempt from the minimum wage and/or overtime pay provisions.
Special provisions apply to workers in American Samoa and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.
Some state laws provide greater employee protections; employers must comply with both.
The law requires employers to display this poster where employees can readily see it.
Employees under 20 years of age may be paid $4.25 per hour during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer.
Certain full-time students, student learners, apprentices, and workers with disabilities may be paid less than the minimum wage under special certificates issued by the Department of Labor.

pentyne fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2017 around 20:48

NinjaDebugger
Apr 22, 2008


NinjaDebugger posted:

Nobody is going to look out for your best interests but you, especially not in this crapsack industry. Look out for yourself first and foremost, or you're going to lose it all.

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

A single 6 hour shift on a slow night to see what someone can do is hardly "days of slave labor". A tasting isn't going to show me how he handles pressure, or how he works with the staff I already have. Nor will it give my commis the opportunity to give me their input on him.

And if you think starting 12/hour at 50 hours a week Tuesday through Saturday is this horrific slave trade, I don't know what you expect. Just because you work in a nightmare shithole doesn't mean we all run our operations like that.


These quotes should probably be added consecutively to the OP, I swear.

Trebuchet King
Jul 5, 2005

This post...

...is a
WORK OF FICTION!!



Samizdata posted:

I was rather arguing the reductio ad absurdum nature of the quoted post. I think people should be paid for labor.

I thought that might be the case; either way it reminded me of sentiments I hadn't expressed in a while.

really the main argument i'm seeing against paying people for work is and uh, that's pretty ironic, right?

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NinjaDebugger
Apr 22, 2008


Trebuchet King posted:

I thought that might be the case; either way it reminded me of sentiments I hadn't expressed in a while.

really the main argument i'm seeing against paying people for work is and uh, that's pretty ironic, right?

No, no, the main argument is clearly that it weeds out people who know what they're worth, something that is the bane of running a profitable restaurant.

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